[LEGION] Brewmaster Discussion

[Totaltotemic]

I'm not sure if none of you can read or don't want to acknowledge what I'm saying:

Damage. Pure damage. Nothing but damage.

ABILITY. DO. NOTHING. BUT. DAMAGE.

I can translate it into other languages upon request.

Yes, all of the abilities have only ever been useful for damage. Any perceived additional effects were never actually meaningful. You can pretend that RJW magically added Chi to the BrM rotation if you want, but it did not in reality.

[stross01]

I disagree. I doubt we will ever be able to come to terms, so it's probably just best to drop it before green text appears in our posts.

[Totaltotemic]

I disagree. I doubt we will ever be able to come to terms, so it's probably just best to drop it before green text appears in our posts.

I have explained to you why RJW has never actually added tanking value. It's on you if you'd rather cling to your misinformed opinion, but the facts are that pure damage talents have existed for tanks through the entire game's existence. Your theory that it's "insulting" and "has no place in the game" is not based on any reality, so the talent row in Legion is just fine. Of course, why wouldn't it be, since 2 of the 3 talents are functionally the same.

[keqe]

Live:

What difference is there between using RJW or Jab? Damage

/thread

[stross01]

I have explained to you why RJW has never actually added tanking value. It's on you if you'd rather cling to your misinformed opinion, but the facts are that pure damage talents have existed for tanks through the entire game's existence. Your theory that it's "insulting" and "has no place in the game" is not based on any reality, so the talent row in Legion is just fine. Of course, why wouldn't it be, since 2 of the 3 talents are functionally the same.

In the past, I've explained to why I value your opinion literally none. I tried to give a second chance just a bit ago, but I was right, again: worthless.

I'm still waiting for a pure damage talent to appear, but nobody seems to be able to produce any.

If you think that an ability needs to be that simple and unimaginative and it's fine, then you're probably just as simple and unimaginative.

[Evolved]

It does need to when it wants to be in the game. All superfluous talents and abilities are gone or going.

"Saving the raid" isn't the term I'd use. I'd say "contributing".

If you're looking at Chi Torpedo's healing as irrelevant, you should probably consider its damage, too. In a raid setting, outside of ring and bis gear, it's almost zero. Even on imps, its damage isn't even 1% of a single imp's life!

So, mostly useless overhealing. There's a fundamental difference between damage and healing in a raid environment. It's easy to have too much healing. (thus all that torpedo overheal) Short of fight mechanic issues, killing things faster is generally a good thing, especially adds who need to die in a timely matter.

ALSO, please god stop trying to sell Cracking Jade Trash on that feedback thread. Why would you want to keep that garbage around?

I wasn't trying to sell anything, I was discussing an ability we already have. Just because you can't properly figure out how to read posts and quotes I'll explain it to you. (assuming that's you hiding behind that alt, if it's not, sorry in advance) Someone mentioned CJL as a ranged pull ability and wanted it to hit 3 targets, I said to keep in mind that the damage had been significantly buffed. Someone then said he didn't think CJL fits Brewmasters thematically, I then explained my opinion of why I thought it did and how it made sense based on our Chi. You then somehow twisted that into a pitch for CJL ranged pickup, when I wasn't even the one discussing that. They were 2 separate things made by 2 different posters, and you're way off in left field making up some imaginary narrative.

You keep CJL around because it's our longest range, hardest hitting ability currently and it's shared across 3 specs. While it may not get used often, it does get used. I use it on Iskar sometimes because I'm just standing there anyway. Now it actually does significant damage, whether it stays that way after tuning is to be seen, but as of right now it hits hard.

In fact, the entire row has always been about adding damage and doing nothing else of value related to tanking. It was in 5.0, 6.0, and now is in 7.0.

I mean, that's what people have been saying this whole time. It's a damage talent row, there's nothing wrong with a free to use talent providing damage. Just because something doesn't have some largely useless secondary ability, doesn't mean it's bad. Xuen had taunt, but you never actually use it. Special Delivery has a slow, but it should only be hitting things that are already in your Keg Smash range, so they're already slowed. All 3 are for all practical purposes, identical. If you put a slow on RJW, will it suddenly become better?

The problem on using taunt to pick adds is: sometimes you need to have the taunt ONLY to switch tanks on boss... like xhul

For sure. Xhul was a fairly unique instance due to how closely those timers lined up for most people and the fact that Omnus could spawn way out with the mages. I know that if I only had a ChiEx into it and it got within my Paladins shield/trinket range before a Keg Smash got off, it was rough. Hopefully Keg Smash will still be able to pull off something similar if needed in Legion. These days the taunt isn't an issue since the hero on pull allows for early taunt, and it's back up by Omnus already.

[stross01]

Live:

What difference is there between using RJW or Jab? Damage

/thread

This isn't really applicable to the discussion. They both generate chi, which can be spent towards dps or mitigation. In Legion, pushing the button just produces damage. Obscuring the ground and doing .001% of a boss' hp pool isn't as 'fine' as people think it is.

[keqe]

This isn't really applicable to the discussion. They both generate chi, which can be spent towards dps or mitigation. In Legion, pushing the button just produces damage. Obscuring the ground and doing .001% of a boss' hp pool isn't as 'fine' as people think it is.

Yes, but why would you pick RJW then when jab does the same thing? Because the only difference is increased damage?

[stross01]

I wasn't trying to sell anything, I was discussing an ability we already have. Just because you can't properly figure out how to read posts and quotes I'll explain it to you. (assuming that's you hiding behind that alt, if it's not, sorry in advance) Someone mentioned CJL as a ranged pull ability and wanted it to hit 3 targets, I said to keep in mind that the damage had been significantly buffed. Someone then said he didn't think CJL fits Brewmasters thematically, I then explained my opinion of why I thought it did, and how it made sense based on our Chi. You then somehow twisted that into a pitch for CJL ranged pickup, when I wasn't even the one discussing that. They were 2 separate things made by 2 different posters, and you're way off in left field making up some imaginary narrative.

This isn't actually what happened. You gave your 'opinion' as if it were scripture. There is no other alternative and anyone who thinks otherwise is a 'challenged reader'.

I mean, that's what people have been saying this whole time. It's a damage talent row, there's nothing wrong with a free to use talent providing damage. Just because something doesn't have some largely useless secondary ability, doesn't mean it's bad. Xuen had taunt, but you never actually use it. Special Delivery has a slow, but it should only be hitting things that are already in your Keg Smash range, so they're already slowed. All 3 are for all practical purposes, identical.

Special Delivery also damages things out of your immediate melee range. I agree with Xuen, but obviously not Chi Torpedo.

[Mokuna]

Rushing jade wind isn't even an optimal spell to use ever on live, it's just a jab doing aoe damage, and it's worse at doing damage than jabbing and using torpedo mid gcd.
On alpha it's quite mandatory for aoe threat because you don't have chi explosion, chi torpedo and the statue anymore (if going for leg sweep which you should in dungeons at least), it fills a niche and that's everything a spell has to do, you don't have to have mitigation mechanics tied to every spell (look at tiger palm and touch of death on live currently)

The only problem i have with rjw on alpha is it's mandatory, the other talents in the row are undertuned, and rjw is used as a filler even on single target because you get empty gcds, in my opinion rushing jade wind should go baseline at this point, and the other talents in the row be retuned, niuzao does ridiculously low damage when to me it was just a reskin of Xuen, he should accomplish the same but he just doesn't

[stross01]

Yes, but why would you pick RJW then when jab does the same thing? Because the only difference is increased damage?

AOE, but my argument is that, in Legion, it doesn't contribute other than that.

[Evolved]

This isn't actually what happened. You gave your 'opinion' as if it were scripture. There is no other alternative and anyone who thinks otherwise is a 'challenged reader'.

That's exactly what happened. Nowhere did I give my opinion as anything but. You meshed 2 different posts by 2 different people and the unrelated responses together and formed it as the basis of your ranting. I said multiple times to go back and re-read because you were ranting about something I wasn't even talking about.

Special Delivery also damages things out of your immediate melee range. I agree with Xuen, but obviously not Chi Torpedo.

Assuming they don't reign in the distance it travels to make it more functional, how many situations do you find yourself in that you want random abilities hitting something 50 yards away with a slow? Be honest here, how useful is that slow really?

in my opinion rushing jade wind should go baseline at this point, and the other talents in the row be retuned, niuzao does ridiculously low damage when to me it was just a reskin of Xuen, he should accomplish the same but he just doesn't

I would definitely be ok with it being baseline. They could put some kind of single target sustain damage in that spot and keep Xuen/Niu for burst (eventually).

[stross01]

Rushing jade wind isn't even an optimal spell to use ever on live, it's just a jab doing aoe damage, and it's worse at doing damage than jabbing and using torpedo mid gcd.
On alpha it's quite mandatory for aoe threat because you don't have chi explosion, chi torpedo and the statue anymore (if going for leg sweep which you should in dungeons at least), it fills a niche and that's everything a spell has to do, you don't have to have mitigation mechanics tied to every spell (look at tiger palm and touch of death on live currently)

The only problem i have with rjw on alpha is it's mandatory, the other talents in the row are undertuned, and rjw is used as a filler even on single target because you get empty gcds, in my opinion rushing jade wind should go baseline at this point, and the other talents in the row be retuned, niuzao does ridiculously low damage when to me it was just a reskin of Xuen, he should accomplish the same but he just doesn't

I'm not comparing Jab to RJW, though.

I don't think I've seen any tank have a problem with threat on the alpha. I know I haven't.

Tiger Palm applies Tiger Power, which is kinda useless, I agree. I don't think they actually intended most of your globals to be filled with it back in Highmaul/BRF.

Touch of Death is an execute and penetrates all damage reductions.

- - - Updated - - -

That's exactly what happened. Nowhere did I give my opinion as anything but. You meshed 2 different posts by 2 different people and the unrelated responses together and formed it as the basis of your ranting. I said multiple times to go back and re-read because you were ranting about something I wasn't even talking about.



Assuming they don't reign in the distance it travels to make it more functional, how many situations do you find yourself in that you want random abilities hitting something 50 yards away with a slow? Be honest here, how useful is that slow really?



I would definitely be ok with it being baseline. They could put some kind of single target sustain damage in that spot and keep Xuen/Niu for burst (eventually).

Ok. Not really, but ok.

I don't give a shit about the slow. It could not slow and still be as valuable to me. You're probably the biggest exaggerator I've seen in a while, though. 50 yds lol.

If it can hit things that aren't near me, it's pretty good. Or if two packs are out and I'm not near one. So good.

[fringemoo]

That's the issue with untuned abilities and asking players to give feedback.

I doubt they intend for CJL to hit harder than Keg Smash, apart from channeling it on Iskar during dead time (which in my opinion shouldn't occur) it has no value.

By their own defenition you can't dodge while channeling (not to mention that CJL is supposed to knockback), picking a singular enemy at range is better done by other means. The current state is very likely due to tuning.

There is nothing inherently wrong with pure damage talents, again the current situation with RJW sharing the same row with stuff that's underperforming is tuning. Do I look forward to picking Nizao for single target and RJW for multi target... not really that's what happens with Xuen nowdays and it bland, at least it has the Torpedo as a choise which is a nice padding ability.

I like the change to expel harm, though 1 orb for 100% of your health pool might be on the low side (tuning).

The funny thing is all the other issues are still present, ie. they don't see a problem with the fact that you're paper thin outside of ISB and due to which you're very likely to prioritize it over purify espesially when it clears 50%, again though it's a purely a math equation to solve for when you should use each and you're very likely to have an addon that does exactly that for you.

Celestalon obviously believes that our mastery is 'fairly' reliable, and that 'fairly' reliable in conjunction with being paper thin without ISB would make you a spiky tank. No progression guild is going to pick that up if the choise is between having a druid and that.

So will it be playable, very likely, will it be a good progression tank not likely at all. Unless ISB can cover close to 100% of the time and leave enough for purify, in which case it's overpowered and is going to get tuned. And that is not tuning, this is design.

[Evolved]

I don't think I've seen any tank have a problem with threat on the alpha. I know I haven't.

Ok. Not really, but ok.

I don't give a shit about the slow. It could not slow and still be as valuable to me. You're probably the biggest exaggerator I've seen in a while, though. 50 yds lol.

If it can hit things that aren't near me, it's pretty good. Or if two packs are out and I'm not near one. So good.

There were some threat issues with some classes in the beginning, mostly because of the extremely overtuned classes. Hunters were still causing people issues until pretty recently. I tried to do the first dungeon when it opened and my DH couldn't hold threat at all. (to be fair I had a 30 day cooldown on a skill and talents weren't even in) I haven't seen any issues lately, even without RJW.

You tried to boast about the healing of Chi Torpedo, and I'm the exaggerator? I don't actually know what the drop range is, but I've seen it nuke critters from pretty far away, even in dungeons.

[Mokuna]

Just try tanking a dungeon without rushing jade wind on alpha and you'll notice it's way harder, it's just a needed ability in the current state of the class for aoe tanking, making it have a cost or another effect isn't necessary since it's already doing something unique and useful

And i'm not comparing it to jab, i'm saying jab+chi torpedo, in the exact same talent row on live, does everything better (except building threats on a lot of constantly spawwning adds, but realistically that's only useful on the trash right after socrethar), which means the rushing jade wind you're telling is useful right now on live is close to worthless, and only used by people who don't bother with chi torpedo

Also for tiger palm it's only useful once every 20 seconds (then again it's a minor damage gain), and the devs aren't -that- stupid, making it have no cost and cd will obviously result in spamming it every free gcd, it's an intended design, and as obnoxious as it looks on paper it makes the class feel way more fast paced and gives a momentum to your gameplay, i'd take a gcd capped gameplay, even with 1 filler, over a gameplay with gaps anytime because you actually have room for optimisation, you know every gcd matters and it makes you think about the way you move, the ways to minimise downtimes, delaying or not your abilities... this kind of things is way less punishing if you've gaps in your rotation

[Evolved]

I did a heroic yesterday without RJW and didn't have issues with threat (I was testing SD), but it wasn't worth continuing with after that. ( was using Chi Burst too) SD was pretty bad, but it did decent damage when the stars aligned on a non moving target.

It feels like stat scaling is wonky right now. My new Monk is back up to 104 and is at 32% haste. It's putting Keg Smash down at 6 seconds, which seems a bit excessive.

[Inuyaki]

It's probably been mentioned before, but what happens when our stagger gets over 100%? Falls into the abyss? If we use Fort Brew at low health, it's likely we'll have ISB up through some part of it, and with artifact that puts us over 100%. (with talent 106%?) I'm wondering if the Staggering Around trait wouldn't be better served with something else.

I don't think we are supposed to use those together... rather use FB to get some charges back in that time

[Leblue]

If I understand what Celestalon is talking about with the timing and usage of ISB, its supposed to more closely fulfill the role of guard in freezing (in ISB's case slowing down) our damage intake to give a breathing period to recover via GotOx as well as giving healers time to get us back up to closer towards the higher end of the safe range of the 40 ~ 80% health range. In some ways its somewhat similar to what you can do now, but you won't obviously be fully freezing your health like guard does right now and you'll continue to take damage.

Looking at your health as a resource to spawn Gift of the Ox and using ISB to keep you in a state that generates orbs quicker is beneficial to this set-up. Obviously the big problem is that taking large spikes of damage to heal back up isn't the first thing you think of when you look at brewmaster because of how prevalent stagger has been as a burst reduction tool and is more akin to what you'd expect from Death Knights.

[Cubcake]

...in my opinion rushing jade wind should go baseline at this point, and the other talents in the row be retuned, niuzao does ridiculously low damage when to me it was just a reskin of Xuen, he should accomplish the same but he just doesn't

I would love RJW to be baseline. I have wanted that for awhile now tbh. Tune Nuizao to be on par with the current Xuen, and either reduce the travel radius of SD or give it a smart tracking feature kinda thing so it will always hit whoever you main target was when it procced and I will be happy. Would probably prefer the latter so it could also move with mobs and not run the risk of either missing or taking a plane to BFE to pull extra crap that wasn't intended.