Why Middle East armies (except one) perform so poorly, without ethnic or religious...

[Mihalik]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sykes%...icot_Agreement

Arab soldiers and commanders aren't incompetent historically speaking. But Arabs never fully transitioned into forming strong states and are largely tribal to this day. This lack of structure provided by a strong state, combined with the legacy of colonialism essentially ensures that Arab armies under perform and will continue doing so for the foreseeable future.

Words like Iraq, Libya, Saudi Arabia, or Yemen are largely irrelevant to the people living there.

The Iranians are an exception by having a strong unifying Persian identity combined with a lack of internal sectarian divisions (they are all Shia). This also seems to be a characteristic of the Kurds, although both groups share Arab military traditions and tactics.

[sarahtasher]

A major problem is also that the armies of the region have ludicruous of equipment and men under arms, while not having budgets to follow.

Egypt have 400 000 men under arms. And a budget of 8 billion USD.

The well known military powerhouse known as Canada have 60 000 men under arms and a budget of 14 billion USD....

[Mihalik]

A major problem is also that the armies of the region have ludicruous of equipment and men under arms, while not having budgets to follow.

Egypt have 400 000 men under arms. And a budget of 8 billion USD.

The well known military powerhouse known as Canada have 60 000 men under arms and a budget of 14 billion USD....

You are comparing a conscript army with a professional military. The last time where equally geared professional and conscript armies went up against each other, with the conscript army having a series of advantages like home field, and in some areas better gear.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falklands_War

Guess which army won?

[sarahtasher]

You are comparing a conscript army with a professional military. The last time where equally geared professional and conscript armies went up against each other, with the conscript army having a series of advantages like home field, and in some areas better gear.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falklands_War

Guess which army won?

Egypt lost badly against conscripts armies. (Well, one army). The fact that conscripts are sometimes poorly motivated is not helping (and it's a self replicating problem, because with the pay in the Egyptian army, it's not very attractive for volunteers)

[Deleted]

An overabundance of #AbuHajaar is why they perform so poorly

[sarahtasher]

That comment is incredibly unhelpful (and likely to get the thread ended). It's especially ridiculous as the army they kept losing against is made up of people that were mocked for centuries as being unfit to be soldiers.

[Independent voter]

I don't think people in these countries feel that they are citizens of the country they live in nor have a vested interest in what happens to their country. They are mostly tribal, now if you were to attack their tribe or group they would fight like crazy.

Like when Iraq was liberated, citizens looted government offices and property taking everything not nailed down, the government was not their government, they felt like foreigners in their own country.

[sarahtasher]

I don't think people in these countries feel that they are citizens of the country they live in nor have a vested interest in what happens to their country. They are mostly tribal, now if you were to attack their tribe or group they would fight like crazy.

Like when Iraq was liberated, citizens looted government offices and property taking everything not nailed down, the government was not their government, they felt like foreigners in their own country.

Yes and no. There is significant ethnic divides in Syria and Iraq, not so much in Egypt and Libya. In Irak and Syria, the armed forces were (are) the preserve of the ruling group. Alawites and Sunnis were the recruiting pool for elite units and most of the officer corps (therefore, the Alawite divisions in Syria and the Sunni-only Republican Guard should have fought better for ''their'' regime, while the abyssal morale of Sunni conscripts in Syria and Shia conscripts in Iraq can be explained...)

[Xires]

Uh, Egypt have Western material since the Yom Kippur war.

Yes, but the west doesn't give arab or other county's their best tech. We give Egypt old and obsolete Abram tanks that only have steel armor and no chobom armor(however it is spelt), we also don't give them the computers for it either. We give arab forces our old stuff and it is stripped of the best tech.

[sarahtasher]

Well, the Abrams tanks, they received them when ?

(Answer : their M1 tanks are built locally, or more accurately assembled from kits)

[Gaidax]

As an Israeli I can tell you this, every guy or girl in the country has to serve in the army, unless granted special exempt.

From day one we are being taught of what happened in WWII and we don't have stomach for losing, because if we truly lose a war - we and our families will be eliminated.

We also don't have king's nephews and such as army generals. Neither we have some shithead beloved leader acting as if he is some sort of warfare genius and leading army to ruin.

Besides, I'm pretty confident that the other side does not feel as strongly as we are about losing.

[Deleted]

Kurds getting equipment/air support from US as well as Russia. It is expected for any group of fighters to win with air support against terrorists who have no air support, are poorly trained and probably equipped much worse compared to Kurds.

Actually ISIS is much more heavily equipped than the Kurds. The Kurds are mainly equipped with rifles, and lacking larger amounts of heavier weapons. Whereas ISIS since the capture of Mosul has had stupid amounts of heavy armored vehicles, captured from Iraqi Army bases. The Kurds/SDF is one of the worst/lightest armed major group in Syria, due to Turkey pretty much veto'ing any move to heavily arm the Kurds.
This is also why the Kurds were facing major defeats in Syria, right up until the battle for Kobane, where they fighted for the survival of their presence in Syria. Had western aircrafts not intervened and started giving them air support, it's likely that they would have been kicked out. Since Kobane the Kurds have been performing excellently though. Despite being lightly armed they've been extremely effective at incorporating signalling and communicating with western aircrafts for air support doing their offensives.

But it's really a headache not being able to arm the Kurds due to Turkey, when every other group is being armed. Turkey heavily arming (and giving artillery support from across the border in northern Syria) the Turkmen and other rebels, U.S. arming vetted FSA groups with heavy weaponry like TOWs, and the Sunni Gulf states arming everybody else willing to shoot at Assad. The Kurds really was at a disadvantage untill we began giving them air support.

[Kellhound]

Yes, but the west doesn't give arab or other county's their best tech. We give Egypt old and obsolete Abram tanks that only have steel armor and no chobom armor(however it is spelt), we also don't give them the computers for it either. We give arab forces our old stuff and it is stripped of the best tech.

The M1A1s Egypt has are new built in Egypt from kits, and they were superior to every tank in the region save the Merkava.

[Guy4123]

They've also never had to actually use their M1's so bringing them up is kind of a moot point anyway. During the wars Egypt has actually fought with Israel they were not at some extreme technological disadvantage in comparison and neither were any of the other Muslim countries that participated.

The only time any Middle Eastern countries have been decimated with obviously technologically superior enemies is when the US/NATO has done it.

[sarahtasher]

On the other hand, frankly, does Egypt really need 1100 Abrams ?

Because, all things being equal, Egypt probably don't have the budget to train adequately mechanics and crews for 1100 Abrams. They would be better with the third of those tanks, but with well trained crews and mechanics.

[Kellhound]

On the other hand, frankly, does Egypt really need 1100 Abrams ?

Because, all things being equal, Egypt probably don't have the budget to train adequately mechanics and crews for 1100 Abrams. They would be better with the third of those tanks, but with well trained crews and mechanics.

To be fair, Israel has over 1100 Merkavas in active service.

[bloodmoth13]

what i really want to know is why the US and israel forces perform so pooly against isis

I mean israel does such a good job curb stomping civilians in their homes that its down to a fine art, if they dedicated some of that gusto to eradicating the scourge of the middle east in isis (instead of treating their wounded) then we all could sleep easier at night

[Deleted]

Yeah it's a pretty big joke, just look at the afgan and iraqi army, low morale and corruption and even with outside troops training them they still suck.

I don't even know why I fucking bother.

[sarahtasher]

Yes, but in addition that the whole concept of giving Egypt Abrams is to prevent this kind of incidents, the issue is simply that there is a difference about how many tanks Egypt should have and how many tanks Egypt can field reallistically, with correctly trained crews (because an Abram with a gunner that fired once with the main gun and was not trained in using modern optics/electronics is a very expensive paperweight)

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what i really want to know is why the US and israel forces perform so pooly against isis

I mean israel does such a good job curb stomping civilians in their homes that its down to a fine art, if they dedicated some of that gusto to eradicating the scourge of the middle east in isis (instead of treating their wounded) then we all could sleep easier at night

Simple : Israel don't fight ISIS, because, guess what, they have the brainpower to realize that bombing ISIS would give free propaganda point to ISIS

[bloodmoth13]

Yes, but in addition that the whole concept of giving Egypt Abrams is to prevent this kind of incidents, the issue is simply that there is a difference about how many tanks Egypt should have and how many tanks Egypt can field reallistically, with correctly trained crews (because an Abram with a gunner that fired once with the main gun and was not trained in using modern optics/electronics is a very expensive paperweight)

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Simple : Israel don't fight ISIS, because, guess what, they have the brainpower to realize that bombing ISIS would give free propaganda point to ISIS

i suppose thats why they treat their wounded then!

Good thing isis only attacks non jewish states then.