TTIP secret negotiation papers revealed

[JohnBrown1917]

And if it ever does, reactions won't be peaceful. French farmers protests are already something to see, you can be 100% sure that some cargo (at best) from the US will burn if a treaty like this ever passes, and if laws around GMO and shit like that are even just a little relaxed, allowing some currently banned US products to be imported there.

Hubcap never seems to have any idea about whats going on outside the US,

[TheBeardedOne]

Source please. The studies have yet to find anything wrong with GMOs. Also, small minds insult instead of refute.

Small minds also can't read. The problem the majority of people have is the business practices of companies selling gm food. I don't need a source for business ethics.

Also you suggested sending tinfoil hats over which is insulting so way to prove your point about small minds.....

[Forogil]

Small minds also can't read. The problem the majority of people have is the business practices of companies selling gm food. I don't need a source for business ethics.

Actually you do need a source, if you claim that they are worse than non-gm food sellers.

[Slant]

Considering the fear about GMO food is mostly unscientific bullshit.... yeah...

Also unfinished trade deal is unfinished. It shouldn't be surprising to anybody the US is asking for the sun, the moon and the earth at this stage. From an American perspective, the EU is doing the exact same.

In the end, everybody compromises, nobody lives the deal and that's how things go.

The problem about GMO is that we know little about long term effects. Where the US jumped straight into it and said "Weee, more corn!" we'd like to see how you guys are doing in 50 years before we start that shit. And, we do not see a point in GMO (basically to grow more of the same stuff) when we have literally mountains of grain and lakes of milk that get destroyed each year due to overproduction.

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Europe could use the jobs. And who says anything about trading high standards.

I just need to ask? Are you folks truly that naive about all of this? It's really that shocking to you that in the middle of confidential negotiations, that one of the negotiating parties is asking for everything it possibly could? Who goes into a negotiation low-balling? What kind of tactic is that?

If that is actually the case, boy do I certainly hope to negotiate against some of you people one day....

Uh, if you are still at the stage where you demand the moon and the stars from the sky in the 13th (!) session, I'll have long gone, got myself something to drink and watch a good movie instead of wasting my time with you.

So, please, let's.

[Ravenblade]

Considering the fear about GMO food is mostly unscientific bullshit.... yeah...

Also unfinished trade deal is unfinished. It shouldn't be surprising to anybody the US is asking for the sun, the moon and the earth at this stage. From an American perspective, the EU is doing the exact same.

In the end, everybody compromises, nobody lives the deal and that's how things go.

I am at work so my thoughts are not quite collected however here's a different angle:

Consumer protection agencies will tear any GMO food to shreds anyway and supermarket chains will weigh the benefits products selling like 10 ton bricks against the benefits of selling food people are accustomed too. There is no way that people just change habits or domestic distributors and manufacturers are going to get swept aside that easily. So that is not the greatest concern to me and even the prospects of more jobs would be great. Simple mix of education, supply and demand will regulate the most of it.

However the treaty has been in the work for how many years and for how long have they tried to kept the lid closed while simultaneously campaigning for it here? If it's secret then barely anybody should know, if it's not then why campaign and promote and decry potential opponents? That's what our Vice Chancellor Sigmar Gabriel did so far. If there are compromises to be made and the effects are far reaching then you should tell people about it but they don't. They just hope to sign it asap so it's done and over, leave it to the unions and organizations to pick up the pace and deal with the outcomes.

A lot people already here feel they have given in too much already to the trend of globalisation. In fact people here can be hardly baited with the standard prospects of more globalism, more treaties since they already know the results: Instead of using the yearly fiscal surplus to invest domestically the German government rather invests into foreign bonds and securities while amassing liabilities with low returns which given the export surplus equals about an annual net loss worth 20% of the GDP. People put their money to banks earning almost no interests so they are forced to join the club of risky investments. All the while wages have been stagnating (or only recently moderately increasing).

Also while companies may not (always) win against economical giants like Germany they may do so who are more financially vulnerable risking that these countries are actually the true target of practises which could undermine simple achievements like the ones aiming at European worker rights. I may be wrong but it seems the EU is willing to or being expected to give up the most of its achievements and practises here. It's one of the continuities of history though: it's never the currently disadvantaged who will see the most benefits of an economical change, it's always the ones who already enjoy the greatest benefits and advantages. This is the fact that feeds critics from the far left and right here at the moment.

[Noradin]

So, there is a negotiation: EU (especially Germany) want easing for the car industry, and US for the agriculture - and suddenly a leaked version is reported that puts US in a bad light (without linking the leaked document as far as I can see).

Who would have guessed that could happen.

Couldn't have happend the other way around, because the European positions are a matter of public record.

[imabanana]

Considering the fear about GMO food is mostly unscientific bullshit.... yeah...

If you mean fear of eating them, yes, nothing scientific about it.

What I fear most about them is the loss of variety and the lobbying behind it. See the case of the official European seed catalogue for example, one of the worst thing for biodiversity ever, or the case of the Kokopelli "seed-saver" group, that got sued (and convicted) for freely distributing seeds of old varieties of plants that were not in that catalogue. Add on top of that false promises like "less pesticide" use.

When getting free seeds from your neighbour and planting them can make you both criminals, things have definitely already gone too far. Adding on top of that the possibility for people/farmers/governments to get easily sued by US companies? No, thanks.

[Strangebrew]

Considering the fear about GMO food is mostly unscientific bullshit.... yeah...

We still don't want your shit products, nor do we need them.

[Deleted]

We still don't want your shit products, nor do we need them.

I wouldn't have said it that directly, but that is what it boils down to. A big part of Europeans doesn't want that kind of stuff - and even less the rest that goes hand in hand with it by signing TTIP.

When getting free seeds from your neighbour and planting them can make you both criminals, things have definitely already gone too far. Adding on top of that the possibility for people/farmers/governments to get easily sued by US companies? No, thanks.

And this. Everything that gets us closer to this madness is bad for Europe.
Being able to ban products only if it's absolutely proven that they are harmful (which is usually after someone was already harmed) for example? Yeah no, thanks.

[Dezerte]

I'm not very well read-up on this (and given it's secrecy I think you can forgive me), but what concerns me the most is the potential increased influence lobbyists and corporations can have on politics.

[Grishnaar]

Fck GM food, fuck Monsanto and everyone else who wants to do this, thinking only about money.
They can die in a fire, for all I care.

Also, if you're suprised that government is hiding something (everything? lol), you need to "unwash your brain" ASAP.

[TheBeardedOne]

Actually you do need a source, if you claim that they are worse than non-gm food sellers.

Except they are not food sellers, they sell seeds and chemicals to use on said seeds/crops.

I don't need a source to tell me why Monsanto is a shit company with shocking ethics. I can look at their business practices and deduce they are such from their actions. Do you need everything spoon feed to you by other people?

American companies can go fuck themselves. They have no say in pur countries or politics.

[MCMLXXXII]

A Dutch comedian made a Daily Show-esque program about TTIP last year. He took a chloride chicken as example.

http://www.beuc.eu/blog/what-is-wron...nated-chicken/

[Skulltaker]

Fck GM food, fuck Monsanto and everyone else who wants to do this, thinking only about money.
They can die in a fire, for all I care.

Also, if you're suprised that government is hiding something (everything? lol), you need to "unwash your brain" ASAP.

I am fine with the gouvernment hiding certain things. Sometimes, secrecy is necessary to achieve a goal that will benefit everyone in the end. For example, if the gouvernment plans a massive nationwide hit on organized crime, I don't need a detailed heads up which would cause said organizations to bunker down or hide, endangering the success of the hit.

If it directly influences my everyday life, and that of my family and fellow citizens, things are different. If other nations want to lower the quality of their food, healthcare, social systems, not my problem. If they want to send their cheap worthless crap over here they can go and fuck themselves. Poison your own people.

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Actually you do need a source, if you claim that they are worse than non-gm food sellers.

No, I don't. You want to sell that stuff - fine. Prove to me, without a shadow of a doubt, that the quality of the food is the same as non-modified food, and that there are no long term health risks whatsoever. YOU want to sell the product, not me. Convince me. Just because nobody has found anything yet doesn't mean it's not there. If there are concers that there might be longterm complications, thats more then enough to tell them to fuck off.

[Acidbaron]

GM food is not the problem when it meets certain requirements, what is problematic is how in the US the measurements are done differently compared to the EU regarding stock. In Europe we control the amount of medication stock animals are allowed to get, in the US it is only done so after the food is processed. Making it a whole lot more lenient over there with the know consequences of super bacteria that are highly resistant to anti-bacterial medicine due the use of or better yet abuse of it on stock.

Also genetic manipulation is not all bad, look at Bee's for example we know these insects are needed and in dire need of aid, therefor stronger strains are been released into the wild to strengthen them. The flipside is by us modifying crops we might be making alterations in a certain food chain we aren't aware of yet, not a big fan of messing with nature but we ruined it for a large part already so maybe harm with good intend is the only way forward. So at the same time we might be hurting let's say that same bee population again.

In anyway it took years for REACH to be developed and put into place, you all really think this is just going to go away because some american companies demand it while those same companies have been adjusting to it for years to release products here?

For example another big difference between the US and EU market, Companies here are forced to proof their product is safe in the US the government has to proof it is harmful before it can reject it. I don't see that major change coming any time soon.

[PomPyro]

It may be too late for us here in the states and those in Canada. But if Germany were wise it fallow in the footsteps of Britain and Australia. Those are my two cents and I'll explain.

If you're willing to look there are many studies and articles written in the UK and Australia over the last 20 years suggesting that much of the food sold in the US is not healthy. For some reason when these studies are done in the US the results are the food is perfectly safe. Canada for many years was on the fence but eventually gave into pressure. Which means now you'll find a lot of food products that are sold in the US now also being sold in Canada. As for the UK and Australia there have certain bans put in place. For example Mc Donald's in Britain are forced to use different ingredients that what's allowed to be used in America.

here is an article if you want to read about it
or below if you rather watch a video
http://www.tampabay.com/features/con...-staple/636211

[Krille]

I've been against TTIP since I first heard about it. I can't speak for all of Europe, but in Sweden there's a pretty extensive legislation when it comes to processed food and what's allowed. We're going more and more towards organic food, it costs more but many thinks it's worth it because then you know it's passed tests in regards to ingredients.

Also, from friends that have travelled the US, one thing they didn't like was the overly sweet and "fake" food you guys poison yourself with. USA makes some good products (or maybe Taiwan/Indonesia/China) but food is not one of them. It kinda speaks for itself, we shouldnt import food (or chemicals used on crops) from one of the fattest nations on the planet.

[lonely zergling]

Hey who wouldnt want the possibility of having US companies taking influence on european government / laws.... secret private court rulings.... no thanks we choose democracy.

[XDurionX]

Yeah, now we know for certain, what we always assumed. There´s nothing to justify this cancerous treaty anymore. Any government signing this is fucked.

[Ravenblade]

http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/soz...a-1090396.html

I like that part where the speaker of the government says: The entire government unanimously agrees on that it should be signed asap but in the same statement also declares that he [and probably not a great many of them] does not know the actual details of the treaty. This is insanity. Yes, treaties are rarely initiated in the open but that's not talk that comes from an initiating standpoint but a finishing one, seemingly they want to hasten the process by skipping the process of outlining and explaining the consequences to the ones ultimately having to bear those. Like they are actually afraid of that certain step that they squeamishly decided to skip or to postpone it to the time after because then they could fake concerns. I also wouldn't trust anything that comes out of Gabriel's mouth these days and statements of reassurance hastily proclaimed by speakers of his ministry. Even if he signed an affidavit, with his own blood, it would still be a pristine lie.