[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Snegovik]

First off, level of Bahjeera's opponents is often very , very lacking.
Secondly,currently there is almost nothing going on regarding pvp but viscious blowtrading with little to no tactics or skillplays.
Just simple slugging it out. Which is in no way not like a high-rate-viable spec should play.




Currently Ret has very good flow actually.
PvPing with Empowered Seals is very, very satysfing and kind of, well, skillful and engaging.
You have certain offensive tools and quite a few defensive and supportive tools.
What Ret currently lacks is a debuff of sorts and thats about it. Otherwise current Ret is very enjoyful.

Emp seals are good IF you can get used to playing with them and they are only good vs caster base enemy, vs plate, boomies or even shadow id rather go FV. Also since i play from far away land with f 200-300 ms, the extra Range from FV makes all the difference for me between hitting the target during my burst window or reading "out of range" when i am trying to hit some1 with my TV.

[Taeldorian]

I did miss that it seems. I wasn't ever a big proponent of the seraphim play style but I'll take a look, thanks.
Edit: I do like the interaction between SotR and Consecration though.

Sure, no problem! I missed it as well but was watching Treckie/Towelliee earlier and they brought it up.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Yeah, the gameplay flow is good ATM, and it doesn't look bad in Legion (Greater Colossus Judgement Smash windows excepted).

I'll have to politely disagree, but it's a matter of perspective - you like it, I don't

All true, I was thinking mostly of interesting mechanics though. I think Empowered Seals is interesting, but it's also rather clunky and not friendly on the GCDs.

for dragonslaying - yes.
For PvP ? it's smooth as silk.
You have no need to maintain 2/3 buffs.
You switch according to your current needs.
All you need to keep up constantly is Maraad's Truth, because Retribution hits hard.

As far as the toolkit goes, I think I'd rather have Ret work through defensive effects for the most part.

Once Rogal Dorn said: "The best offence is a good defence."

But it's not true.
Ret always was a defensive type of spec, and being always on defensive side wont win you jack.

Think of it like Form 3: Soresu, of Star Wars.
That is what Ret was constantly like: powerful(or not really more often) defences and close to no offensive poweer.
You don't win battles by being a turtle.

You win battles by skullfucking your enemies through their asses for all the past sins they've committed or thought about committing or even dreamed about commiting as much as a felony.
For the Light, of course.

That at any rate seems more paladin-y to me than MS debuffs, or whatever. Though I guess a silence would work if you go with the law & order route.

may I remind you of good old Vindication debuff?
I'd suggest it work now as a reverse-Seraphim: have our melee attacks reduce target's prime stats by 10% and secondary stats by 20%.
Numbers open for tuning, obviously

- - - Updated - - -

Emp seals are good IF you can get used to playing with them and they are only good vs caster base enemy, vs plate, boomies or even shadow id rather go FV. Also since i play from far away land with f 200-300 ms, the extra Range from FV makes all the difference for me between hitting the target during my burst window or reading "out of range" when i am trying to hit some1 with my TV.

EmpSeals allow for more flexibility.
By a lot. And adds a little bit of survivability to boot.

what kills FV for me is its impotency against DKs and Rouges.

[Snegovik]

@Storm the Sorrow
I don;t know i actually find it harder to kill a good dk with Emp Seals, rather than with FV, with FV i can just burst through DK's D-cds and kill him under 40 sec window, while when i ever i pick Emp seals, fight drags on, and eventually i lose (but i suck /w Imp Seals, so i think this is the main reason). Rogues are easy in general, so not an issue for me.

Yeh Emp Seals adds flexibility, but it just annoys the hell out of me when you sit in a cc chain, and you lose your buffs, and u gotta stack them up again, it does not takes a long time, but its just annoying, and since this season i quite rated pvp till legion, i just run casual BGs and for those you gotta have DS procs for aoe down those fools (same goes for RBGs, FV hands down better).

On a personal note, my Ret atm is mastery specked (93% mastery self buffed, full pvp gear) hence FV is better for me, since Emp Seals go better with Versatility

[Taeldorian]

It's already been stated that PvP in Legion is basically all about dealing big damage. It's a lot more simplified in Legion, it's not just ret that suffers from the oversimplification in pvp. You can watch Cdew, Ven, Snutz, or any pvper for that matter and see that the gameplay has changed greatly. It's not really about setting up insanely good things to catch the opponent off guard or make the other team pop all of their defensives, it's literally just a rush to see who can deal more damage/who can kill who first.

With that in mind, Ret can definitely be competitive, we just need that gap closer or perma slow that allows us to stick to our targets so we can use the judgement window to line up some crazy burst. It'd also be kinda nice if DP wasn't bugged right now.

For PvE, ret has a really nice flow if you get used to the judgement window thing. It's actually really fun (subjective), but we need a numbers pass so we can remain on par with the other dps. Taking fires of justice with an unbugged DP could lead to an insane amount of burst. Unfortunately it is bugged, so testing it out currently isn't possible.

[Morally Grey Storm]

@Storm the Sorrow
I don;t know i actually find it harder to kill a good dk with Emp Seals, rather than with FV, with FV i can just burst through DK's D-cds and kill him under 40 sec window, while when i ever i pick Emp seals, fight drags on, and eventually i lose (but i suck /w Imp Seals, so i think this is the main reason). Rogues are easy in general, so not an issue for me.

Yeh Emp Seals adds flexibility, but it just annoys the hell out of me when you sit in a cc chain, and you lose your buffs, and u gotta stack them up again, it does not takes a long time, but its just annoying, and since this season i quite rated pvp till legion, i just run casual BGs and for those you gotta have DS procs for aoe down those fools (same goes for RBGs, FV hands down better).

On a personal note, my Ret atm is mastery specked (93% mastery self buffed, full pvp gear) hence FV is better for me, since Emp Seals go better with Versatility

what I meant regarding Dks and Rouges is that AMS and CoS absorb FV completely.
It irks me. A lot.

And yeah, I'm versa/crit-geared, so maybe there's that.
To each their own, I grew to like EMpS by a lot



edittto: wth, I'm no pandaren monk ;(

[Snegovik]

It's already been stated that PvP in Legion is basically all about dealing big damage. It's a lot more simplified in Legion, it's not just ret that suffers from the oversimplification in pvp. You can watch Cdew, Ven, Snutz, or any pvper for that matter and see that the gameplay has changed greatly. It's not really about setting up insanely good things to catch the opponent off guard or make the other team pop all of their defensives, it's literally just a rush to see who can deal more damage/who can kill who first.

With that in mind, Ret can definitely be competitive, we just need that gap closer or perma slow that allows us to stick to our targets so we can use the judgement window to line up some crazy burst. It'd also be kinda nice if DP wasn't bugged right now.

Personally that kinda scares me to be honest, so it will be like back in last season of Cata, when Vanguard clv faced a mirror: who ever killed healer 1st wins, but i don't think that the tunnel fest play style will last for a long time, i mean Mages/Rogues/Droods still have their cc-tool kit in tact and with reducing escape abilities in other classes, makes RMD even more OP (at least from my personal pov), i mean just look at Rogue's 20 sec cd blind...so it will be like 3 sheeps into blinds into clone into 2 sheeps into blind into clone etc, and if target trinkets, well not a big deal you can DF/bash/KS or even through a sap somewhere in the middle if cc is perfect and target leaves combat. I mean it is too early to say that arena will be simplified, since atm ppl just testing dmg/abilities by tunneling each other rather than setting up complex cc chains.

- - - Updated - - -

what I meant regarding Dks and Rouges is that AMS and CoS absorb FV completely.
It irks me. A lot.

And yeah, I'm versa/crit-geared, so maybe there's that.
To each their own, I grew to like EMpS by a lot



edittto: wth, I'm no pandaren monk ;(

Ya its more of a personal choice, vs CLOS i just kite or use physical attacks vs DK's AMS i just burst through, pop that cherry and show who is the alpha male here =) lol...

[Teleros]

Once Rogal Dorn said: "The best offence is a good defence."

Yeah, Rogal Dorn was talking out his bottom that time :P .

Ret always was a defensive type of spec, and being always on defensive side wont win you jack.

Of course, but I mean... well, instead of applying offensive pressure via an MS debuff, it'd be nice if Ret could apply offensive pressure via other means. Shutting down options for the enemy team and such (eg CC immunity as above), or maybe a silence etc. I mean, it's not as if you wouldn't also be charging into combat and bringing the Ashbringer down on heads .

may I remind you of good old Vindication debuff?
I'd suggest it work now as a reverse-Seraphim: have our melee attacks reduce target's prime stats by 10% and secondary stats by 20%.
Numbers open for tuning, obviously

Yeah, that'd be nice to see again.

[Snegovik]

may I remind you of good old Vindication debuff?
I'd suggest it work now as a reverse-Seraphim: have our melee attacks reduce target's prime stats by 10% and secondary stats by 20%.
Numbers open for tuning, obviously

WoW i just not realized how much i miss the debuff, it was not OP or anything but it was one of those cool lore things that made Rets stand out among other melee oppose to now where Ret lost so much of our core abilities like Retribution Aura, eye for an eye (the original where it affected all attacks not a water down version in legion that works only vs melee) and vindication debuff"

[Morally Grey Storm]

or for feth's sake:

Hand of Denounce

Places a blessing on a friendly target, making it immune to critical attacks for N seconds.
Retardedly low cooldown. Retribution Paladin spell.

Could also be named Hand of Suck it Holypaladins.


Or even:

Hand of Get Rekt

Places a blessing on a friendly target, removing all effects that cause loss of control and giving immunity to such effects for N seconds.
Moderate Cd. Retribution paladin spell.


yay. defensive-offensive Hands.
Or how about Hands doubling up as offensive spells.

I remember I've seen someone suggest something like that long time ago.
Example:
Hand of Freedom placed on an enemy becomes...


Backhand of Freedom

Places punishment shackles on the wrongdoer, disallowing him to move away from paladin no further than 15 yards.


Eh, the dreams, the possibilities...

[Snegovik]

Yep or a spell 1 min cd, which if placed on enemy target takes X amount of damage based on the distance between you and the target, the further the target the more dmg it takes over 10 sec, up to maximum of 30% of total health, enemy has to be under 10 yards to take no dmg.

[Taeldorian]

Personally that kinda scares me to be honest, so it will be like back in last season of Cata, when Vanguard clv faced a mirror: who ever killed healer 1st wins, but i don't think that the tunnel fest play style will last for a long time, i mean Mages/Rogues/Droods still have their cc-tool kit in tact and with reducing escape abilities in other classes, makes RMD even more OP (at least from my personal pov), i mean just look at Rogue's 20 sec cd blind...so it will be like 3 sheeps into blinds into clone into 2 sheeps into blind into clone etc, and if target trinkets, well not a big deal you can DF/bash/KS or even through a sap somewhere in the middle if cc is perfect and target leaves combat. I mean it is too early to say that arena will be simplified, since atm ppl just testing dmg/abilities by tunneling each other rather than setting up complex cc chains.

Yeah, it's definitely too early, but at the current point in time nobody really has much of a kit to set up complex cc chains. The only thing people seem to have is burst/stun that makes you use your defensives, and it continues on that way. Sure things aren't balanced at the moment which is why you'll see me running around saying "wait for tuning to judge ret based on numbers" because for some reason people are doing that. Not saying this isn't fun, it's alright, but it's less complex than before. No idea if this is going to change or not, since not everyone has their classes at level 50 in pvp.

To reiterate, what I meant was that no class really has the kit to set up a complex chain like in the past. Right now it's all about CC and burst, if your team survives they do the same, etc. I haven't really seen anything complex about pvp in Legion after watching Cdew, Ven, Snutz which are some of the top pvpers in WoW.

Either way, after testing tonight and more practice with ret, in pve we feel really fluid. Definitely could use a bit more mobility or something, but other than that and tuning it really does feel fluid, and I imagine when DP is fixed we'll have more fun with the synergies between it and fires of justice. I don't imagine our damage is supposed to be this low, so when tuning rolls around I'm guessing it'll be fixed, but I'm not really sure because the devs never mentioned it. If not, ret pve is going to struggle, if our damage does get raised though, ret is going to be a solid choice in pve.

Pvp is a different story. In my opinion, the only way to make ret viable as of now would be to give the spec either more mobility or a perma slow/gap closer so we can stick on our targets during the judgement window. Whether you're pessimistic about blizzard doing this or not, provide feedback so we can actually get it through to them. If you decide not to because you have no "hope" you're only hurting the class itself. If you're not in alpha, hit up Twitter.

TLDR: Ret pve is fluid and decently fun, when dp is unbugged it'll be fun because it synergizes with other talents. Try to get a feel for the judgement window gameplay, it's honestly fun, but that is subjective. We just need our damage buffed to be on par with other dps, otherwise it's a really fun spec. Ret pvp is a different story and to make it viable we need a gap closer/perma slow or something to allow us to stick to our targets so we can make use of that judgement window. That's what I got from testing.

[Ulthane]

or for feth's sake:

Hand of Denounce

Places a blessing on a friendly target, making it immune to critical attacks for N seconds.
Retardedly low cooldown. Retribution Paladin spell.

Could also be named Hand of Suck it Holypaladins.


Or even:

Hand of Get Rekt

Places a blessing on a friendly target, removing all effects that cause loss of control and giving immunity to such effects for N seconds.
Moderate Cd. Retribution paladin spell.


yay. defensive-offensive Hands.
Or how about Hands doubling up as offensive spells.

I remember I've seen someone suggest something like that long time ago.
Example:
Hand of Freedom placed on an enemy becomes...


Backhand of Freedom

Places punishment shackles on the wrongdoer, disallowing him to move away from paladin no further than 15 yards.


Eh, the dreams, the possibilities...

-hands cookie-

[ruiizu]

-hands cookie-

Still not sure why we don't have a unique Hand spell for utility. Could be Hand of Justice, Hand of Vengeance, Hand of Righteousness, Hand of Light (hey...)...

We should definitely have an offensive debuff other than Hand of Hindrance though. I always thought Hand of Vengeance would have been a fun PvP tool, fully acknowledging Blizzard is telling us to screw off on mobility:

Hand of Vengeance
The next direct damage ranged attack the target uses causes you fly through the air and strike the target with holy energy for x% weapon damage. 1 charge, 30 second CD.

It's basically a "If you run away and try to attack me, here I come baby."

Or even...

Hand of Justice
The target's next spell will effect the user rather than the target. Lasts 10 seconds.

I dunno, I'm sometimes just a little turned off by the lack of creativity Blizzard exhibits. They don't do anything cool with buffs like having vengeful effects (you can dispel Freedom, BUT...etc). They don't go with any cool debuffs (we have a ranged slow...yay? Sure it works, but it isn't all that creative). We're still running with Repentance too, which basically is still a crappy casted CC that, as a melee without mobility, we really really can't use. However, I will pose this question:

To anyone in Alpha: is there time to cast Repentance when the target is running away to use as a distance closing option, or are there too many interrupts and that's just absolutely unlikely and foolish? Personally, I somewhat miss the old Repentance, which could be used on a Mage that just blinked to make up the distance (he couldn't move for a few seconds, so you could just run up and start ripping him one; sometimes they'd blow trinket or Block too, which was a nice bonus).

[Morally Grey Storm]

-hands cookie-

You and your cookie handling!
Have to take measures!

[Teleros]

Yeah, it's definitely too early, but at the current point in time nobody really has much of a kit to set up complex cc chains. The only thing people seem to have is burst/stun that makes you use your defensives, and it continues on that way.

Scary theory time: Blizz are making WoW PvP more MOBA-like (eg Heroes of the Storm). Very little variance in stats on the whole (esp in rated PvP), fewer buttons, much less CC etc...

Heroes of the World of Warcraft Legion Storm :P ?

Come on, who doesn't want to go into Arathi Basin in Patch 7.1 and take the enemy siege camp before handing in some doubloons :P ?

</tinfoilhat>

[Deleted]

Hand of Vengeance
The next direct damage ranged attack the target uses causes you fly through the air and strike the target with holy energy for x% weapon damage. 1 charge, 30 second CD.

It's basically a "If you run away and try to attack me, here I come baby."

This would be amazing, flying up with angelic wings striking down, sword in the ground. Super cool animations and stuff ;D

- - - Updated - - -

Scary theory time: Blizz are making WoW PvP more MOBA-like (eg Heroes of the Storm). Very little variance in stats on the whole (esp in rated PvP), fewer buttons, much less CC etc...

Heroes of the World of Warcraft Legion Storm :P ?

Come on, who doesn't want to go into Arathi Basin in Patch 7.1 and take the enemy siege camp before handing in some doubloons :P ?

</tinfoilhat>

OH crap that doesn't sound fun at all.

EDIT:

On the other hand we could have some super cool ults ripping up entire battlegrounds and stuff.

[Reghame]

Hand of Hindrance is ret only BTW.......

[Vintersol]

Hand of Hindrance is ret only BTW.......

30 seconds cooldown....

[Teleros]

On the other hand we could have some super cool ults ripping up entire battlegrounds and stuff.

Who do you think you are? An Arms warrior?!

:P

Hand of Hindrance is ret only BTW.......

I'm guessing ruiizu automatically discounted that, because as snares go it's a joke.

Sure it's a strong snare, but between the cooldown (even with PvP talents) and it being a magic debuff, reliable it is not.