No flying in 7.0 confirmed

[Connll]

it's not meant to be feedback. It's meant to say "Hey, you guys at Blizzard are free to stick to your guns and if you do, I won't be buying the expansion." In a sense, that's the ultimate feedback. Or are you going to argue that people aren't free to express their dissatisfaction with a product by not buying it and telling the maker why not?

Very true.

But I´d argue that many anti-fliers, complaining when we say we won´t buy Legion without Flight, are, in fact, saying that people aren't free to express their dissatisfaction with a product by not buying it.

Although I´d also argue that many of those anti-fliers aren´t aware of the implications of their words, and are just repeating the same old argument.

[Dhrizzle]

Indeed, BLIZZARD the company isn´t stupid by any means.

However, I am not so sure about the current developers responsible for WoW. The way they are treating flight (and, by extension, a lot of other features in Legion. For instance, the Class hall facebook missions)

Also, I do agree that Blizzard is interested in profits above all else. The question is, if WoW loses over half of its subscriber revenue AGAIN, chances are high that someone in the top of the hierarchy will want to know why.

Imagine what will happen if said person actually decides to make an investigation? That he discovers how WoW has been handled both in WoD and Legion.

Don´t you think that a few (lots of?) heads won´t roll? Or at the very least, sent to other projects instead of WoW?

It depends on whether they gain almost all of those subs prior to losing them, like they did with WoD. Blizz have been saying for a while that they're noticing more subscribers being "cyclical." It doesn't come as a surprise that a large amount of players return for the start of a new expansion and leave when they've done what they want to do. Taken from the end of MoP, WoW has been losing around 100k subs a month which is about the average from the end of WotLK.

[Connll]

It depends on whether they gain almost all of those subs prior to losing them, like they did with WoD.

This is true, but not the whole truth. For a business, its better to gain the box money and keep the subscriptions. Even if the second is considered just a "bonus", a wise businessman would take steps in order to get it anyway.

Blizz have been saying for a while that they're noticing more subscribers being "cyclical."

I do believe that it was the current WoW developers who said that, not their bosses.

It doesn't come as a surprise that a large amount of players return for the start of a new expansion and leave when they've done what they want to do. Taken from the end of MoP, WoW has been losing around 100k subs a month which is about the average from the end of WotLK.

The end of an expansion will always, by its own nature, present sub losses, due to fatigue, hype for the new expansion, and content drought. Thats normal.

But losses like WoD sustained are NOT normal. It *should* have triggered a major alarm at Blizzard´s command, and I find it highly unlikely that, if the same loss hapens in Legion (proportional, of course; I don´t think Legion will get as many players as WoD at launch), the higher-ups won´t do something drastic.

[SirCowdog]

And AGAIN... why limit flight now when it wasn't limited from TBC through MoP and the game was quite healthy in sub terms? What's the gain to players? Right, there is none. I'm down with AA near enemy towns, patrols like in Svettis, etc where it makes sense, but I've not heard any reason for restricting flight that actually benefits players in general.

There is no technical reason why flight couldn't be the same as it was in TBC through MoP. I'm 100% with you on that. But the players, the gaming industry, and the technology has evolved since then. On one path(the one Blizzard is taking right now), flight doesn't evolve like everything else in the game. On your path(free, unrestricted flight the same as we had before), flight doesn't evolve like everything else in the game.

So the reason why I'm promoting that flight be changed and act differently in future content is so that it can continue to keep improving with the rest of the game. Maybe that's not a good enough reason, I don't know. But it's better than what we're getting right now.

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It is indeed Blizzards game and they can do what they will. Now players can give constructive feedback on game designs and things they want to see/changed, but saying "#noflynobuy" which what the majority of pro flyers say is not constructive feedback, they mostly come across as "a toddler throwing a temper tantrum when mommy won't buy them a candy bar".

Actually, they come across as a responsible consumer who's expressing their voice in the only way that REALLY matters: With their wallet.

We don't like what Blizzard is selling, so we're not buying it. Telling Blizzard exactly what we don't like, and why we don't like it is valuable feedback, especially when it comes down to giving them money or not. Just because you don't agree with that opinion doesn't make it childish. I would much prefer it if people would stop trying to demonize players who want flight.

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Indeed, BLIZZARD the company isn´t stupid by any means. However, I am not so sure about the current developers responsible for WoW. The way they are treating flight (and, by extension, a lot of other features in Legion. For instance, the Class hall facebook missions)

I would tend to agree, with the caveat that we have not seen the entirety of Legion, only the alpha/beta testing parts of it. I'm going to play devil's advocate here for a second, so bear with me.

While Blizzard is currently going forward with the Pathfinder approach to flight in 7.0, it is possible that they've got something planned for later on in the expansion. The updates to the flying animations, while only a minuscule change, hints that they could be looking at improving flight somehow that we haven't seen yet. As I've said before, I suspect that they're watching VERY closely to the reactions of players and box sales for Legion.

Unlike WoD, Legion is being designed from the ground up(if you'll forgive the pun) to accommodate flight once it's finally unlocked. It's possible that Blizzard could change their stance on flight with much more alacrity than we saw in WoD if things turn sour. I don't think this is likely, given their actions so far, but definitely possible.

Also, I do agree that Blizzard is interested in profits above all else. The question is, if WoW loses over half of its subscriber revenue AGAIN, chances are high that someone in the top of the hierarchy will want to know why.

Imagine what will happen if said person actually decides to make an investigation? That he discovers how WoW has been handled both in WoD and Legion.

Don´t you think that a few (lots of?) heads won´t roll? Or at the very least, sent to other projects instead of WoW?

As for heads rolling, it might be that the leaders of the WoW team are already on thin ice. As we know, many of the members of other teams(most notably the D3 guys) have been brought in to work on Legion. I suspect that's a direct result of the screw-ups with WoD. If Legion does poorly, we might see some resignation letters, or exit interviews about how "It's just the right time for me to move on". We'll see.

[Lady Mormont]

Actually, they come across as a responsible consumer who's expressing their voice in the only way that REALLY matters: With their wallet.

We don't like what Blizzard is selling, so we're not buying it. Telling Blizzard exactly what we don't like, and why we don't like it is valuable feedback, especially when it comes down to giving them money or not. Just because you don't agree with that opinion doesn't make it childish. I would much prefer it if people would stop trying to demonize players who want flight.

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But that is the thing, it is by definition NOT feedback. In your OPINION it is but it is not. Feedback = information about reactions to a product, a person's performance of a task, etc., used as a basis for improvement Saying "#NOFLYNOBUY" is as much feedback as "Flying ruined the game." Neither is feedback. A feedback in terms of flying would be "I like flying and I want it to stay cause it allows me to do outdoor content without dieing by getting ganke by a rogue, or by getting dismounted by a mob. It allows me to do content faster and I get less frustrated. I understand you want the world to be more immersive and dangerous so something you could do is XXX."

That is feedback, what you said is an ultimatum. Most of the things you have said, that I read is considered as genuine feedback, however the majority of the posst I have read from the Pro-Flyers is #noflynobuy type comments. They want 100% nonrestrictive flying, not even a compromise like the "Flight Pad" Idea someone (I think it was you) thought of.

I mean all flying is now-a-days is a perk to get you from Point A - Point B faster than any form of travel (especially if you have 310% flying). Several people have tried telling me that it is not just used for travel, and I have asked them give me details of what they use it for otherwise, not a single response. The only case when buying flying and having it was semi-required was in TBC. You could not access several places (on your own) if you did not have flying: Elemental Plateau, TK and its respective dungeons, The ogrillia/skettis dailies and netherwing dailies (required a huge gold sink for its time). Icecrown and Storm Peaks required flying, but it did not require you to purchase flying, it was given to you, even though it was very restrictive (could only fly in those 2 areas) and if memory serves me correctly, at the time, the free flying was slower than a regular flying mount.

[Deleted]

But that is the thing, it is by definition NOT feedback. In your OPINION it is but it is not. Feedback = information about reactions to a product, a person's performance of a task, etc., used as a basis for improvement Saying "#NOFLYNOBUY" is as much feedback as "Flying ruined the game." Neither is feedback. A feedback in terms of flying would be "I like flying and I want it to stay cause it allows me to do outdoor content without dieing by getting ganke by a rogue, or by getting dismounted by a mob. It allows me to do content faster and I get less frustrated. I understand you want the world to be more immersive and dangerous so something you could do is XXX."

That is feedback, what you said is an ultimatum. Most of the things you have said, that I read is considered as genuine feedback, however the majority of the posst I have read from the Pro-Flyers is #noflynobuy type comments. They want 100% nonrestrictive flying, not even a compromise like the "Flight Pad" Idea someone (I think it was you) thought of.

I mean all flying is now-a-days is a perk to get you from Point A - Point B faster than any form of travel (especially if you have 310% flying). Several people have tried telling me that it is not just used for travel, and I have asked them give me details of what they use it for otherwise, not a single response. The only case when buying flying and having it was semi-required was in TBC. You could not access several places (on your own) if you did not have flying: Elemental Plateau, TK and its respective dungeons, The ogrillia/skettis dailies and netherwing dailies (required a huge gold sink for its time). Icecrown and Storm Peaks required flying, but it did not require you to purchase flying, it was given to you, even though it was very restrictive (could only fly in those 2 areas) and if memory serves me correctly, at the time, the free flying was slower than a regular flying mount.

Flying gives me faster and more convenient travelling, that's true. It also opens more content for me which is not an option without it. I would not want to do archaeology without flying except when I directly stumble on an excavation spot while questing alone. When I quest in a group, I cannot hold people back, so again, archaeology misses out. Fishing also works much better with flying.

My immersion also heavily depends on flying, not only when I am playing a druid. I have invested heavily with all my characters in obtaining rare, FLYING, mounts. Many of them come as Exalted reputation rewards, which shows the status of my character in the game. Using these mounts on the ground is kinda insulting, like the red dragon from the Red Dragonflight. They should be flying, not crawling around in the dirt. Same goes for the Cloud Serpents and Netherdrakes. Having these mounts chained to the ground is a sad state and almost heartbreaking. So much for immersion and RPG.

Finally, why does it matter how much time I spend in the game with travelling and why should travelling eat up my gaming time? I have NEVER been complaining about content droughts. NEVER. If I have time to play, I will find an activity to fill this time. And flying helps me greatly with this.

Edit: One part of my enjoyment in the game comes with possibilities to optimise my gameplay (like I also constantly optimise my workflow in my job), which can be measured by saving time per activity. Thus, flying directly contributes to that, besides gearing up my characters and mastering rotations.

[Idoru]

I mean all flying is now-a-days is a perk to get you from Point A - Point B faster than any form of travel (especially if you have 310% flying). Several people have tried telling me that it is not just used for travel, and I have asked them give me details of what they use it for otherwise, not a single response.

It's not a lack of response, it's your inability to grasp that for some people flying is an enhancement of their game play (besides getting from A to B).

But that is the thing, it is by definition NOT feedback. In your OPINION it is but it is not. Feedback = information about reactions to a product, a person's performance of a task, etc., used as a basis for improvement Saying "#NOFLYNOBUY" is as much feedback as "Flying ruined the game." Neither is feedback. A feedback in terms of flying would be "I like flying and I want it to stay cause it allows me to do outdoor content without dieing by getting ganke by a rogue, or by getting dismounted by a mob. It allows me to do content faster and I get less frustrated. I understand you want the world to be more immersive and dangerous so something you could do is XXX."

That's because all you see is the #noflynobuy tag, you are happily ignoring years of feedback that started before WoD was even released.

[Deleted]

It's not a lack of response, it's your inability to grasp that for some people flying is an enhancement of their game play (besides getting from A to B).

Also, if these no-flyers would be forced to use communal transporation system for commuting to work for 3 hours a workday, and would have to give up their cars, they would probably understand what I am thinking.

[Connll]

I would tend to agree, with the caveat that we have not seen the entirety of Legion, only the alpha/beta testing parts of it. I'm going to play devil's advocate here for a second, so bear with me.

While Blizzard is currently going forward with the Pathfinder approach to flight in 7.0, it is possible that they've got something planned for later on in the expansion. The updates to the flying animations, while only a minuscule change, hints that they could be looking at improving flight somehow that we haven't seen yet. As I've said before, I suspect that they're watching VERY closely to the reactions of players and box sales for Legion.

I hope this is true. However, I also hope that, when they actually notice that Legion isn´t doing as well as it could, their reaction will be "how to make this game better and fix up this situation", instead of what we actually got form WoD feedback, which was, essentially "How can we better string them along this time?"

Unlike WoD, Legion is being designed from the ground up(if you'll forgive the pun) to accommodate flight once it's finally unlocked. It's possible that Blizzard could change their stance on flight with much more alacrity than we saw in WoD if things turn sour. I don't think this is likely, given their actions so far, but definitely possible.

It *is* possible. But it is probable?

Considering, well, everything since after SoO to now, I´d say that the best course of action is to NOT give the current WoW devs the benefit of doubt, and evaluate things solely by the evidence we have so far.

And said evidence isn´t exactly suggesting great things for the near future.

As for heads rolling, it might be that the leaders of the WoW team are already on thin ice. As we know, many of the members of other teams(most notably the D3 guys) have been brought in to work on Legion. I suspect that's a direct result of the screw-ups with WoD. If Legion does poorly, we might see some resignation letters, or exit interviews about how "It's just the right time for me to move on". We'll see.

This is all very possible. Competent management would, at the very least, raise some eyebrows at the sight of their (former) poster child experiencing the highest sub loss in gaming history, and make some questions.

Since Legion is essentially following the steps of WoD, I see 2 possibilities. The devs are; 1- under orders from their bosses to make the game as shitty as possible, in which case WoW has no hope left, or b) the devs have received orders to fix the situation and put good quality in their work again, but are actively deceiving their bosses about the real reasons for the game dwindling playerbase, so they can pursue their pet passions/grudges (flying, class hall facebook menus, Apexis/World quests, etc), in which case termination of contract is fair.

[Amerissis]

But losses like WoD sustained are NOT normal. It *should* have triggered a major alarm at Blizzard´s command, and I find it highly unlikely that, if the same loss hapens in Legion (proportional, of course; I don´t think Legion will get as many players as WoD at launch), the higher-ups won´t do something drastic.

The loss looks bigger, because the peak at launch was higher then normal. If you compensate for that, the losses follow a nice predictable curve and aren't more worrisome then past losses.

[Mafic]

The loss looks bigger, because the peak at launch was higher then normal. If you compensate for that, the losses follow a nice predictable curve and aren't more worrisome then past losses.

This incorrect.

The rate of loss in the first six months of WoD is unprecedented.

[Dhrizzle]

This incorrect.

The rate of loss in the first six months of WoD is unprecedented.

That's because the rate of gain for the six months before that was also unprecedented. If you ignore the huge rise and fall that came with the new expansion you see the sub-losses from the end of MoP to the last announcement is roughly the same as it has been since subs stated dropping at the end of WotLK.

[Mafic]

That's because the rate of gain for the six months before that was also unprecedented. If you ignore the huge rise and fall that came with the new expansion you see the sub-losses from the end of MoP to the last announcement is roughly the same as it has been since subs stated dropping at the end of WotLK.

Rate of loss has nothing to do with how much you start with (quantity).

[Dhrizzle]

Rate of loss has nothing to do with how much you start with (quantity).

Of course it does, rate of loss = (initial amount - current amount) / period of time

[quras]

Youre talking about the mobs you just fly over right?
how high do they go up the Yaxis to make this a "challenge" to avoid.

Slight less than what might cause you to die if you fall. I'd say give you a bare chance at all to live if you hit the ground but make it so the mobs there have a chance to kill you anyway. If you take the risk of flying into a particular area. It comes with some rewards but also has a risk. That particular setup doesn't need to be everywhere but come max level it's a better choice than having wow designed with ground travel only.

You would be talking literally every 5-10 yards up needed the entire ground desnity to avoid just skipping over mobs. what engaging content comes from that?

I'm not worried about skipping some mobs. You would never skip them all. Once you are taken down, you will engage mobs then. The risk was death from the fall and landing in or near a mob pack. You have to fight to finish any quest from the ground. Engagement comes at that point.

Wow doesnt have flight based combat. Maybe we need to be able to cast while mounted? dont think so.

You don't need flight based combat but it's partially there in a way with combat based on vehicles and suck. Add it if they want but it's not needed for this particular scenario.

With epic flight, you literally just flew past the cannons in ogrila that were there to dismount you. How fast do they make the projectiles, to account for those with epic and non epic flight. Do the mobs shoot different bullets at different players?

And yet those cannons were always a danger if you let your guard down. That keeps you engaged or you fall. Make projectiles in certain areas fast enough to get you. Make them a little slower in others to present a danger but also not be overwhelming to show difference if difficulty of the area. Make them all shoot the same projectile but they can do different things if they want. Design something interesting. Skies the limit.

Whilst i can be sympathetic with people who want flying content (although i disagree wow needs it), people who just want come around with I WANT I WANT I WANT, I HAD IT GIVE IT BACK style arguments are just ridiculous.

I find it ridiculous to give up something blizzard continues to sell you. I find it more ridiculous to give up flying because blizzard doesn't want to put in the effort to design better. I find it ridiculous to not want flying at max level after having such a good experience in TBC and WotLK compared to the mediocrity expereince in MoP and shitty experience in WoD.

I am not sympethetic at all to those that way ground travel only at this point in wow. Wow simply isn't wow without flying at max level and blizzard "F"ing that up is inexcusable as they sell flying mounts, use flying mounts in CE, use flying mounts as carrot on a stick components to get people to play longer trying to get them because they know we like them. Yet, cannot use them in current content till some random date in the future not even blizzard knows it seems.

I cannot get behind blizzard current design when better times had flying at max level.

[Deleted]

That's because the rate of gain for the six months before that was also unprecedented. If you ignore the huge rise and fall that came with the new expansion you see the sub-losses from the end of MoP to the last announcement is roughly the same as it has been since subs stated dropping at the end of WotLK.

Oh that is why the subs stabilised during MoP once good content was patched in.

Your argument is logically flawed as you cannot prove that with better content the amount of dropped subs would be the same as it is now. You cannot possibly claim that no matter what subs would have dropped identically.

And apart from that there is the issue of retention rates. All we know is that WoD had the worst retention and the worst sub losses of all expansions.

[Deleted]

Of course it does, rate of loss = (initial amount - current amount) / period of time

Yes.......perdiod of TIME.

Also something that never happened before. WoD lost such a huge percentage in such a short time below MoP numbers which were almost stable for 12 months.

Of course the quality of WoD had nothing to do with it....sure...

[Amerissis]

Rate of loss has nothing to do with how much you start with (quantity).

Of course it does. In this case many older players returned thinking it was TBC 2.0. People who haven't played in a long time and who wouldn't have returned if it wasn't advertised as TBC 2.0. It turned out to be nothing like TBC 2.0, so they all left again. These people aren't part of the normal cyclical behavior of people returning at expansion launches and the growth/loss rate has to be compensated for that.

[Dhrizzle]

Oh that is why the subs stabilised during MoP once good content was patched in.

As did Cata's, as did WoD's.

Your argument is logically flawed as you cannot prove that with better content the amount of dropped subs would be the same as it is now. You cannot possibly claim that no matter what subs would have dropped identically.

My argument is that the subs have been dropping at a rate of roughly 100k per month since the end of WotLK and WoD's average rate of loss is around the same, I'm not sure what logic there is for you to find flaws in.

And apart from that there is the issue of retention rates. All we know is that WoD had the worst retention and the worst sub losses of all expansions.

We also know WoD had the fastest gain in subs. Also what's the difference between bad retention and bad sub-losses?

[Dhrizzle]

Yes.......perdiod of TIME.

Also something that never happened before. WoD lost such a huge percentage in such a short time below MoP numbers which were almost stable for 12 months.

Of course the quality of WoD had nothing to do with it....sure...

When WoD's numbers stabilised they were about 1.2 million below MoP's lowest point, a year later, so there was an average loss of 100k per month. MoP actually lost more relative to Cata's lowest point in a year, dropping 1.4 million in that time.