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  1. #841
    I'm not liking Ele in Legion much, and in PvP they are just plain dogshit.

  2. #842
    Quote Originally Posted by binkenstein View Post
    Yes, currently people do pick the best talents for the situation, and in Legion people will still take the best choices for the situation. However, I think that being able to talent fully into Single Target or AoE is a bad design choice.
    I can't argue against your personal opinion but i disagree. if you can fully talent for aoe, or single target is fine as long as other options are available and viable as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by binkenstein View Post
    Sure, in a Min/Max environment certain talents will always be taken, but if a) the talents all fill a similar function ie: increasing AoE damage and b) all talents are within a certain tolerance for variation, then it's a better choice for most players than "Oh, it's an AoE fight so I need to take all the AoE talents". Currently there are pretty much three primary build intentions: mobile, single target and AoE. Sure you can argue a little about EB vs Echo on L60, or how many AoE talents you take for an AoE
    sorry for the length btw

    we say min/max but on average to most, ppl aren't trying to be a detriment to their raid/party/team and usually pick the choice they feel will bring them the best result. this doesnt mean the talents chosen will bring the best result as some ppl can't maximize those talents, but if they think it will they will on average chose said talent.

    you say there's only 3 primary builds, but barring tuning and how that goes, talent builds will be still be focused around fight mechanics so 3 is really underselling it.

    lets take HFC as an example.
    the first boss is an aoe fight, but it also has main priority targets. instead of taking the AoE build you have above, you could switch from LMT to icefury for the loaded damage it provides every 30 secs that gives you 2200+ SP damage with your resource instead of the normal 770+ SP.
    this is an option offered with the current system.

    looking at the same fight, if adds dont live long enough you could also switch from Magnitude to elemental fusion for even more LvB.
    Just looking at the first HFC fight has offered a possible 2 more talent build than you've mentioned above.

    We can then look at a council fight.
    you wouldnt take the AoE build or the single target build. the talent option we'd take would be similar to the Single target talent build but we'd probably take elemental fusion over PE: we'd have 2-4 FS rolling each with 15% chance for extra LVB.

    and maybe Aftershock over Storm Elemental since it'll help with resource usage since we're casting more FS.

    AND depending on the damage FS does, totem mastery for extra FS damage might be better than path of flame (this is a big IF, so you dont have to take this part as a must have)
    This option now has offered another 1 or possible 2 talent option.

    From the 3 you mentioned we've now arrived at 6(with a possible 7) talent builds.

    Now lets say we had what youre implying. If we had an aoe row, some talents in that row would need to be usable in single target else the row would literally be useless for certain fights. if only one talent is usable on single target then it becomes the go to, so to correct it all need to be usable on single target and if thats the case, thats no longer a AoE row as your single target damage is balanced around it. If aoe is limited to one row, yes you have the option to pick one of the 3 but then youre shoe horned into picking those talents. with the current setup, you can pick from 0-3 "aoe (really just multi-target) depending on encounter which to me offers more variety and hence in a sense "choice".

    with all that said, variety is the spice of life , no but seriously, all this will be based on tuning but I dont believe their intent is for us to go ALL AOE, ALL SINGLE or ALL MOVEMENT. we'll be mixing up talents more than that.

    again, sorry for the length
    Last edited by garonne; 2016-05-02 at 12:35 AM.

  3. #843
    Deleted
    No, you wont. Since Binkensteins builds are based on math, yours are based on feelings what could be right. That is the difference.

    With the current amount of changes Elemental gets, its safer to say that Blizzard has once again no clear goal on what to do with Elemental. Tuning wont fix bad talent choices, talents which work against each other, missing key mehanics for caster DPS, no immunity/high absorb or even a 2nd def CD.
    Last edited by mmoc59b5827c7e; 2016-05-02 at 11:56 AM.

  4. #844
    Quote Originally Posted by binkenstein View Post
    "Oh, it's an AoE fight so I need to take all the AoE talents".
    It's a general issue with the current talent trees, Elemental is not the sole spec which suffers from this issue.

    On the one hand, having a "full" AoE tier means that people have more flexiblity when it comes to other tiers.

    On the other hand, the other tiers may lose value, due that all it's talent are focused on single target, the current lvl 90 Elemental tier is a good example, for a heavy AoE fight the choice doesn't really matter.

    Putting a talent like Liquid Magma Totem & Magnitude into the same tier seems fine, but putting like Liquid Magma, Magnitude & Lightning Rod all in one tier may be overkill.

    Quote Originally Posted by UcanDoSht View Post
    No, you wont. Since Binkensteins builds are based on math, yours are based on feelings what could be right. That is the difference.
    Encounter design still plays a large role there.

    You won't go all out on AoE talents on any fight that features AoE.

    Quote Originally Posted by UcanDoSht View Post
    talents which work against each other
    I don't think that the Talents work against each other, but rather that they are too similiar.

    Do you really need a talent like Liquid Magma after Magnitude and Lightning Rod? You simply don't need 3 talents for sustained AoE, it's too much.

    The situations in which those talents have a real impact are too rare, if a Warrior takes Bladestorm he will surely be top dps on any fight with short AoE phases, which is by far more common than longlasting AoE.

    Those talents aren't that bad on their own, you just don't need 3 of them.

  5. #845
    Elemental has so many AOE tools and from what I read they arent even that good at burst AOE, and nobody cares about sustained AOE cause the AOE that maters is the bust one, to kill small adds or something of the like

  6. #846
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellfury View Post
    Elemental has so many AOE tools and from what I read they arent even that good at burst AOE, and nobody cares about sustained AOE cause the AOE that maters is the bust one, to kill small adds or something of the like
    stormkeeper, chain lightning, static overload and lightning rod is actually pretty bursty AOE

  7. #847
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by garonne View Post
    stormkeeper, chain lightning, static overload and lightning rod is actually pretty bursty AOE
    Again, you don't understand what burst means in this situation. Our AOE tools are heavily backend loaded and the majority of the damage won't ever come from spells like CL but from dropping EQ. That's how it works now, and a ton of different other AOE spells didn't change this.

  8. #848
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by UcanDoSht View Post
    With the current amount of changes Elemental gets, its safer to say that Blizzard has once again no clear goal on what to do with Elemental.
    Perhaps you should find another spec to play rather than stick with one which you've spent thousands of posts complaining about? Not sure why you don't just switch to one of the other amazing ranged dps with instant burst aoe, full dps while moving, amazing single target dps and a fun rotation with infinite room to master.

  9. #849
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by jadfer View Post
    Perhaps you should find another spec to play rather than stick with one which you've spent thousands of posts complaining about? Not sure why you don't just switch to one of the other amazing ranged dps with instant burst aoe, full dps while moving, amazing single target dps and a fun rotation with infinite room to master.
    Yep, cause change or progression only happen if you're stupidly silent. Thanks for your input. Are you german perhaps?

  10. #850
    Quote Originally Posted by garonne View Post
    stormkeeper, chain lightning, static overload and lightning rod is actually pretty bursty AOE
    Leaving Stormkeeper aside, static overload is a proc whose impact is not that big unless Stormkeeper is up.

    Lightning Rod is a cool talent, but making it a proc was a bad decision, anyone who played with Prophecy of Fear knows why.

    If it procs on a mob that is about to die => buff wasted or it doesn't proc at all during a AoE situation.

    Lightning Rod *can* result in bursty AoE Dps with fully powered ES and Stormkeeper, but without doing the math, the major issue here is however that a 10% proc chance is not reliable enough.

    Making Lightning Rod proc based was a bad move in my view, if it was on use like previously you could really take advantage of Stormkeeper and ES synergy for short AoE phases.

    Quote Originally Posted by UcanDoSht View Post
    Yep, cause change or progression only happen if you're stupidly silent. Thanks for your input. Are you german perhaps?
    It's not what you say, but how you say it.

    Fittingly, the german language has a similiar proverb.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2016-05-03 at 03:15 PM.

  11. #851
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    It's not what you say, but how you say it.

    Fittingly, the german language has a similiar proverb.
    Which shouldnt be up for discussion at any point. I'm not a politician, a game dev nor your mum - I dont have to be nice to you at all.

  12. #852
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Leaving Stormkeeper aside, static overload is a proc whose impact is not that big unless Stormkeeper is up.

    Lightning Rod is a cool talent, but making it a proc was a bad decision, anyone who played with Prophecy of Fear knows why.

    If it procs on a mob that is about to die => buff wasted or it doesn't proc at all during a AoE situation.

    Lightning Rod *can* result in bursty AoE Dps with fully powered ES and Stormkeeper, but without doing the math, the major issue here is however that a 10% proc chance is not reliable enough.

    Making Lightning Rod proc based was a bad move in my view, if it was on use like previously you could really take advantage of Stormkeeper and ES synergy for short AoE phases.
    you say leave stormkeeper aside but stormkeeper alone is all thats needed to make it bursty, i added the rest to show how high it can get.

    With the current gameplay of elemental, we're very rng based because of mastery and crit (to a lesser extent). however, when it comes to AoE its more reliable because of the percentage chances+mobs.

    static overload is just extra chance added to our mastery. at base, with 0 mast, thats 26% on each target and CL hits 5 targets.

    Lightning rod procs WAY more than you give it credit for in a AoE situation. its no longer RPPM and it can apply the buff to each target individually. i agree control would be ideal but its still good nonetheless. Also, lightning rod as not being RPPM is not like prophecy of fear simply because lightning rod procs WAY MORE often, i.e. the gameplay is different.

    tl;dr The rng makes it not reliable, but with the increase in targets its more reliable than you give it credit for, all else fails, all you really need for the burst is Stormkeeper. SUPER chain lightning, plus your elemental cast its own chain lightnings.

  13. #853
    Quote Originally Posted by UcanDoSht View Post
    I dont have to be nice to you at all.
    I think the borders of that have been shown to you in the past, but yeah it's going offtopic.

    Quote Originally Posted by garonne View Post
    tl;dr The rng makes it not reliable, but with the increase in targets its more reliable than you give it credit for, all else fails, all you really need for the burst is Stormkeeper. SUPER chain lightning, plus your elemental cast its own chain lightnings.
    The issue is how many cl's will it take to proc it? After it proc'd, you'd have to sit down and channel Stormkeeper for 1.5sec and fire off 3 cl's for max value.

    That is quite some quite time and considering that your big Dps boost through Stormkeeper comes at the end of this cycle makes it even worse.

    Then there's still the thing on which target it procs, the first one that is about to die? Well proc kinda wasted.

    The proc chance is not the comparison i was going for with Prophecy of fear, it's the mechanic.

    With an on use ability you would solve the gameplay issue of Lightning rod pretty much.

    It simply makes from a gameplay standpoint more sense to me, Lightning rod is a mechanic where the game dictates you which target to focus rather than making this choice on your own.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2016-05-03 at 05:38 PM.

  14. #854
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post

    The issue is how many cl's will it take to proc it? After it proc'd, you'd have to sit down and channel Stormkeeper for 1.5sec and fire off 3 cl's for max value.

    That is quite some quite time and considering that your big Dps boost through Stormkeeper comes at the end of this cycle makes it even worse.

    Then there's still the thing on which target it procs, the first one that is about to die? Well proc kinda wasted.

    The proc chance is not the comparison i was going for with Prophecy of fear, it's the mechanic.

    With an on use ability you would solve the gameplay issue of Lightning rod pretty much.

    It simply makes from a gameplay standpoint more sense to me, Lightning rod is a mechanic where the game dictates you which target to focus rather than making this choice on your own.
    RNG has its own problems, but as i said, all you need is the stormkeeper so you'd just cast Stormkeeper and go to town.
    With Lightning rod, remember that each target has a 10% chance and i dont think there's an ICD on the proc so it can proc on ALL 5 targets. ofcourse we wouldnt be balanced around that but to get one charged i'd say is possible at the latest on the second cast.

    the on use AOE ability for ele is LMT but its rare that we get an encounter that requires aoe once a minute every minute and to also outweigh ascendance so i didn't mention it, but it is an option for more burst.

    i also understand youre talking about the mechanic of prophecy but the difference is that for prophecy you're fishing and then going to town so you're planning around it. you aren't fishing for lightning rod, it'll just proc, same way you dont fish for your mastery.

    just to reiterate, stormkeeper is all you NEED for the burst, RNG is shit because its uncontrollable, but with aoe Lightning rod is more reliable.

    - - - Updated - - -

    as far as talents go, I'd prefer they move LMT to teir 60 in place of Ancestral Swiftness, Roll Ancestral Swiftness into Totem Mastery and make a new talent.

    LMT competition with Ascendance is just too much, either ascendance is not strong enough or we may use LMT very scarcely.

    either way, they should get rid of ancestral swiftness and roll it into totem mastery and make another talent for that row, EoTE is already a passive option.

  15. #855
    Quote Originally Posted by garonne View Post
    With Lightning rod, remember that each target has a 10% chance and i dont think there's an ICD on the proc so it can proc on ALL 5 targets.
    That's just it, you cannot control on which target Lightning rod procs.

    If it procs in a AoE situation with certain priorities, like Iskar, it's awful because you now have to now suddenly focus a different target simply because Lightning rod procc'd on a random target.

    Or an encounter where AoE adds die super fast, there's simply no room for: Casting 1-2x Cl, casting Stormkeeper, casting Cl three times, it takes too much time.

    If it was on use, you could easily use Lightning rod, take something like Beastlord Darmac, put Lightning Rod on Darmac, pre cast Stormkeeper, adds come in, spam Cl and that's it.

    Quote Originally Posted by garonne View Post
    the on use AOE ability for ele is LMT but its rare that we get an encounter that requires aoe once a minute every minute and to also outweigh ascendance so i didn't mention it, but it is an option for more burst.
    The issue that's that adds that spawn every minute usually die in less than 15 seconds, unless the whole encounter is centered around killing those adds.

    The mechanic isn't really something great, less static Earthquake but that's it.

    LMT didn't really take off in WoD, unless they buff it through the roof i doubt that will change in Legion.

    Quote Originally Posted by garonne View Post
    i also understand youre talking about the mechanic of prophecy but the difference is that for prophecy you're fishing and then going to town so you're planning around it. you aren't fishing for lightning rod, it'll just proc, same way you dont fish for your mastery.
    You seem to misunderstand the Prophecy of fear comparison.

    A major issue on a AoE situation is simply that Prophecy of Fear can proc on a wrong target, now i have to focus the wrong target for more dps, that's not good.
    Another thing is that the Target with Prophecy of Fear may be about to die, which wastes the buff.

    Sure, Lightning rod can just proc on another / new target but if you tie a rather crucial talent like Stormkeeper to it, you don't really want to delay it because losing possible uptime (Or a empowered Cl) is bad.

  16. #856
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    That's just it, you cannot control on which target Lightning rod procs.

    If it procs in a AoE situation with certain priorities, like Iskar, it's awful because you now have to now suddenly focus a different target simply because Lightning rod procc'd on a random target.

    Or an encounter where AoE adds die super fast, there's simply no room for: Casting 1-2x Cl, casting Stormkeeper, casting Cl three times, it takes too much time.

    If it was on use, you could easily use Lightning rod, take something like Beastlord Darmac, put Lightning Rod on Darmac, pre cast Stormkeeper, adds come in, spam Cl and that's it.
    if you're AoEing iskar adds and lightning rod doesn't proc on your priority target, you do not switch. CL will still reach the add and will still proc lightning rod on your main target. CL doesn't lose damage on adds anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    The issue that's that adds that spawn every minute usually die in less than 15 seconds, unless the whole encounter is centered around killing those adds.

    The mechanic isn't really something great, less static Earthquake but that's it.

    LMT didn't really take off in WoD, unless they buff it through the roof i doubt that will change in Legion.
    i dont disagree here, but LMT is still the on use AOE. how they buff/nerf it will determine its usability, especially against ascendance.



    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    You seem to misunderstand the Prophecy of fear comparison.

    A major issue on a AoE situation is simply that Prophecy of Fear can proc on a wrong target, now i have to focus the wrong target for more dps, that's not good.
    Another thing is that the Target with Prophecy of Fear may be about to die, which wastes the buff.

    Sure, Lightning rod can just proc on another / new target but if you tie a rather crucial talent like Stormkeeper to it, you don't really want to delay it because losing possible uptime (Or a empowered Cl) is bad.
    prophecy is not Lightning rod, the fact its a rppm with a low rppm at that means its strong when its up and if you miss it or as you say, on a different target thats a lot of missing dps. but what im trying to tell you is that lightning rod DOES NOT play the same way. for prophecy you'd fish and when its up burn everything you have on whichever target it procs on. with lightning rod you go about your day.

    I do want to point out though, im not talking about 7+ targets. thats not our niche and is our weakness as far as AoE goes. if this is what youre talking about then lightning rod and stormkeeper wont save you. you're better off letting another class do that job

  17. #857
    Quote Originally Posted by garonne View Post
    if you're AoEing iskar adds and lightning rod doesn't proc on your priority target, you do not switch.
    Only works < 5 targets, if there is any additional add you better switch that target.

    Quote Originally Posted by garonne View Post
    I do want to point out though, im not talking about 7+ targets. thats not our niche and is our weakness as far as AoE goes.
    AoE tools can become less effective with a lot of targets but they shouldn't become more clunky.

  18. #858
    Deleted
    Hey guys as an elemental-shaman without an Alpha key I was wondering if anyone have any logs for me of legion raids/dungeons with an ele in it, ofc .

    If I am not mistaken addons are now enabled on Alpha as well. I have seen some logs where elemental was "average" in raids and really superb in 5 man-dungeons.

  19. #859
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    AoE tools can become less effective with a lot of targets but they shouldn't become more clunky.
    i understand, but i'd probably wager that they'd say you have LMT and EQ for >5 targets. if thats what the poster was asking about then yes, we dont have that kind of aoe and is just one weakness we have. we most likely wont be competing against http://legion.wowhead.com/spell=196277/implosion
    or
    http://legion.wowhead.com/spell=207317/epidemic
    or DH eye beam

  20. #860
    Deleted
    yeah , i agree totally

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