[MARKSMANSHIP]Legion Alpha Discussion

[Deleted]

It doesn't look fun. In fact I can ditch my keyboard and do the rotation on pedals under my feet. On a single target situation it would suffice with 5 button mouse.

I've tested few Legion dungeons and its boring and no fun to play. Long story short they dumbed down MM hunter even more, no chimaera shot, no kill shot, no traps. Aimed shot is not possible to cast while moving. Sniper training buff was IMO a LOT better.

In pve i think its a way easier to manage ur aimed shot than the "old" mastery.

[Solidito]

It doesn't look fun. In fact I can ditch my keyboard and do the rotation on pedals under my feet. On a single target situation it would suffice with 5 button mouse.

I've tested few Legion dungeons and its boring and no fun to play. Long story short they dumbed down MM hunter even more, no chimaera shot, no kill shot, no traps. Aimed shot is not possible to cast while moving. Sniper training buff was IMO a LOT better.

I feel like you're just hating on it for the sake of hating on it. I did the exact same thing as you were, I was so pissed off I just kept hating on it. Yes those abilities have gone, we have more from the talents though to make up for it.

It has more to it than MM does currently on Live, is it hard to play? Doesn't seem so (could be wrong, haven't tried myself), seems more engaging than Live though from what I can tell, doesn't take much to do that though.

[Bepples]

In pve i think its a way easier to manage ur aimed shot than the "old" mastery.

Damn right it's easier to manage. On live you can move and keep track of the buff (or, if needed, you can keep moving and suffer a DPS penalty). On Alpha you just don't move at all. It complements the 3-button rotation with totally automatic cleave perfectly. Apparently live Marksman was just too complicated so they removed most of the utility and passive mechanics e.g. Careful Aim and canned the priority-based ability set in favour of a rotational one. And you'll certainly never have to worry about moving again because that's getting canned too. But don't worry; it's not all a bunch of nerfs. It's all for the CLASS FANTASY: apparently every Marksman hunter just wished they were playing a frost/arcane mage instead so they are making Marksman just like those specs. After all, we all definitely rolled a class that has no mana and does primarily physical damage/instant casts because we wanted to play a fucking caster, right?

[Deleted]

I have to agree with some of the criticisms people have said. I have access to the alpha, and have been playing a lot of the different classes as I’m just not happy with how the Hunter is playing. What I love about the Hunter on live is the fast pace none stop type of gameplay. I LIKE that we have a way to control our focus and the ebb and flow of building and spending. I LIKE that we are able to move and DPS with little downside but this, I can understand them wanting to change to bring in line with others. What I can’t understand is why they felt the need to completely change all three of the specs SO much.

People who play Hunter must like the gameplay aspect of it. MM just doesn’t feel anywhere near as fun to me. The sidewinder build has downtime which I detest; the lack of downtime and freedom was why I liked playing the Hunter in the first place. I’m sure with better gear and more haste the downtime will be minimised, but still, I just hate it. I enjoy the Lock n Load style of play much more but still, I don’t understand why they felt the class needed changing so much.

The new explosive shot isn’t something I’m interested in as I’m a very spammy type of player and it just feels like it breaks up my rhythm. If it went live now I would be happy enough playing MM. But BM?????? and SV…… I’m genuinely sad with what has happened to this class

[Deleted]

It doesn't look fun. In fact I can ditch my keyboard and do the rotation on pedals under my feet. On a single target situation it would suffice with 5 button mouse.

I've tested few Legion dungeons and its boring and no fun to play. Long story short they dumbed down MM hunter even more, no chimaera shot, no kill shot, no traps. Aimed shot is not possible to cast while moving. Sniper training buff was IMO a LOT better.

Not sure why you'd consider chimera/killshot "more" fun or "complex" than what we have in legion right now.
Ya, cool, careful aim/low HP sniping... great. Dunno, it's not something that will make or break a spec for me.
As for Sniper training, I guess it's either like it or hate it, I personally detest the mechanic around it and I'd prefer turret skills + instant CDs for movement similiar to what we had in WotLK. (not saying that this is what we get in Legion)
In the end it's pretty much the same, stay still to cast high dps skills vs. don't move to recieve a buff that will increase your dps. Option 2 is obviously more versatile though (yet, I don't like the idea having a stat tied to it).

[kaminaris]

Because its not fun to play something that can do a goddamn perfect rotation on one button in GnomeSequencer.
It is THREE buttons, guys, 3 buttons.

In the end it's pretty much the same, stay still to cast high dps skills vs. don't move to recieve a buff that will increase your dps.

Its not the same, with sniper training when i saw a sh*t coming at me, i moved a little and still FINISHED a cast without loosing dps. On alpha I simply can't do that.
I have to either: pray to RNJesus to grant me marked shot 2 times in a row or stop a cast by moving a little.

It was fun to maximize Sniper training uptime. Having to choose between getting shot in the face or loosing dps is not fun at all. We don't have Ice Floes like mages do. We don't have any decent filler. We just need to stop the cast and move along.

Sidewinders with downtime/telephone pole makes you want to punch blizz guy who designed it in the face thru TCP/IP.

I feel like you're just hating on it for the sake of hating on it.

No I don't. In fact i never liked MM in the first place. BM seems a lot more appealing to me. I clearly see they turned hunter MM into a worse version of mage with a bow, without utility, without a way to avoid damage/dps loss.

[Deleted]

Because its not fun to play something that can do a goddamn perfect rotation on one button in GnomeSequencer.
It is THREE buttons, guys, 3 buttons.

So is MMs core rotation right now too, where is the problem.

Beta:

Arcane/Sidewinders/Multi, Marked, Aimed, Windburst

Live:

Steady, Chim, Aimed, Killshot (only <35%)

[Youn]

Because its not fun to play something that can do a goddamn perfect rotation on one button in GnomeSequencer.
It is THREE buttons, guys, 3 buttons.

Let's be honest. Only rogue is hard to do in something like GnomeSequencer. New hunter rotation would look like:

[[/cast [nochanneling] Windburst]],
[[/cast [nochanneling] Aimed Shot]],
[[/cast [nochanneling] Marked Shot]],
[[/cast [nochanneling] Sidewinders]],

As it would press 1,1,2,1,2,3,1,2,3,4 repeat. Your second button would be barrage. If you pushed that button at least 1 time every .25 seconds it would fire things off in a semi-decent rotation. You would probably hit middle of the pack. With Marked shot and Sidewinders as the only shots able to be used on the move, you could even continue to move while pressing that key over and over.

Now, having said that you would definitely be in the middle to low end of the dps for your gear. As your pretty much firing things off at random. Instead of making real decisions.

[Deleted]

I have to agree with some of the criticisms people have said. I have access to the alpha, and have been playing a lot of the different classes as I’m just not happy with how the Hunter is playing. What I love about the Hunter on live is the fast pace none stop type of gameplay. I LIKE that we have a way to control our focus and the ebb and flow of building and spending. I LIKE that we are able to move and DPS with little downside but this, I can understand them wanting to change to bring in line with others. What I can’t understand is why they felt the need to completely change all three of the specs SO much.

People who play Hunter must like the gameplay aspect of it. MM just doesn’t feel anywhere near as fun to me. The sidewinder build has downtime which I detest; the lack of downtime and freedom was why I liked playing the Hunter in the first place. I’m sure with better gear and more haste the downtime will be minimised, but still, I just hate it. I enjoy the Lock n Load style of play much more but still, I don’t understand why they felt the class needed changing so much.

The new explosive shot isn’t something I’m interested in as I’m a very spammy type of player and it just feels like it breaks up my rhythm. If it went live now I would be happy enough playing MM. But BM?????? and SV…… I’m genuinely sad with what has happened to this class

I feel the exact same way and enjoy MM on live (although it's too simple for my liking) for the very same reason as you. It's why I loved MoP Destro.
Im thinking the elemental Shaman seems to have this constant eb and flow type of game play now, would you recommend it as a good alternative or have you tested?

[Deleted]

I feel the exact same way and enjoy MM on live (although it's too simple for my liking) for the very same reason as you. It's why I loved MoP Destro.
Im thinking the elemental Shaman seems to have this constant eb and flow type of game play now, would you recommend it as a good alternative or have you tested?

I have actually played the Ele Shaman. I've currently been testing Mage (all specs), Warlock (all specs) and Shaman (Enhance and Ele). Out of those classes I've enjoyed Ele shaman and Demo/Destro Warlock the most. Those three specs allow you to constantly build your resource and offer you choices when spending it. Demo Lock in particular has some good talent choices which change up the gameplay and I would say the Ele shaman does also. I think Ele shaman is incredibly fun and honestly quite fast paced with the amount of instant Lava Bursts you get, the instant Earth Quakes which you can use your resource on and your shocks.

As it is now, I just don't see anything that makes me want to stick with a Hunter over other ranged classes. On live, the mobility, good target switching, execute and overall fast game play is a big draw. I've been a fan of BM since SoO and I found that to be fast paced and enjoyable type of gameplay which revolved around your pet. The current specs don't retain these characteristics at all in my opinion. I also don't enjoy that our builder is instant, I thought it felt much better when the builder was a cast time and the spender was instant but I suppose that's personal preference. For MM, I'd love to see Steady Shot brought back but we couldn't cast it while moving, marked shot to stay but aimed shots would be instant after the target is marked. Windburst being able to be cast on the move again. That would make the flow of the class feel much better in my opinion. Or even just make lock n load baseline.

[kaminaris]

Future of hunter MM?


So. What are the options to reroll here? Ele sham? Tried it just once, looks promising.

[Bepples]

So is MMs core rotation right now too, where is the problem.

Beta:

Arcane/Sidewinders/Multi, Marked, Aimed, Windburst

Live:

Steady, Chim, Aimed, Killshot (only <35%)

MM's current ability set is priority based: you use Chim on cooldown, Kill Shot below 35% on cooldown, Aimed Shot to dump focus. Steady Shot to gain focus.

MM's alpha ability set is rotational: Use arcane shot until you get hunter's mark, use Marked Shot when it becomes available and then use three Aimed Shots. The only variation is to use Windburst if you need deadeye before your next Marked Shot (usually on the start of the pull and in response to anything that causes Deadeye to run out before your next Marked Shot).

On Live you have to maximise your DPS by exploiting Careful Aim when priority adds spawn whereas on Alpha your AoE is largely automatic with Sidewinders/Multi-shot marking all the targets, Marked Shot hitting all marked targets and the Trick Shot talent causing Aimed Shot to hit all vulnerable targets. Worse: you are actively PUNISHED for target switching on alpha due to mechanics like Marked For Death. And, of course, punishment for moving is far more severe now.

Also, the new Hunter's Mark on auto-shot change has the potential to cause downtime in the rotation with Sidewinders. It might not be much downtime, but it's a lot compared to the ZERO downtime we have on live.

So on Live you have a fast-paced, mobile, priority-based spec with no active sustained AoE but good target swapping ability. On Alpha you have a rotational-based spec with low mobility and penalties for target swapping with largely automatic AoE and potential rotational downtimes. It is a BIG step backwards.

- - - Updated - - -

Not sure why you'd consider chimera/killshot "more" fun or "complex" than what we have in legion right now.
Ya, cool, careful aim/low HP sniping... great. Dunno, it's not something that will make or break a spec for me.

Because it's priority based, meaning you have to better understand what each ability does and how/when to use them. Alpha MM is largely a static rotation. The only real complexity is ensuring that you fit 3 aimed shots and a marked shot in the Deadeye window, which again arguably boils down to following rotation.

As for Sniper training, I guess it's either like it or hate it, I personally detest the mechanic around it and I'd prefer turret skills + instant CDs for movement similiar to what we had in WotLK. (not saying that this is what we get in Legion)

If you prefer a playstyle much more similar to that of a caster, why don't you play a caster instead? Why do you want hunters to turn into casters? As someone who prefers a more versatile, mobile ranged DPS, my options are FAR more limited than yours.

In the end it's pretty much the same, stay still to cast high dps skills vs. don't move to recieve a buff that will increase your dps. Option 2 is obviously more versatile though (yet, I don't like the idea having a stat tied to it).

You begin with "it's pretty much the same" and then end with talking about how it's not the same at all. I can finish casting an aimed shot while moving (if I didn't have the T18 4-set, that is) while moving on Live, my casting is cancelled on Alpha.

On Live I can move for 3 seconds before losing DPS, and what I lose is a ~+10% damage done and +10% crit damage buff. On Alpha it's different, because there are periods in the rotation where you are using instant casts and periods where you are casting Aimed Shot. Those Aimed Shot periods are critical to your damage output so moving at all during them is a big DPS loss. At 50% haste you will be casting about 19 Aimed Shots per minute and the cast time is 1.33 seconds, so your total time spent casting Aimed Shot each minute is 25 seconds. Yeah yeah, rough napkin math, but you can see that we are immobile for about half our rotation. Consider that we also have Windburst casts as well. This is a far more severe mobility restriction. Losing sniper training makes you do less damage but you can still use all of your abilities while moving; you cannot use the ability that makes up a huge amount of your DPS while moving on Alpha. That is a clear nerf.

[Ifritlol]

You guys sound so fuckin' dumb with this "3 BUTTON OMG". Feels like all you guys are Paragon level raiders or even better. Myabe you feel it's simple spec because you stans in front of dummy and fuckin' stare at your action button panel all the time? Have you attended on mythic raid tests? There is so much shit going on, you will say thank you to Blizzard once you will be progressing. Maibe you think it's good to play piano "rotation", but it probably means that you will fuck up more often during progression and you will fuck up in encounters mechanic wise, because you were too engaged in your "super fun-ten buttons-eleven buffs-twelve prosc-100 debuffs rotation".

Mark my words, like always, there will be those who use class potencial on 100% (there is still focus managment, CD managment, knowing when to switch and how to switch, maximising debuffs uptime) and be on top of WoL and those who "omg 3 button I will play with my left foot" and will be in the middle of the pack.

[kaminaris]

Dude did you even read what we wrote? That is not gonna happen unless RNJesus loves you too much. Simply because:

Aimed Shot periods are critical to your damage output so moving at all during them is a big DPS loss. At 50% haste you will be casting about 19 Aimed Shots per minute and the cast time is 1.33 seconds, so your total time spent casting Aimed Shot each minute is 25 seconds.

And lets say that you don't have any spell procs but BL is up, your trinket just proccd and a goddamn fire is coming to your face. Well GG, dps lost.

So if RNJesus loves the left-foot-3-button-guy he will be doing MORE dps than you trying to play perfectly.


Ever been on some heroic dungeon where you are not fighting patchwerk? If you have procs and then you suddenly need to move you can't do a damn thing unless marked shot/lock and load procs. If they don't you are screwed. If you took Sidewindes, recently used them with marked shot and fire is coming to your face say goodbye to deadeye. 6 seconds of doing NOTHING (and pray it wasn't that window with dead time).

The only thing i can think of is having that legendary piece that enables you casting while turtle shell (should be named like this) is active but then again you won't have it when you will really need it.

[Bepples]

Sidewinders cool down drops with haste along with it. I could see this being an issue but i haven't had time to really test it this iteration.

Judging by feedback on the class forums your fears have been confirmed. There is now significant downtime if you get unlucky with Hunter's Mark proccing and sidewinders; sometimes you have to wait with a Sidewinders off cooldown until the right Auto Shot. So much for "literally no gameplay change". This is atrocious design which once again proves that Celestalon is completely inept when dealing with hunters. It's baffling how he can be so condescending in his post even when he is so clearly and utterly wrong.

[Deleted]

I have actually played the Ele Shaman. I've currently been testing Mage (all specs), Warlock (all specs) and Shaman (Enhance and Ele). Out of those classes I've enjoyed Ele shaman and Demo/Destro Warlock the most. Those three specs allow you to constantly build your resource and offer you choices when spending it. Demo Lock in particular has some good talent choices which change up the gameplay and I would say the Ele shaman does also. I think Ele shaman is incredibly fun and honestly quite fast paced with the amount of instant Lava Bursts you get, the instant Earth Quakes which you can use your resource on and your shocks.

As it is now, I just don't see anything that makes me want to stick with a Hunter over other ranged classes. On live, the mobility, good target switching, execute and overall fast game play is a big draw. I've been a fan of BM since SoO and I found that to be fast paced and enjoyable type of gameplay which revolved around your pet. The current specs don't retain these characteristics at all in my opinion. I also don't enjoy that our builder is instant, I thought it felt much better when the builder was a cast time and the spender was instant but I suppose that's personal preference. For MM, I'd love to see Steady Shot brought back but we couldn't cast it while moving, marked shot to stay but aimed shots would be instant after the target is marked. Windburst being able to be cast on the move again. That would make the flow of the class feel much better in my opinion. Or even just make lock n load baseline.

Thanks this post is very helpful. My mage was another option I was hoping frost/arcane would be somewhat fastpaced which is the most important thing for me, fluid and fast. This being said it's looking like an ele shaman/lock I guess. Shadow also looks very fast paced/fun but i haven't heard much about it.

[Deleted]

So on Live you have a fast-paced, mobile, priority-based spec with no active sustained AoE but good target swapping ability. On Alpha you have a rotational-based spec with low mobility and penalties for target swapping with largely automatic AoE and potential rotational downtimes. It is a BIG step backwards.

- - - Updated - - -

the rotation is not a step backwards, it's just something you don't like...the downtime however is, because no rotation should have downtimes when played perfectly

Because it's priority based, meaning you have to better understand what each ability does and how/when to use them. Alpha MM is largely a static rotation. The only real complexity is ensuring that you fit 3 aimed shots and a marked shot in the Deadeye window, which again arguably boils down to following rotation.

No, there is no difference (in terms of complexity) between casting the highest dps skill whenever possible to casting a rotation that will yield the highest dps, I don't even know why you'd believe that. It's seriously nothing more than a one time investment. If I know spell A is the best, I'll use spell A the most, if I know rotation A is better than B, I'll use A over B whenever possible.

If you prefer a playstyle much more similar to that of a caster, why don't you play a caster instead? Why do you want hunters to turn into casters? As someone who prefers a more versatile, mobile ranged DPS, my options are FAR more limited than yours.

For the same reason why a Paladin-tank won't switch to a prot-warrior, or a warlock to a mage and vice versa. You might as well drop that bullshit "play a different class if you like the changes"-act.

You begin with "it's pretty much the same" and then end with talking about how it's not the same at all. I can finish casting an aimed shot while moving (if I didn't have the T18 4-set, that is) while moving on Live, my casting is cancelled on Alpha.

On Live I can move for 3 seconds before losing DPS, and what I lose is a ~+10% damage done and +10% crit damage buff. On Alpha it's different, because there are periods in the rotation where you are using instant casts and periods where you are casting Aimed Shot. Those Aimed Shot periods are critical to your damage output so moving at all during them is a big DPS loss. At 50% haste you will be casting about 19 Aimed Shots per minute and the cast time is 1.33 seconds, so your total time spent casting Aimed Shot each minute is 25 seconds. Yeah yeah, rough napkin math, but you can see that we are immobile for about half our rotation. Consider that we also have Windburst casts as well. This is a far more severe mobility restriction. Losing sniper training makes you do less damage but you can still use all of your abilities while moving; you cannot use the ability that makes up a huge amount of your DPS while moving on Alpha. That is a clear nerf.

of course its a nerf, but it's only a nerf to how easy it is to play and keep up your rotation and abilities.....which I consider fair.

[Sencha]

You guys sound so fuckin' dumb with this "3 BUTTON OMG". Feels like all you guys are Paragon level raiders or even better. Myabe you feel it's simple spec because you stans in front of dummy and fuckin' stare at your action button panel all the time? Have you attended on mythic raid tests? There is so much shit going on, you will say thank you to Blizzard once you will be progressing. Maibe you think it's good to play piano "rotation", but it probably means that you will fuck up more often during progression and you will fuck up in encounters mechanic wise, because you were too engaged in your "super fun-ten buttons-eleven buffs-twelve prosc-100 debuffs rotation".

Mark my words, like always, there will be those who use class potencial on 100% (there is still focus managment, CD managment, knowing when to switch and how to switch, maximising debuffs uptime) and be on top of WoL and those who "omg 3 button I will play with my left foot" and will be in the middle of the pack.

So the solution is a dumbed-down rotation so that casual Joe can move out of the fire without losing too much dps?

[Deleted]

So the solution is a dumbed-down rotation so that casual Joe can move out of the fire without losing too much dps?

thats how it is in WoD, not Legion..

[kaminaris]

of course its a nerf, but it's only a nerf to how easy it is to play and keep up your rotation and abilities.....which I consider fair.

thats how it is in WoD, not Legion..

Dude I don't know how can you lie to yourself that much.

In legion it does not depend on you whatever you will do good dps or not, it is purely RNJesus whim. In WoD there was at least something to watch (sniper training) and make sure to cast chimaera on CD but now? Well, i will be playing on dancing mat and still will have a chance to top the dps.

No, there is no difference

There is a difference, if you can't see it go play alpha again. Kill shot was fun because you could fish out low hp adds, chimaera was fun because you wanted to cast it on something that has another target in some proximity. Now? Well, nothing.