Preach Ranks Legion Tanks. (Tanking in Legion is Bad?)

[Super Kami Dende]

Healers are dependent on tanks to not get pwned
Healers are dependent on DPS to down bosses before timer
DPS are dependent on tanks to not get pwned
DPS are dependent on healers to heal raid damage
Tanks are dependent on DPS to down bosses before timer

A tank getting destroyed by a boss 10 times his size being dependent on someone healing him perhaps makes the MOST sense out of any of them.

I said "But making them completely dependent on healers is just a bad idea." So to counter your horrible point.

Most DPS have self-heals/Defensive CD's to protect themselves if The Tank or Healer momentarily stuffs up.
Most Healers Have Defensive CD's and can keep themselves alive through Self healing if The Tank stuffs up.
Making it that Tanks who are MEANT to be the best at mitigation/avoiding damage should not be able to maintain themselves for a period without the constant application of heals is just bad design.

[Haywire5714]

I don't care if we need healers or not, I just want to be able to excel as a tank. I want my choices and actions to make a noticable impact on my performance and right now I'm seeing none of that. We're being demoted to semi-active training dummies for the boss to hit and the healer to top off again.

This is really all that needs to be said. Does anyone want to try and argue this point?

[ls-]

This is really all that needs to be said. Does anyone want to try and argue this point?

Bads will argue, they'll say that competition is toxic and should be eradicated

[OrcinusDrake]

Simply put: A good tank needs a way to make an obvious and scaling impact on the raid through performing well, but a bad (or undergeared, novice, whatever word you want to use) tank can still complete the content, they just need more time.

[Bapestar]

So it just looks like we have to go back to the old ways of CC'n mobs, It's what people wanted right? Harder content & more group interaction so in my honest opinion this may be a step in the right direction.

I hope so, that is the true way of an mmo.

[RoxyBlue]

utility

WoW hasnt been a holy trinity game in a long, long time.

if it was you would see raids consist of 20 mages, 3 healers, and 2 tanks

Are you crazy? wow hasnt been a trinity game? Just go try to kill raid bosses without the trinity see how far you get.

[Deleted]

A lot of feeling among the tanks is: "I was/am overpowered and I don't want to let go". There was a reddit thread today with a monk proud he survived 45 secs all alone in some fight, which feels amazing for him, but is really bad for the game. And maybe you are proud that you and your cotank killed Sha of smth in MoP from 5%, but that's also a bad state to a game.

Anyway as a healer you notice a big difference between a great tank, a good tank and a bad tank in the alpha dungeons. Yes, being able to use your mitigation no longer makes you immortal in dungeons and the people around you aren't there just for making your run faster, but are also a part of that run's success. Those hc dungeons can't be outgeared due to forced ilvl on alpha, but by the 2nd week, they will get outgeared on live and they'll no longer be an issue.

In general, about ~40% of the total dmg in a mythic 20 encounter is done to tanks(more on some, a bit less on others) and around 80% of the damage in a mythic+ dungeon goes into the tank. Excluding a healer's need to heal them means excluding healers directly and that's just not fine for healers who already had to suffer through 0/1/2 healed hfc.As for damage, one of the ways some groups approached mythic+ was going 4 tank 1 healer setup, and giving similar damage between tanks and dps will make such things happen.

[Deleted]

Warriors also go into Legion very intact for the most part from where they are on live. If you like your Warrior on live, you'll like him, maybe even moreso in Legion.

Of course only when it comes to the tanking spectrum.

But yes, entirely on-topic I completely agree with what Ultra said in his initial post. Tanks in Legion seem about as lackluster and boring as a good bunch of DPS Speccs do on the current Alpha Build.

[ShiyoKozuki]

The game is in Alpha - Beta will start soon but it's still ALPHA and your concerns are valid feedback - but not for getting more viewers on Youtube but for Blizzards Developers and as an Alpha Tester you have an Alpha Tester feedback forum and there you put your suggestions and complains about this imbalance or boring way to play and hope that they fix that for the next Alpha or Beta patch.

His main concern is too long cooldowns combined with low passive defense. So they need to lower the cooldowns so you have active ways to lower incoming damage (a problem for bad players making it very difficult to heal them) or increase the passive defense (vanilla style) but that will cause a pretty boring gameplay. I don't think you can solve this with good/hardcore tanks and bad/casual tanks both happy.

It's only alpha!
It's only beta!
The game just released!
It's only the first month!
It's only the first content patch!
It's only the 2nd content patch!

Alpha apologists please fucking LEAVE.

[Raiju]

Tanks doing less damage and requiring a healer, I like this change. It feels like their looking backwards for inspiration and getting back into that whole class fantasy thingy.

Because doing 50-60% of a dps was too much damage, apparently

Now playing a tank on beta is painful unless you solely dungeon level. You straight up will not be able to mass pull for weeks due to other people being involved and in general mob density isn't any higher than other expansions so it's only manageable in some areas regardless. To top it off, you can't even pull that much as some tanks due to your healer dependency!

[Grandork]

A lot of feeling among the tanks is: "I was/am overpowered and I don't want to let go". There was a reddit thread today with a monk proud he survived 45 secs all alone in some fight, which feels amazing for him, but is really bad for the game. And maybe you are proud that you and your cotank killed Sha of smth in MoP from 5%, but that's also a bad state to a game.

Anyway as a healer you notice a big difference between a great tank, a good tank and a bad tank in the alpha dungeons. Yes, being able to use your mitigation no longer makes you immortal in dungeons and the people around you aren't there just for making your run faster, but are also a part of that run's success. Those hc dungeons can't be outgeared due to forced ilvl on alpha, but by the 2nd week, they will get outgeared on live and they'll no longer be an issue.

In general, about ~40% of the total dmg in a mythic 20 encounter is done to tanks(more on some, a bit less on others) and around 80% of the damage in a mythic+ dungeon goes into the tank. Excluding a healer's need to heal them means excluding healers directly and that's just not fine for healers who already had to suffer through 0/1/2 healed hfc.As for damage, one of the ways some groups approached mythic+ was going 4 tank 1 healer setup, and giving similar damage between tanks and dps will make such things happen.

This is stupid, Tanks never in the history of WoW ever came near to outdmging DPS in the late game, the closest they came to hitting really hard and almost as hard as DPS was with Vegence, that suffered severe diminishing returns once you were seriously geared.

Let's look at WoD Tanking for Archimonde Mythic, the average DPS on him is around 120k, with the top damage being 170k from a Sub Rogue. A Protection Paladin sporting everything he could possibly equip to increase his damage and by gimmicking the fight as much as he possibly could, where only 64% of his damage was on Archimonde, the rest on AoE Enemies, where 30% of his damage was Savior's Boon, did only 90k DPS, with the average DPS of Tanks revolving around 40k. That means DPS hit 3x more than the Tanks. That has always been the case, even in Pandaria.

Tanks have really bad scalling, always had, they may have similar damage at the start, but after that it's bye bye damage. The whole gimmick of 4 tanks 1 healer for Mythic+ will be outdone fairly soon once the real gear starts pouring in.

[thesmall001]

He says how prot paladins are a crime against his keyboard. Ive never heard someone use this to describe a bad spec. Things sound pretty grim.

You've got to be careful. Streamers and vloggers thrive on hyperbole. The more they exaggerate and the more they incite concern amongst people, the more noise they generate and the more discussion they cause which bolsters their reputation. If you know how things like FOX News work then you know how streamers work: Dissent == Ratings.

[Evolved]

Anyway as a healer you notice a big difference between a great tank, a good tank and a bad tank in the alpha dungeons. Yes, being able to use your mitigation no longer makes you immortal in dungeons and the people around you aren't there just for making your run faster, but are also a part of that run's success. Those hc dungeons can't be outgeared due to forced ilvl on alpha, but by the 2nd week, they will get outgeared on live and they'll no longer be an issue.

In general, about ~40% of the total dmg in a mythic 20 encounter is done to tanks(more on some, a bit less on others) and around 80% of the damage in a mythic+ dungeon goes into the tank. Excluding a healer's need to heal them means excluding healers directly and that's just not fine for healers who already had to suffer through 0/1/2 healed hfc.As for damage, one of the ways some groups approached mythic+ was going 4 tank 1 healer setup, and giving similar damage between tanks and dps will make such things happen.

As a tank you notice how much different each class of healer, and each player behind the keyboard are in relative skill. A healer can compensate for a bad tank. Now we have some tanks can no longer compensate for a bad healer.

Outside of people cheesing fights at the very end of the expansion, nobody was clearing HFC without tanks being healed by someone. Show me a single progression fight in which a tank was not being healed. Hell, show me any fight outside of cheesed speed parses that weren't requiring tanks to receive some form of healing. That's nonsense that the, "just stand there and be a meat filled punching bag", crowd parrots. Those 0/1/2 healed fights were done because of damage/healing output scaling with legendary rings, not because tanks were overpowered. Tanks on farm typically take more damage, because they use DPS trinkets and funnel resources into doing damage. As long as DPS continue to gear up and push fights faster and faster and healers gear gets scaled up (250k HPS from healers says hi), they're always going to "suffer", that's the nature of the beast in a raid with finite values of required healing. Blaming it on tanks and using it as an excuse to take away things that make tanking entertaining, is ignorant.

[Deleted]

Made me LOL .. I have done almost every single dungeon on normal and heroic - even used the group finder / lfg , and never experienced what he described. Violet hold I only whiped on heroic - at it was at the Last boss and only 2 times.
Only watched the first few mins, as what he describes seems so far from the truth, regarding dungeon difficulty. I have even done keystone dungeons (which is alot harder) and still managed to complete them. Perhaps he is just doing it completely wrong..

[Geckoo]

They should be worried about how this tanking model will affect LFD groups and tanking population outside of raids and premade groups.

Make tanking too hard or too reliant on healers and you'll soon find that the most experienced tanks and healers give up on doing LFD dungeons queing solo, while the newer tanks and healers deal with a situation that requires a lot more from them than from the rest of the group. This is bad in the long term for everyone, we've already been there.

In my opinion, this is one of those situations where they go from one extreme to the oposite ignoring the sweet spot between both.

[Swanea]

I was watching this video and all I could think of was......Alt tanks in heirloom gear. 99% don't use a tank cooldown. So as a healer you just spam heal. As DPS, if the tank dies, you use cooldowns and hope to live.

This is what I was watching. A group where player skill is removed (basically). Just stab things till dead. It's fine if a tank needs to rely on a healer more. But with less abilities and cooldowns being a lot less "effective". It just looked so...Meh.

[Deleted]

Meh, i've always enjoyed the "intangibles" in tanking most (Efficient mob placement, pacing movement, etc.). I can deal with being a glorified damage sponge otherwise.

[Aggrophobic]

I think the opposite is true, with these changes it sounds like you will have to really understand your AM and cds and time them well, not just keep them up through a fight like now. In legion it sounds like there will be long cds on defense meaning timing will be crucial, it sounds like you wont be able to keep up AM continuously almost like now. When people say tanking is easy its because right now you really dont get trucked except with boss special abilities that you have cds for. In legion it sounds like you will be getting hit a lot harder and AM wont be up all the time to negate those hits, and cds will be long in coming for special abilities plus tanks with self healing made it really easy on the healers. WoD was very easy tanking, legion does in fact sound like a return of the oh shit days. But as I said im fine with that, other people probably wont be so much.

It's the other way around though. Tanking is made a lot easier in Legion as the tanks abilities don't really matter.
You roll your CDs but for the most part, theres no crucial moments that needs a CD. It's usually fine to just use them where ever just to save the healers mana.

In WoD it mattered where you used your CD's and good tanks made a difference. Thats no longer true in Legion, or at least it matters less.

[Kryos]

It's only alpha!
It's only beta!
The game just released!
It's only the first month!
It's only the first content patch!
It's only the 2nd content patch!

Alpha apologists please fucking LEAVE.

You did not unterstand me. I said: Complains of that sort (balancing issues) during Alpha/Beta do not belong in a Youtube channel to pay the bills of a streamer, they belong in the Alpha/Beta Tester Forum directed to the developers. Because now is the time to change things.

It's not the time to spread anti-Blizz Propaganda (you can do hateful WoD videos there is more than enough things to complain about).

If they ignore constructive input from the Alpha/Beta forum and release the expansion with these problems, then it's time to point fingers and go public. Not now. I also would be ok with negative reports like that one month before launch in the beta. But to bitch about balancing and timing issues that cause dull gameplay just after the expansion is feature complete and in the first stages of beta where you adress balancing issues is just clickbait on Youtube to get many views -> more money for Preach.

Think about developing like baking a cake.

Alpha = prepared all ingrediences (warm up the butter, buy the flour, make sure you have all tools, whip some cream and so on).
Here you can complain if the cook tells you "I want to add raisins this time" and you can say "I never liked raisins, no matter how good you prepare them, I don't want any raisins in them" - that's ok. It's not ok to complain "why isn't the cake ready?" or "the cake still has no glaze! You are a bad cook!"

Beta = put all together and bake it
Here you can complain "not so much chocolate, I still want to be able to taste the vanilla parts" and he can change that. You can also say "please prepare glaze, too. I love chocolate glaze".
It's not time to complain "the cake still has no glaze! You are a bad cook!". You can also ask to hurry up a little bit, but have to expect replys like "I prepared everything already, it's in the oven, it needs time to be done".

Release
Here you can complain "it's not done at all and all soggy and why did you put those damn raisins in? I asked you not to do that!" and now it's time for "the cake still has no glaze! You are a bad cook!"

[Life-Binder]

Well, people did say they wanted vanilla

ditto

Nost people should like this


also

and a high skilled tank would be almost unkillable in their own hands.

how is/was this a good thing ?