Streamlined Dungeons

[Deleted]

I honestly don't see that many good players anymore, they can't handle CC or a little bit of challenge which is why LFR is around and LFD has to be dumbed down so much.

CC doesn't matter. Even if you master 100% of dps&tanking&healing it doesn't matter. It's normal for top 100 guilds - they don't even put in on their list anymore. You do not see how incredible the challenge aspect has evolved. And almost all legacy supporters don't see it. Whatever you think is difficult got trivial and normal 12 years ago.

[Bosen]

I think simple Dungeons are OK sometimes. I enjoyed Shattered Halls. Scary.

[Supercool]

CC doesn't matter. Even if you master 100% of dps&tanking&healing it doesn't matter. It's normal for top 100 guilds - they don't even put in on their list anymore. You do not see how incredible the challenge aspect has evolved. And almost all legacy supporters don't see it. Whatever you think is difficult got trivial and normal 12 years ago.

For me, challenge in fights comes from reactive mechanics. I have to interrupt. The mob enraged and the tank has to kite or get one-shot.

Proactive things like CC require a bit of skill to use properly, but they're quickly mastered and once you're in the groove, it just becomes a dull series of "CC everything, pull one mob at a time." Failure becomes impossible at that point.

[Anguirel]

I feel like there are solutions to these issues that allow both groups to mostly enjoy the game without too many issues of contention. A couple simple ones that immediately come to mind:

1) Wing-out the dungeons, and lock them down for LFD (see also, how LFR slices up multi-path raids). This was somewhat done with the initial slicing of BRD and Dire Maul and Maraudon, but wasn't really handled very well. It could be expanded upon -- i.e. actually lock out some regions for LFD, just like Blackrock Foundry and Hellfire Citadel do. Queue via LFD, you get these 4 bosees, nothing else. Sure, there's 12 total in there if you enter with a pre-made group through the portal, but each LFD wing only hits 4. This is probably the initial ideal method, since content is fully usable by both groups.

2) Don't list every dungeon in LFD (or maybe allow a limited list / full list queue type for LFD). Go ahead and make some instanced mazes for people that want them. Potentially even give them a decent LFD-ish reward as a completion bonus for expected time-investment (e.g. every X bosses gives an optional-requirement reward equivalent to a LFD completion). Put some neat unique transmog skins in there as an incentive, maybe, or some toys, but no super-special trinkets or power rewards that would make them considered necessary. Super-extra-bonus: Make the Mythic+ type challenge runs require a subset of the bosses, but not lock down the routes. Different specific bosses each time you go in. For those who remember trying to get specific gear drops from those old sprawls, it'd be like BRD and LBRS where people would pick a subset of bosses and figure out how to reach just those guys. Bring that feeling back a bit and let people who know all the alternate routes and cross-over points craft interesting paths to hit the bosses needed. Bonus here being it would not be the same route every time you go in.

People who want streamlined dungeons with associated streamlined rewards get that. People who want some longer dungeon delving experiences have that available, but it isn't required content. Everyone wins.

[Spocktimus]

I feel like there are solutions to these issues that allow both groups to mostly enjoy the game without too many issues of contention. A couple simple ones that immediately come to mind:

1) Wing-out the dungeons, and lock them down for LFD (see also, how LFR slices up multi-path raids). This was somewhat done with the initial slicing of BRD and Dire Maul and Maraudon, but wasn't really handled very well. It could be expanded upon -- i.e. actually lock out some regions for LFD, just like Blackrock Foundry and Hellfire Citadel do. Queue via LFD, you get these 4 bosees, nothing else. Sure, there's 12 total in there if you enter with a pre-made group through the portal, but each LFD wing only hits 4. This is probably the initial ideal method, since content is fully usable by both groups.

2) Don't list every dungeon in LFD (or maybe allow a limited list / full list queue type for LFD). Go ahead and make some instanced mazes for people that want them. Potentially even give them a decent LFD-ish reward as a completion bonus for expected time-investment (e.g. every X bosses gives an optional-requirement reward equivalent to a LFD completion). Put some neat unique transmog skins in there as an incentive, maybe, or some toys, but no super-special trinkets or power rewards that would make them considered necessary. Super-extra-bonus: Make the Mythic+ type challenge runs require a subset of the bosses, but not lock down the routes. Different specific bosses each time you go in. For those who remember trying to get specific gear drops from those old sprawls, it'd be like BRD and LBRS where people would pick a subset of bosses and figure out how to reach just those guys. Bring that feeling back a bit and let people who know all the alternate routes and cross-over points craft interesting paths to hit the bosses needed. Bonus here being it would not be the same route every time you go in.

People who want streamlined dungeons with associated streamlined rewards get that. People who want some longer dungeon delving experiences have that available, but it isn't required content. Everyone wins.

I really like this idea, but i feel like for Blizzard it would be a lot of work that they would see no value in doing.

[Seefer]

CC doesn't matter. Even if you master 100% of dps&tanking&healing it doesn't matter. It's normal for top 100 guilds - they don't even put in on their list anymore. You do not see how incredible the challenge aspect has evolved. And almost all legacy supporters don't see it. Whatever you think is difficult got trivial and normal 12 years ago.

You confuse me, you say it got trivial 12 years ago yet that is when WoW came out when it was expected to know how to cc properly, people couldn't cc properly today to save their lives..........look at Cata dungeons! If you have mechanics like today and add in CC people would be FUCKED, they are so used to go go go and not having to use their brain in dungeons it's disturbing, dungeons back in Vanilla/TBC prepared you for raiding, now? Not in the least.

[Guy4123]

How about keep the streamlined 5 man dungeons, and make some more 10 man dungeons again like the original Strah, Scholo, and LBRS/later UBRS that are more maze like.

The dungeon hubs should be like the BC ones with 3-4 wings at a dungeon location. 2-3 of them could be 5 mans with 1 being a 10 man. Give them the 2 tank 2 healer 6 DPS requirement and it better prepares people for what an actual raid setting is like too. They could add the pre raid dungeon sets again and have them drop in the 10 mans.

[Aggrophobic]

Meh. The fun of extra bosses and "twists and turns" is gone after the first time you do it. You usually just skiped the extra bosses anyway so there is little point and theres the fact that the dungeon you use in your example is a "noob" dungeon so it makes sense that it's not all that complicated to get through.

[aysatsana]

Quests are also like this. Feels like there is one clear path from A to B while questing now. It's like one big quest and you can't miss one along the way.

Before, you would have to visit different villages to get quests and group up to kill bosses. It felt more "open world", now it feels like a single player game.

[melodramocracy]

Because for every one of you OP, there's 20 other players who insist that having to actually learn a dungeon's layout (or even worse, figuring it out by trial / error) is completely draconian.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

Because dungeons are now competitive, not for RP or whatever nonsense people think is fun about having to double back through areas three times to complete all bosses.
If they made Challenge Mode classic scholo half the time would be running around.

I agree that during Classic dungeon LAYOUT was cool, but the dungeons themselves were horrible messes. The gear they dropped was either utterly pointless or insanely good, meaning you would skip half the bosses. On top of this, there was no incentive to DO the dungeons like the ones that were added in TBC and onward.
The floorplan was the only redeemable quality of the dungeon, sadly.

Now-a-days, with challenge in mind, its important to keep the dungeon succinct so everyone can have an equatable challenge.

Either way, once you realize that even an entire city being a dungeon like BRD could be speedran with mages and a paladin tank cutting the whole place down to 3-4 bosses in less than 20 minutes you understand why the community has evolved past this RP stuff.

[ShiyoKozuki]

New scholomance is god awful and we need an option to be able to run the classic one still.

Dungeons are really boring now. I think BRD was too extreme but stuff like strat and scholo were really, really enjoyable and fun. Dire maul was too.

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Yet most people always rush to get through it. Baron runs, righteous orb runs, etc. People want rewards and will do the most efficient way to do them.

Baron is the final boss of strat undead
??????????

Can people who didn't even play Vanilla WOW stop commenting on it?

[WintersLegion]

While a vocal group continually whines about how effort expended should equal reward most people often forget that quality of reward will also equal effort expended. And, simply put, dungeons are not rewarding enough to be worth doing optional bosses or dealing with labyrinthine corridors to most people.

Give an optional dungeon boss a 10-20% chance to drop an item equivalent to a heroic raid piece and people would be demanding the group do the optional boss.

And that point it's not actually an optional boss

[Seefer]

While a vocal group continually whines about how effort expended should equal reward most people often forget that quality of reward will also equal effort expended. And, simply put, dungeons are not rewarding enough to be worth doing optional bosses or dealing with labyrinthine corridors to most people.

Give an optional dungeon boss a 10-20% chance to drop an item equivalent to a heroic raid piece and people would be demanding the group do the optional boss.

Back then people were happy with the loot they got, now unless it's purple people cry, of course it doesn't help that purple is the new blue, orange is the new purple, and green is now vendor trash.

[Deleted]

Current design team have no idea what they're doing that's why. Warlords spoke for itself and I'm not holding my breath for Legion either.


So far there is only a handful of things I like about legion



Likes

- Illidan
- Artifact Weapons
- Sargeras
- Sylvanas Progression

Dislike

- Garrison 2.0
- Mediocre Dungeon designs
- Poor boss mechanics (very few stood out as "wow....." most of them were just recycled/hybrid spliced disasters)
- New PvP system is terrible, welcome to Call of Warcraft boys and girls, lets all prestige until the next expansion comes out!
- Garrison 2.0
- Lack of additional features (the wardrobe feature is great... about it really)
- Garrison 2.0

I feel I'm really not getting this whole Garrison 2.0 thing across, let me be more blunt - ORDER HALLS = GARRISON

Read this https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment..._its_end_game/

[Chrno]

This is exactly one of the reason some want classic realms. So actually be able to go dungeoneering
Man the old dungeons rocked back then Some of my best memory's in those places.

i dislike the new style very much.

[ls-]

Well, it's consequence of how players run dungs. Majority of people were skipping optional bosses, there always was an optimal way to clear the dung. Blizz are bringing optional bosses and rare spawns back from time to time, they did it in WoD, they'll do even more in Legion, but majority of playerbase doesn't care.

[Trickname]

I don't think people do like it based on what I've read on these forums. There have been loads of threads with people voicing their distaste about the changing of classic dungeons an a move away from vanilla style 5 mans. It's just another case of Blizzard believing they know what players want.

On the otherhand, since they decided 5 mans should be all but useless 2 weeks after launch there is no point making them more complex. Also people will only do the absolute minimum these days anyway. Remember halls of light (or was it origination?) people just ignored anything but the shortest route to the last boss for their valor points.

[Chrno]

Because dungeons are now competitive, not for RP or whatever nonsense people think is fun about having to double back through areas three times to complete all bosses.
If they made Challenge Mode classic scholo half the time would be running around.

I agree that during Classic dungeon LAYOUT was cool, but the dungeons themselves were horrible messes. The gear they dropped was either utterly pointless or insanely good, meaning you would skip half the bosses. On top of this, there was no incentive to DO the dungeons like the ones that were added in TBC and onward.
The floorplan was the only redeemable quality of the dungeon, sadly.

Now-a-days, with challenge in mind, its important to keep the dungeon succinct so everyone can have an equatable challenge.

Either way, once you realize that even an entire city being a dungeon like BRD could be speedran with mages and a paladin tank cutting the whole place down to 3-4 bosses in less than 20 minutes you understand why the community has evolved past this RP stuff.

I ran 4 mythic dungeons last sunday evening
1 paladin tank, 4 dps ... 20 min per dungeon with 3/4 bosses. Speedruns will happen and that's ok, because it's fun.
But i cleared all of those big dungeons multiple times back then as speedruns and as normal runs and that was even better!! because it gave me choice.

I remember when Scarlet monastary was actually 1 dungeons instead of 4. We used to travel their (no flightpath close ><) and sometimes do 1, the armory mostly or the church thingy. But often we did 3 or 4 wings. Those times were absolutely amazing for people who like doing dungeons for the sake of doing dungeons with buddy's.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't think people do like it based on what I've read on these forums. There have been loads of threads with people voicing their distaste about the changing of classic dungeons an a move away from vanilla style 5 mans. It's just another case of Blizzard believing they know what players want.

On the otherhand, since they decided 5 mans should be all but useless 2 weeks after launch there is no point making them more complex. Also people will only do the absolute minimum these days anyway. Remember halls of light (or was it origination?) people just ignored anything but the shortest route to the last boss for their valor points.

yes i also agree with this. dungeons became shallow and completely optional altogether. You can just skip them right into raiding

[Sierra85]

dungeons used to be better when patrols would wipe you, and the layout was more mazelike. Now-adays everything is spoonfed to idiots who can't learn or cc. it's shameful.