[Balance] Legion Discussion

[huth]

Except more haste = FoE consumes AP faster = duration remains constant.

Single target, FoE isn't worth using, as SS does more damage/AP.

[Deleted]

Well more Haste = more AP = longer active FoE
Also lowers GCD and in general increases AP generation which lets you cast more AP consumers. For AoE Mastery looks better, at least for burst.

That is not how FoE works. Haste increases the tick rate and thus consumtion rate, and since MoonMoon doesn't scale with haste you LOSE uptime with higher haste.
Haste doesn't let you cast more AsP consumers, it makes you cast LESS as a percentage of your total casts. The only thing haste has going for it is reducing GCD of dots aswell as increasing their damage. Other than that haste scales poorly compared to crit and mastery.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Ah, doesn't say on FoE that it ticks faster with haste and then drains the same AP as you'd gain from more casts. If that's how it works... I still love FoE tho

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Except more haste = FoE consumes AP faster = duration remains constant.

Single target, FoE isn't worth using, as SS does more damage/AP.

Did they change Starfall to "tick" faster + shorter duration with hadte as well?

[huth]

Did they change Starfall to "tick" faster + shorter duration with hadte as well?

I have no idea what it does right now, but AFAIK they changed it in the opposite direction. Fixed duration, more ticks with haste.

[Alame]

I have no idea what it does right now, but AFAIK they changed it in the opposite direction. Fixed duration, more ticks with haste.

It does indeed (to my understanding) have reduced duration with haste.

Haste was okay before, as it increased both generation and consumption at reasonably similar rates. After the change to Moon spells that made them instant, the majority of our AsP generation was unshackled from haste, and now haste increases our rate of consumption significantly faster than our rate of generation.

Fixed duration with % more ticks based on haste is how it should work, otherwise haste will easily be our least valuable stat in legion.

[Deleted]

yeah they fixed starfall's duration not being reduced by haste a few builds back, no more double dipping

[huth]

Honestly, i think most of the issues with generation come down to MoonMoon being incorrectly not classed as a regular spell(i.e. unaffected by cast speed, spell crit, interrupts etc.), so that isn't a very useful avenue to consider for the moment. We have a general issue with haste poorly interacting with our mechanics, though.

Which creates issues with FoE and StFl not usually being affected by Mastery, since we suddenly only have one good secondary, especially since FoE scales negatively with haste.

[Cyous]

Except Haste has a huge reach. Mastery is only good for AOE. And Crit is Crit. You can argue Haste is good for AOE (not stacking over Mastery, but not bad for AOE), due to faster DOT ticks = more SS procs = more Starfall = more empowered ticks = more damage (tick breakpoints are still a thing).

[Lucrece]

I don't know. I don't really hate starfall the way it is now.
Yes the damage is shifted quite heavily on the empowerment side of the spell; I wouldn't mind if they changed that a little bit. But totally removing the empowerment would make the spell rather bland as well.

I'm just a bit worried about starfall on 2-3 target cleave fights, when it's really tough to keep up both starfall and stellar flare due to the high cost of both of them.

My issue is more with the ramp up.

High ramp up aoe classes are trash, in both Challenge Modes and in raids as well. Speaking from experience as a Windwalker monk, which had quite a bit of setup for AoE and balance druids are now even worse.

Starfall should be a powerful spell on its own and not require 1 GCD per target before it does its full potential. That also assumes all targets are close enough for a single sunfire spread to be sufficient.

[huth]

My issue is more with the ramp up.

High ramp up aoe classes are trash, in both Challenge Modes and in raids as well. Speaking from experience as a Windwalker monk, which had quite a bit of setup for AoE and balance druids are now even worse.

Starfall should be a powerful spell on its own and not require 1 GCD per target before it does its full potential. That also assumes all targets are close enough for a single sunfire spread to be sufficient.

Well, if they aren't, they aren't close enough for most other classes AoEs to hit them at all.

[Lucrece]

Well, if they aren't, they aren't close enough for most other classes AoEs to hit them at all.

Maybe for some melee, not remotely the class for several of ranged. Unholy DK epidemic range is even huge for melee, and warlock AoE is doing pretty well as are hunters in the spread AoE department.

That was only one of the many aspects of my post, though. You still have to moonfire 5+ targets in a Challenge Mode or raid before dumping Starfall and by that point the targets are already dead.

This doesn't even address PvP where Starfall is most definitely worse off, it's almost pointless now. It's a damn spender that costs 60 AsP, it should hit damn hard by itself.

[Cyous]

Maybe for some melee, not remotely the class for several of ranged. Unholy DK epidemic range is even huge for melee, and warlock AoE is doing pretty well as are hunters in the spread AoE department.

That was only one of the many aspects of my post, though. You still have to moonfire 5+ targets in a Challenge Mode or raid before dumping Starfall and by that point the targets are already dead.

This doesn't even address PvP where Starfall is most definitely worse off, it's almost pointless now. It's a damn spender that costs 60 AsP, it should hit damn hard by itself.

Well, you can still get Starfall rolling after Sunfire.

For PVP, yeah, starfall is rough in open arenas. It can be crazy in choke points though.

[Deleted]

Videos from yesterday:

[Deleted]

still don't like that at some points, many dots + APbyDotTicks-Talent, we will get into the situation where we generate more AP than we can use by casting starfall each time it has run through since starfall does not stack(?) and also cannot be casted independently in different areas(?).

We will then have to bleed AP by using starsurge, but in the limit where we always have a target to viably DoT, this just means that we will be building empowerements that will never be used.

[Nythiz]

still don't like that at some points, many dots + APbyDotTicks-Talent, we will get into the situation where we generate more AP than we can use by casting starfall each time it has run through since starfall does not stack(?) and also cannot be casted independently in different areas(?).

We will then have to bleed AP by using starsurge, but in the limit where we always have a target to viably DoT, this just means that we will be building empowerements that will never be used.

As far as I know starfall stacks, only the stellar empowerment debuff doesn't. So if you're overflowing on AP in an AoE situation, just dump down another starfall for more damage.
It can be casted both independently in a different area to cover more ground or stack them on top of each other for extra dmg.

[Deleted]

As far as I know starfall stacks, only the stellar empowerment debuff doesn't. So if you're overflowing on AP in an AoE situation, just dump down another starfall for more damage.
It can be casted both independently in a different area to cover more ground or stack them on top of each other for extra dmg.

Guess i will have to recheck that on alpha then. afair, last time i tried it (3-4 patches ago) it just refreshed the starfall buff on yourself without any indication of other starfalls going on at the same time.
Getting the additional Starfall damage is at least something, even if it still produces some kind of softcap for haste.

[Juvencus]

At current balancing numbers, what do you do in this scenario: 100 ArP, 3/3 Emp, single target. Do you Starsurge or Starfall?

[huth]

600% SP * 1+Mastery with 18% increased crit chance + 33% chance of 400% SP vs. 252% SP * 1+Mastery + Stellar Empowerment.

I don't think the empowerment is going to make up for the massive difference in base damage.

[Cyous]

At current balancing numbers, what do you do in this scenario: 100 ArP, 3/3 Emp, single target. Do you Starsurge or Starfall?

FOE.

Else, you misplayed your Full Moon. You should Starsurge.
Starsurge = [600% * Mastery] / 40 ASP
Starfall = [226.8 * Mastery] * [3 ticks of 2 dots = 80% * 3 * 2 = (560% * Stellar Empowerment) - 560%] SE = 115%; = (644% + 226.8 * Mastery) / 60 ASP

Figure...60% Mastery.

600% * 1.6 = 960% / 40 ASP
363% + 644% = 1007% / 60 ASP

SS = 24.0% / ASP
SF = 16.8% / ASP

[huth]

Just to drive the nail in further, DoTs tick for 60% SP, not 80%. Only StFl does that. Also, SS has better single target traits.