[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Deleted]

I actually miss Turalyon's Might. Remember that guys?

I always loved the idea of having a teleport. Unfortunely it was never implemented. It was just a half assed charge.

[Bolt66]

I always loved the idea of having a teleport. Unfortunely it was never implemented. It was just a half assed charge.

I'd take that charge with a ~20s cd right now over derpony or seal of light.

DKs who are supposed to have bad mobility like us have wraith walk, death's advance (15% speed), and deathgrip baseline. Unholy can talent Wraith Walk to a 45s 100% movement speed. Frost can talent it into a damage reduction and slow.

Our mobility is just really bad. I watch some of Thete's videos where people have tools to deal with GTFO mechanics, while he has to just slow run out of it. It's disheartening and not at all fun. Mobility skills are some of the most fun and interesting in this game, which Ret is continuously denied for no god reason or compensation.

[Celebhil]

They'll definitely have to give up on the policy of giving us nothing in terms of mobility, have gap closing skills and/or escape skills on the equivalent power lvl of dks deathgrip and wraithwalk. We already have a buffed divine shield (which many of us have taken for merit, but i suspect will be a lot more handy in legion), so things like having extra speed on divine shield, blessing of prot or freedom would be a good start

[Snegovik]

That's just standard PR stuff to be honest. Then again... well while I'm sure I'm in the minority, I've actually rather liked garrisons. It's nice to be able to have a little place that's my own, the missions and such are fine (with Master Plan :P ), and so on. I'm actually in the position of sitting here wondering if order halls will be as good :P .

I am with you on this one, i love garrison, they are pretty fun, useful (making potions/pvp toys) and make amazing amounts of gold, i have maxed out garrisons/ship yards on 2 chars with all followers/ships having gold traits and i made over a million in gold spending 10-15 min a day on missions =) and since all i do is pvp outside of garrison, this is amazing for me to make gold.

[Morally Grey Storm]

They'll definitely have to give up on the policy of giving us nothing in terms of mobility, have gap closing skills and/or escape skills on the equivalent power lvl of dks deathgrip and wraithwalk. We already have a buffed divine shield (which many of us have taken for merit, but i suspect will be a lot more handy in legion), so things like having extra speed on divine shield, blessing of prot or freedom would be a good start

No.

HoF is HoF, it is a slow/root removal, nothing else.
Making it double as a sorta kinda feebly erzatz runspeed-slowlygapcloser would be retarded and would not allow for optimal usage of said ability.
And do I have to mention it already doubles as team utility?

All of it is true regardind DS/HoProtection.

Its fine having a tool have dual purpose, but not triple and at the cost of spec personal viability.


In WoTLK, f.e., HOF doubled(or did it triple?) as slow/root removal, stun removal and team utility aswell.
But, and it is oretty hefty but, we had means for personal sustainance, namely - Magic Cleanse.
In Legion we will have square root of feth all .

So no. No more additional effects on already overburdened(and failing at its burdens) spell.

[Snegovik]

They'll definitely have to give up on the policy of giving us nothing in terms of mobility, have gap closing skills and/or escape skills on the equivalent power lvl of dks deathgrip and wraithwalk. We already have a buffed divine shield (which many of us have taken for merit, but i suspect will be a lot more handy in legion), so things like having extra speed on divine shield, blessing of prot or freedom would be a good start

Blizzard will have to either improve our mobility or change our judgement's debuff duration, because they just trying to put things together that simply do not work together: judgement debuff implies you will have a short window (of 6 seconds?) to do dmg on a target; HOWEVER (and this i a big however), how in hell can we stick on target without proper mobility? Now that i think about it, it really scares me that it will be even easier to counter Ret's dmg in Legion than it is now. Imagine facing RMD, all enemy team has to do is for rogue to stun you, or mage simply blink away while you are slowed by poisons or immobilized by nova or roots (and if you tell me about freedom, any mage will say Hi to you with a smirk after SS it). So basically Blizzard is forcing on us Arm's game style, but arms is one of the best mobile melees in rated pvp, hence they have a capability to perma slow target + undispellable stun + amazing gap closers (heroic leap, charges, roots or stuns from those charges), oppose to what Ret has in Legion: a 45 sec cd holy pony or 20 speed buff, and that is it folks! That is just a bad design from rated PvP pov, where ppl peel/snare/cc you

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@Storm the Sorrow yeh we definitely need our snare/root cleanse back in Legion, i have no idea wtf Blizzard is thinking removing it from Rets, i can alr see myself sitting in a frost nova while fire mage is casting that Armageddon spell on the ground under my feet, and i have no way to escape it.

[Bolt66]

I simply don't understand this continuous (bordering on intentional) ostracization of Ret. We definitely need more tools and better mechanics. Instead of improving what was already there or giving us new and interesting mechanics like many other specs, we're stuck begging for the ones we already had (like Divine Purpose) just to be functional. To add to that, now we're picking up the dysfunctional mechanics of other specs. Who is designing our spec????

Prot is looking overwhelmingly bad from a gameplay point of view too...so much for going tank if they don't fix Ret.

[Morally Grey Storm]

I simply don't understand this continuous (bordering on intentional) ostracization of Ret.

There are 3 main reasons:
1. Because it's Blizzard
2. Because it's Retribution Paladins
3. Because feth you that's why

[Snegovik]

I honestly think the only way they will "fix" Ret, mechanics/play style wise (not talking about dmg) is for 90% of all Rets just quit or re-roll to make spec so rare that Blizzard will not be able to ignore this any longer.

Personally if Blizzard won't fix Ret or adjust it after first 2 month into xpac, i will probably just play DH, since those guys seem to get all the cool toys and more in legion.

[Bolt66]

There are 3 main reasons:
1. Because it's Blizzard
2. Because it's Retribution Paladins
3. Because feth you that's why

I honestly think the only way they will "fix" Ret, mechanics/play style wise (not talking about dmg) is for 90% of all Rets just quit or re-roll to make spec so rare that Blizzard will not be able to ignore this any longer.

Personally if Blizzard won't fix Ret or adjust it after first 2 month into xpac, i will probably just play DH, since those guys seem to get all the cool toys and more in legion.

You're both probably right...
As long as we're a widely popular spec that steadily attracts new players with its aesthetics and lore, they're probably fine giving us second hand mechanics and crap gameplay. Unfortunately we're the embodiment of style over substance. I've been prepping my fury warrior and unholy DK (which is an absolute delight both thematically and in terms of rewarding mechanics) for a main swap but if it comes to that it'll be the first time since vanilla that I haven't mained a Paladin

[Taeldorian]

I simply don't understand this continuous (bordering on intentional) ostracization of Ret. We definitely need more tools and better mechanics. Instead of improving what was already there or giving us new and interesting mechanics like many other specs, we're stuck begging for the ones we already had (like Divine Purpose) just to be functional. To add to that, now we're picking up the dysfunctional mechanics of other specs. Who is designing our spec????

Prot is looking overwhelmingly bad from a gameplay point of view too...so much for going tank if they don't fix Ret.

What? Prot is the second best tank at the moment. It's bland at the moment, but Towelliee and Treckie both stated that with the next build it should help make it a bit more fun.

If they decide to stupidly ignore ret feedback, I'll be heading over to prot. Prot is definitely going to be wanted, even possibly required along with Bear tanks.

For PvP, Ret definitely needs more on the mobility side of things, as well as something to allow us to catch people ie gap closer or perma slow baseline. I have no idea what they plan on doing, but giving us baseline mobility would be amazing. That's pretty much all we need to make us competitive. If we get a gap closer/perma slow, we have enough on the other spectrum of things to remain relevant.

For PvE, the judgement window thing isn't bad at all, and honestly after playing it more it's extremely fun. AoEing is really satisfying as well, but you have to pretend you're doing good damage for it to be satisfying. If we get tuned properly and our damage is on par with everyone else's, I will tell you right now ret will be one of the more looked at dps specs for pve. Right now it's low as fuck, on par with the tanks. Of course, as Finalboss says, tuning won't happen until around next month when all class design stuff is over.

[Teleros]

Blizzard will have to either improve our mobility or change our judgement's debuff duration, because they just trying to put things together that simply do not work together: judgement debuff implies you will have a short window (of 6 seconds?) to do dmg on a target; HOWEVER (and this i a big however), how in hell can we stick on target without proper mobility?

Looking at these arena videos from Bajheera etc... it's not that bad actually - he's generally able to stick to things and damage them. That said...

1. Again though I do wonder about the quality of the opposition (are these high rated PvPers he's facing, or scrubs like me?). A lot of the opposition is also melee-heavy, because Demon Hunters, which helps staying in melee. Can't recall seeing many cases of BoF being stolen / dispelled, but that might just be me.
2. I suspect there will be only a few viable comps for Ret in 3v3s etc. More for, say, Arms though.
3. Why bring a Ret when other specs can bring most of what Ret brings, plus a lot more? I mean sure, Arms can't bring hard-casted Flashes of Light, but... yeah.
4. I'll be quite surprised, given the above, if Ret has much viability in RBGs as well. I suspect it'll tank quickly enough.

Now that i think about it, it really scares me that it will be even easier to counter Ret's dmg in Legion than it is now. Imagine facing RMD, all enemy team has to do is for rogue to stun you, or mage simply blink away while you are slowed by poisons or immobilized by nova or roots (and if you tell me about freedom, any mage will say Hi to you with a smirk after SS it).

Well... ideally you'll have your team mates cover for you. That said...

1. See #3 above.
2. I would not be surprised if Ret is the primary target in such situations. Force bubble and SoV (and BoP if you mostly do physical DPS I guess), and that's it.

yeh we definitely need our snare/root cleanse back in Legion, i have no idea wtf Blizzard is thinking removing it from Rets, i can alr see myself sitting in a frost nova while fire mage is casting that Armageddon spell on the ground under my feet, and i have no way to escape it.

Given how PvP talents work, I think bringing back magic cleansing for Ret in PvP should be interesting - IIRC the main reason for removing it was because of PvE stuff and to homogenise all the healers or something. For added fun, remove its CD when you use it on yourself but not others.

= + =

I simply don't understand this continuous (bordering on intentional) ostracization of Ret. We definitely need more tools and better mechanics.

I think half the problem is simply that they start with a unique vision, THEN start homogenising.

The devs need to start homogenised, then make the specs unique. For example:

Melee Spec: ~20% DR cooldown (1-2min CD), instant gap closer (20-30sec CD), interrupt (4sec effect / 15sec CD), on demand burst CD (15-30secs, 2-3min CD).
Ranged Spec: ~20% DR cooldown (1-2min CD), instant escape tool (20-30sec CD), on demand burst CD (15-30secs, 2-3min CD).
...

Etc.

Then you differentiate them:

Arms: 2x Charges + Heroic Leap + Hamstring; Recklessness; Defensive Stance; Spell Reflect...
Ret: Intercept + Hand of Hindrance; Avenging Wrath; Divine Shield + Divine Protection; Flash of Light + BoF + BoP...
Frost Mage: Blink + Frost Nova + 1e32 snares; Ice Barrier + Iceblock; Heroism + Spellsteal...
Random Warlock: Demonic Circle + Demonic Gateway; leech spells; tanky spells...

That way you ensure every spec has the minimum tools it needs to do its job in PvE and PvP.

Instead of improving what was already there or giving us new and interesting mechanics like many other specs, we're stuck begging for the ones we already had (like Divine Purpose) just to be functional.

I think Ret had the most interesting design and mechanics back in WotLK, really. The Art of War stuff, Hand of Freedom anti-stun, the 3 Judgement spells & debuffs.

[Stormdash]

I always loved the idea of having a teleport. Unfortunely it was never implemented. It was just a half assed charge.

It absolutely needed to end up being a port of Falling Sword, keeping in the theme of "Paladins have really been Crusaders this whole time".

[Morally Grey Storm]

Looking at these arena videos from Bajheera etc... it's not that bad actually - he's generally able to stick to things and damage them.

First off, level of Bahjeera's opponents is often very , very lacking.
Secondly,currently there is almost nothing going on regarding pvp but viscious blowtrading with little to no tactics or skillplays.
Just simple slugging it out. Which is in no way not like a high-rate-viable spec should play.

I think Ret had the most interesting design and mechanics back in WotLK, really. The Art of War stuff, Hand of Freedom anti-stun, the 3 Judgement spells & debuffs.

Currently Ret has very good flow actually.
PvPing with Empowered Seals is very, very satysfing and kind of, well, skillful and engaging.
You have certain offensive tools and quite a few defensive and supportive tools.
What Ret currently lacks is a debuff of sorts and thats about it. Otherwise current Ret is very enjoyful.

[Bolt66]

What? Prot is the second best tank at the moment. It's bland at the moment, but Towelliee and Treckie both stated that with the next build it should help make it a bit more fun.

If they decide to stupidly ignore ret feedback, I'll be heading over to prot. Prot is definitely going to be wanted, even possibly required along with Bear tanks.

Yes it's functional but it has nothing meaningful to manage and is very lacking in any sort of fun complexity. If you watch Preach's latest video on tanks I believe he refers to playing a prot paladin as a crime against his keyboard.

I think half the problem is simply that they start with a unique vision, THEN start homogenising.

The devs need to start homogenised, then make the specs unique. For example:

Melee Spec: ~20% DR cooldown (1-2min CD), instant gap closer (20-30sec CD), interrupt (4sec effect / 15sec CD), on demand burst CD (15-30secs, 2-3min CD).
Ranged Spec: ~20% DR cooldown (1-2min CD), instant escape tool (20-30sec CD), on demand burst CD (15-30secs, 2-3min CD).
...

Etc.

Then you differentiate them:

Arms: 2x Charges + Heroic Leap + Hamstring; Recklessness; Defensive Stance; Spell Reflect...
Ret: Intercept + Hand of Hindrance; Avenging Wrath; Divine Shield + Divine Protection; Flash of Light + BoF + BoP...
Frost Mage: Blink + Frost Nova + 1e32 snares; Ice Barrier + Iceblock; Heroism + Spellsteal...
Random Warlock: Demonic Circle + Demonic Gateway; leech spells; tanky spells...

That way you ensure every spec has the minimum tools it needs to do its job in PvE and PvP.


I think Ret had the most interesting design and mechanics back in WotLK, really. The Art of War stuff, Hand of Freedom anti-stun, the 3 Judgement spells & debuffs.

I agree with you there because all melee need certain tools. Once that's covered then that's where they should start differentiating the specs based on their class fantasy. I was a big fan of the old Art of War! You actually had to make a choice on whether you needed healing or damage, which was fun in pvp at least. I do remember reading a post in the Alpha forums (from Lobster I think) that suggested connecting our mobility with mana. It's a resource that is largely ignored and it would give us a choice between healing and movement. I think it would be interesting depending on what movement skill they cook up with it (anything but a % movement speed bonus lol soooo boring).

[Teleros]

First off, level of Bahjeera's opponents is often very , very lacking.
Secondly,currently there is almost nothing going on regarding pvp but viscious blowtrading with little to no tactics or skillplays.
Just simple slugging it out. Which is in no way not like a high-rate-viable spec should play.

Hence my concerns. We'll see I guess...

Currently Ret has very good flow actually.

Yeah, the gameplay flow is good ATM, and it doesn't look bad in Legion (Greater Colossus Judgement Smash windows excepted).

PvPing with Empowered Seals is very, very satysfing and kind of, well, skillful and engaging.
You have certain offensive tools and quite a few defensive and supportive tools.
What Ret currently lacks is a debuff of sorts and thats about it. Otherwise current Ret is very enjoyful.

All true, I was thinking mostly of interesting mechanics though. I think Empowered Seals is interesting, but it's also rather clunky and not friendly on the GCDs.

As far as the toolkit goes, I think I'd rather have Ret work through defensive effects for the most part. Obviously I want stuff like a proper gap closer, but (idea pulled out of the nether regions, be warned :P ), a CD that made allies near you immune to CC for a few seconds would be a defensive / supportive way of applying pressure to the enemy. Hard to ruin a burst attempt on a flag carrier when your team can't be CC'ed for the opening seconds for example.

That at any rate seems more paladin-y to me than MS debuffs, or whatever. Though I guess a silence would work if you go with the law & order route.

[Taeldorian]

Yes it's functional but it has nothing meaningful to manage and is very lacking in any sort of fun complexity. If you watch Preach's latest video on tanks I believe he refers to playing a prot paladin as a crime against his keyboard.

Look at the next build, which he happened to miss. Adds back seraphim (the beautiful thing prots had to manage previously, which is also something Preach supported when it came out) as well as a few other things that make prot a lot more interesting. They stated this in the prot paladin class forums, check it out if you want to see for yourself.

[Bolt66]

Look at the next build, which he happened to miss. Adds back seraphim (the beautiful thing prots had to manage previously, which is also something Preach supported when it came out) as well as a few other things that make prot a lot more interesting. They stated this in the prot paladin class forums, check it out if you want to see for yourself.

I did miss that it seems. I wasn't ever a big proponent of the seraphim play style but I'll take a look, thanks.
Edit: I do like the interaction between SotR and Consecration though.

[Snegovik]

First off, level of Bahjeera's opponents is often very , very lacking.
Secondly,currently there is almost nothing going on regarding pvp but viscious blowtrading with little to no tactics or skillplays.
Just simple slugging it out. Which is in no way not like a high-rate-viable spec should play.

Pretty much what Storm said, @Teleros. Since every video i watch ppl just do PVE rotation who ever can pump out more dmg and kill some1 the fastest, it is fun and you can actually test you class dmg and relaxing, so i don;t blame ppl on alpha play like that, especially since dmg is very high atm across the board and healers can't even keep up, so who needs CC? However, once dmg is tuned in, peels, cc and control once again will dictate who wins the game and comps like RMD/God/frozen chicken/ WLS etc will do well and all of those comps have 2 thinks in common cc and peels. Yes teammates suppose to help Ret, but comps like RMD/GOD can cc both teammates for good 20-30 seconds especially in legion when Rogue's blind is on 20 sec cd? Which will make RMD even more OP.

Regards of magic dispel, hell it would be nice to have it back, but i just want our snare cleanse back (what we have currently on live), since that tool is a life savior for us, since we lack good defensive abilities.

[Taeldorian]

First off, level of Bahjeera's opponents is often very , very lacking.
Secondly,currently there is almost nothing going on regarding pvp but viscious blowtrading with little to no tactics or skillplays.
Just simple slugging it out. Which is in no way not like a high-rate-viable spec should play.




Currently Ret has very good flow actually.
PvPing with Empowered Seals is very, very satysfing and kind of, well, skillful and engaging.
You have certain offensive tools and quite a few defensive and supportive tools.
What Ret currently lacks is a debuff of sorts and thats about it. Otherwise current Ret is very enjoyful.

Agreed x2. Hopefully they add a baseline perma slow that Ret can utilize, or some sort of gap closer so we can actually stick to our targets. I 100% agree with you that ret is extremely pleasing gameplay wise right now. After raid testing today (yeah, i was let in even though rets are extremely under tuned) it felt so satisfying, the only thing I had to do was pretend my damage was above the tanks, but that's a tuning issue which will be addressed later.

Both in PvE and PvP ret feels extremely fun to play, all we need in PvP is a perma slow/baseline gap closer and bam. In PvE all we need is to be tuned correctly so our damage is on par with the other dps and bam. We're so close. I did more testing than usual today because I was really in the mood for some dungeons, and this was the first raid test I was available for, it's definitely a fun spec, there's no denying that or doubting that, unless you personally dislike it. As stated before, we just need a perma slow/something that helps us stick to our target in pvp, and a numbers pass/tuning pass in pve.