Preach Ranks Legion Tanks. (Tanking in Legion is Bad?)

[Raiju]

Only when something is severely broken in a way they hadn't seen. All the specs function and will most likely carry to live as they are right now, with minor tweaks of course.

You mean how those blood DK's get major iterations based on feedback every 2 weeks, nothing to do with things being broken?

gg there

[Okacz]

Tanks need to be fun.

But the idea of tanks not needing healers is just bad design.

Tanks should be about reducing and mitigating damage - not about having so much self healing that you don't need a healer outside of the toughest raids.

I think it's the idea of having extra fun with what you're doing if you do it super correctly.

For a DPS it's a moment of glory when you KNOW that your spec is supposed to dish out 100k, but you manage to line up everything perfectly during the burst phase, breaking, let's say, 500k and effectively speeding up an annoying phase on a boss. You feel great, but you needed to work for that feeling with gear, experiance and setup.

Same with tanks. On average, tank needs to be healed for, let's say, 100k per second. BUT, if someone is a great tank, and times his big cooldowns/avoidance/consumables/AM perfectly, he can tank for a minute without a healer even touching him with a heal. It's another "feels good moment" everybody is craving for in the game, tanking the last 2-3% of a boss without healers and then hearing praises over Teamspeak. You just know you did freaking good.

From what Preach said, it seems that Tanks will be unable to achieve this in Legion. I don't know, I didn't try it, but that's what he claims, that you have very little control over how much damage you take at some points. For me that sounds freaking boring. You are always playing your class not to do medicore things, but to live the moment of accomplishing something spectacular, like healing the whole raid after everyone thought it's over, DPSing the boss so hard that you skip a mechanic that could wipe you or yes, finishing off the boss as a lone tank, with no healers to spare.

[purebalance]

You mean how those blood DK's get major iterations based on feedback every 2 weeks, nothing to do with things being broken?

gg there

Except people are complaining here for the sake of complaining when this is clearly across the board meaning it's their intended way for tanks to be.

gg back at you.

[Super Kami Dende]

I dislike that they moved away from the "Active Mitigation correctly used makes you a great tank" and have moved back to, "you need a healer at all times even in your Def CD's or you are dead".

I understand not letting tanks be entirely self-sufficient. But making them completely dependent on healers (which there are many bad ones) is just a bad idea.

[gcsmith]

The problem is, when the tank has so much control over the damage they take, the group as a whole needs to take unavoidable damage in order for healers to even be needed. This leads to repetitive design. Heck, most bosses that have tank switching only have it because they need to give tanks something to do with how little damage they take

Biggest thing they need to do is give tanks to do while waiting for the tank switch to reset. So adds or something more often.

[Raiju]

Except people are complaining here for the sake of complaining when this is clearly across the board meaning it's their intended way for tanks to be.

gg back at you.

And as mentioned, in previous BETAS this has been changed universally.

[ro9ue]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Q1pnYLVCTE

So preach just released a video where he ranks the tanks in legion based on what they currently play like on Legion Alpha. It worries me alittle bit. Some of the specs he rates as incredible boring and really really bad. He mentions how some tanks have very little control over anything and how some of the specs have been reduced to an incredibly boring playstyle. What do you guys think? Is tanking all doom and gloom currently on the beta? Do you agree or disagree with his ranking? For the prot pally in particular, he mentions how if he was asked if it was a good evolution to the class, he'd tell the designer to stop making games. With the removal of holy power, the spec is basically just flat damage spells that mean nothing.

As someone who overall really likes Legion, I have to say they really dropped the ball with tanking. As a well-played tank on live you could really feel near-immortal. Often a well played tank could make it much easier on a healer and let them just focus on the group heals. On my Blood DK and Guardian Druid (on live)... I know how and when to use my cooldowns to the point where I never need a healer, allowing a healer to just focus on the raid/party.

That's a good feeling.

On the alpha, tanks are now built around having a healer. I just feel so goddamn weak on EVERY tank. And it's way too late in the game for this to be a tuning issue... it's mechanics. Death Strike tied to RP... Frenzy Regen being extremely limited, Prot Paladins having only a % heal for sustain.... Prot Warriors not bad, but literally no viable in-combat healing and even your absorb is capped to 90%.

I'm assuming they wanted tanks to rely more on their group, but in a way all the end result is that skilled tanks can never shine. Say what you want about how easy a Blood DK is, there is still a different between when someone knows how to keep up Blood Shield, what CD to pop and when and what self healing ability they want to roll. Live tanks have enough keys that you can play them like you're playing a chorus on a piano hitting the notes at the right moment to either pre-emptively use a mitigation prior to an ability or have some self heals as a reactive mechanism.

Right now here are no reactive abilities or completely neutered reactive abilities, and just mitigation/ proactive abilities... and that takes quite a bit of depth out of the tanks.

If I had to say what the worst thing is in Legion... it's tanking. Zones are solid, dungeons are solid, most dps classes are pretty interesting, everything looks and sounds beautiful. Tanking is bad.

[Deleted]

Define current raid content? There has yet to be a solo mythic kill for any of HFC's bosses and considering that's the most difficult form of content and we are 8 months into it, I doubt we will see a mythic HFC solo until the Legion prepatch. Not to mention, just because Dk's have great mitigation control and solo capability does not mean we need to design literally every other tank into the ground and return to an era of tanking where the only thing that matters is the threat you generate and the rotational use of cooldowns. Stripping so much from active mitigation is redundant because you could be facilitating healer gameplay elsewhere instead of stripping tanks of fun, effective gameplay.

And now, before you say, a solo kill on the easiest difficulty of current content with the literal best gear you can get does not justify being designed around. If tanks (notice plural, not just one) were able to solo mythic bosses, THEN it would be a problem.

Current content is more then just mythic. If a tank in mythic gear can solo the raid on normal there is a problem. Yes... there is.

I havent been following this expansion very closely so i dont knwo what people are soloing today. But in the end of MoP DK's where soloing Garrosh

[ro9ue]

The problem is, when the tank has so much control over the damage they take, the group as a whole needs to take unavoidable damage in order for healers to even be needed. This leads to repetitive design. Heck, most bosses that have tank switching only have it because they need to give tanks something to do with how little damage they take

Biggest thing they need to do is give tanks to do while waiting for the tank switch to reset. So adds or something more often.

But that should be the reward of having enough depth to play skillfully. When they design the tanks around being so limited in their potential, it's not rewarding. However if you give a tank the ability to basically not require heals - which let's be honest, isn't really totally true all the time, maybe for some at high gear levels - it's a way for the player to shine. And there ALWAYS will be damage done to the raid - not to mention just mistakes in general.

And btw this is still rare. If no tanks ever died everyone would be 13/13 Mythic.

[Deleted]

So it just looks like we have to go back to the old ways of CC'n mobs, It's what people wanted right? Harder content & more group interaction so in my honest opinion this may be a step in the right direction.

People wanted things harder, but not in the way it seems to be now. What's the point of making things harder if you simply bring the overall skill cap for a certain role lower than it was before?

Also don't really see the point in him making a video like this so early. I was still holding out for hope for some major changes, otherwise the game is going to be even worse than I thought.

[gcsmith]

But that should be the reward of having enough depth to play skillfully. When they design the tanks around being so limited in their potential, it's not rewarding. However if you give a tank the ability to basically not require heals - which let's be honest, isn't really totally true all the time, maybe for some at high gear levels - it's a way for the player to shine. And there ALWAYS will be damage done to the raid - not to mention just mistakes in general.

The problem is, if they they make it so tanks literally take no damage, then A)Fights must have unavoidable aoe damage all the time, otherwise a fight is literally dull for the healers. B) Most of this damage happens to melee dps...

the big problem atm, is that the Active mitigation isn't as good as it should be to go along with this change.

[Raiju]

Current content is more then just mythic. If a tank in mythic gear can solo the raid on normal there is a problem. Yes... there is.

I havent been following this expansion very closely so i dont knwo what people are soloing today. But in the end of MoP DK's where soloing Garrosh

In the 6.0 patch, which is completely irrelevant. The method to solo was very impressive as well (spell stealing and perfectly killing every wave of adds all at once)

[Raugnaut]

I miss MoP tanking for all 5 of the tank specs. Hated WoD simply because they nerfed the overall power of tanks. Legion is further nerfs to tanks, and complete reworks of everyone but warriors. It also crushed my hopes for Dark Apotheosis warlock tanking. If Legion does not have more content then MoP did, both in PvP and PvE, I'll be done with WoW, since it means that the developers of the game would be unable to make even a C-rank game if they didn't have all the resources at Blizzard behind them.

[Arrowset]

The amount of damage Celestalon has done to this game with his class changes is incredible. I quit the game (retail, anyway- still play private servers) because of his dumbing down of classes.

[Spunt]

The amount of damage Celestalon has done to this game with his class changes is incredible. I quit the game (retail, anyway- still play private servers) because of his dumbing down of classes.

Replace Kalgon or Ghostcrawler with Celaston and you're just like the millions of other whiny people who complain about this game.

Grats on pirating I guess?

[Deleted]

In the 6.0 patch, which is completely irrelevant. The method to solo was very impressive as well (spell stealing and perfectly killing every wave of adds all at once)

As i said i dont follow this expansion so i dont know what its like know(could be equally bad) but as long as one boss from current tier can be soloed i think its a sign of a broken game.

Give me a video of someone soloing a boss in Vanilla(besides the buggy paladin one obviously)

[Deleted]

has this "important youtuber" ever said any positive about wow?...oh right that would create any buzz....

[Deleted]

Alpha is alpha.

And therefore the best time to provide feedback and voice concerns over class changes/playstyle.

[Spunt]

They said long before alpha started that this is what they wanted. They don't want tanks to be 100% self reliant.

[Deliverer]

Current content is more then just mythic. If a tank in mythic gear can solo the raid on normal there is a problem. Yes... there is.

I havent been following this expansion very closely so i dont knwo what people are soloing today. But in the end of MoP DK's where soloing Garrosh

That just shows how low tuned was garrosh on flex difficulty compared to garrosh on old heroic difficulty. Mione the dk we talking about was overgearing flex mode content by far.