Remove the group finder tool

[Joozt]

Right, you're not understanding what people are saying. The game design caused the formation of communities, nobody is claiming the whole server was some Kumbaya singing hippie community as you seem to think. It was the same small group of people on your realm so you kept bumping into them, they existed in the same persistent world as you, and there were benefits from getting to know people and grouping with them -- that inevitably results in communities forming. With the introduction of xrealm/LFG/LFR those incentives are gone, and so are the communities. It makes perfect sense, it matches what can be seen in the game, and it matches many people's experiences.

Yup this sums up the issues with the current live version

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Like many mentioned, it was added out of necessity.

But is that still the case I dont think it is with merge server tech and duel spec talents

[ShiyoKozuki]

It's not gonna be removed. EVER.

It was added out of necessity: Dungeons were not being accessed by the majority of the player base. The communtiy-imposed gating to access FoS, PoS and HoR (Wrath's last 3 dungeons) using Gearscore forced Blizzard to intervene. Not that those asking for LFD and LFR to removed care: ThEY were likely the reason it was added in the first place.

I didn't have a problem with attunements but I had a big problem with Gearscore and the other community-imposed gating used to exclude the majority from dungeons and raids. I was no slacker. I did dailies and dungeons and was just barely geared to tank each tier of content. Yet I did it anyway. Even though I struggled, it was clear to the groups I tanked in I knew my shit. The problem was I didn't have strong enough gear to do the job. Why? Because of Gearscore. If your GS is below 1600 (my GS was 1840 before LFD was introduced), you're automatically excluded from raiding the current tier. The problem with this "logic" is you often couldn't find enough people either willing or geared enough to raid the previous tier so you could get some gear. That or folks would sign up then decide after you start they suddenly can't stay for the whole run and the run falls apart. It's a catch-22: You need to run dungeons and raids to get geared for the current content but if you can't find people willing take you, you're screwed.

This was my situation until LFD was introduced. It wasn't from laziness or looking to be carried. Folks just looked at my gear and cheevos and politely told me to fuck off and go do the previous tier. LFD changed the game and for me, it was a fucking godsend. I was able to do current content for the first time. I got geared enough in Wrath to clear 25-Man Argent Tournament. Cataclysm was the first time I did all raid tiers of an expansion while they were current. I did them with a guild but LFD made it a hell of a lot easier--and faster--to get geared.

The pushback from Blizzard on this topic when Cataclysm was in Beta should've been the wakeup call for the elitists. If "the server community aspect died with LFD/LFR", it wasn't a very strong community to have quickly died off. The better arguement would have been to say Faction Change killed the server community: I remember when it was introduced--whole guilds faction changed to make the already lop-sided Alliance/Horde ratio on the server WORSE. LOL.

I was on 4 servers around the time Faction Change was introduced. Folks have NO IDEA how much it changed the game, especially when it was first introduced. You literally had a max exodus. Guild Transfer simply sped up the process. LOL.

Seems to me like you were anti-social and had no friends, so the game changed to cater to you and now we have an extremely anti-social game.

Yeah, catering to YOU is actually unhealthy and BAD for the game.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Just the mere fact that we could do and maintain a "blacklist" back then is a testament of something because we sure as hell can't keep track of them now.

Sure we can. It's called "ignore". You can even review your list and revise it if you want. I use it for obnoxious behavior in groups, and also when I see racist and/or hate speech in trade chat. People I don't care to share my game with.

I can only remember revising my list once. There was a kid in the guild who used to ask every day to join the groups I was tanking/leading, but then he admitted the reason his dps sucked was that he was facebooking while group was running. I put him on ignore so I wouldn't accidentally add him to a group again. Later a mutual friend intervened and asked me to give him a 2nd chance, and he was on his best behavior thereafter.

[Danthon]

I'm gonna post an excerpt from a GenForum post i made earlier about the same topic

"I understand that because LFD/G has been introduced and probably can't be taken away at this point (much like flying) most all 5 mans need to be balanced around having 5 sub-par players who have no synergy or thought about group dynamic

But even if most dungeons have to be that way I don't see why they all must. Can we not have a 5 man like BRS to do at max level that isn't included in LFG? Something approaching current raid difficulty but only requiring 5 people.

Blizz seems to think that skill was what prevented people from raiding, but it is/wasn't. It's collecting 10-20 people you can stand that have the same schedule, and being able to consistently meet that schedule.

I think a lot of people would come back for non-brain-dead dungeons they could pug or do with 4 friends if the reward was scaled appropriately."

I think this idea would go a long ways to solve the issues LFG presents while not taking away the LFG candy

[Deleted]

I dont play games wihtout group finders.

I remember what a fucking nightmare it was to get groups and travel to instances, it was fine when I was back in college or uni, but I have less time to game now, so its just a waste of my time to piss around like that now.

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"I understand that because LFD/G has been introduced and probably can't be taken away at this point (much like flying) most all 5 mans need to be balanced around having 5 sub-par players who have no synergy or thought about group dynamic

bullshit. you can have hard dungeons, just have a range, have them so that some are fucking difficult. but make rewards on a par, maybe not equal. Then people are not compelled to run the hardest to keep up, so no whinign about being too hard. yes you'll say people will only run the easiest....fine, they should have never bitched abotu things being too easy if they do that when offered a choice.

[Usagi Senshi]

I don't know if you were around before LFG, but what ultimately ruined the community and made it into the troll fest it is today is the LFG tool. I know it's hard to believe but before LFG, random people in WoW used to be nice to each other. Interacting with other players on your realm and having a sort of realm reputation were a thing back in the day. LFG took that away and gave people the liberty to be cancerous and toxic little shits...

Obviously if you weren't around i don't expect you to understand, but it was much better when we didn't have LFG.

Eh, WRONG!

People still acted like dickheads before the LFD tool was added in and I was there from the start playing on Zuljin (and then Eitrigg). People leaving early and loot stealing happened quite a lot as well and the blacklisting of these players barely made a difference ultimately. WoW was a trollfest from the start, so I ask your question back at you: "Where were you?"

Ironically enough, the very tool you despise actually netted me a handful of friends (three with whom I played quite a few PVP matches with) I've played on and off with once they added in Battletags.

Also, come play FFXIV with me so you can see some real realm (12k on my realm, Faerie) community in action that peacefully coexists with everything being damn near random queue-able.

Most of WoW's playerbase (lots of wonderful players still just teh loud and obnoxious brats drown them out) is the issue, not the tools that you can utilize in game.

[tankbug]

It's not just the tool or the xrealm mechanism that's the problem, it's this:

"LFM imba DPS, outgear content, have all achievements or no invite"

They don't care about you as a player, they just want to benefit from what your character can do for them.
If they could bot the whole thing, they would.

That's the main reason why the community has gone to shit, people just want the rewards, and don't enjoy having to deal with people.

[Dontrike]

I have no idea why people think that the game was more social before LFR and LFD. The games social state is the same as it has always been, you never needed to talk to anyone past whispering them "invite" or "need a <<spec><class>>?" All getting into a group before LFG did was make you sit around waiting for a tank or healer for 20 minutes as you did something else while tabbed out, you never need to speak to anyone past important information. The same type of people are still here since the game came out, just less of them right now. You still have the hyper people, the nice people, the morons, the ragers, the haters, the basket cases, and the silent ones.

If you want to be social, be social, that is up to you, not the game to provide. For most all they want to do is to play the game and not be bothered with making "friends" with someone who they will never see again. That's like asking you to make friends with the person behind you in line at McDonald's. Most people you play with are nothing more than acquaintances, who at the end of the day was a means to an end. Make friends with people you know you will play with longer, like people in your guild or those that you see longer, not that hunter you spend 20 minutes with in Violet Hold.

[Lilija]

It's not just the tool or the xrealm mechanism that's the problem, it's this:

"LFM imba DPS, outgear content, have all achievements or no invite"

They don't care about you as a player, they just want to benefit from what your character can do for them.
If they could bot the whole thing, they would.

That's the main reason why the community has gone to shit, people just want the rewards, and don't enjoy having to deal with people.

The thing is the community was exactly like that since day one. People didn't want to run stuff with randoms unless someone was fitting the FotM. When most specs got fixed in WotLK the gear and achievements expectations started. In the world of PUGs people always wanted to do things the easiest way and they looked for people to group with to make the experience the easiest possible for themselves.

[tankbug]

The thing is the community was exactly like that since day one. People didn't want to run stuff with randoms unless someone was fitting the FotM. When most specs got fixed in WotLK the gear and achievements expectations started. In the world of PUGs people always wanted to do things the easiest way and they looked for people to group with to make the experience the easiest possible for themselves.

Well, yes and no. Back when people didn't know the game so well, they weren't as critical to people's specs or gear or experience. So this isn't anything new in WoD, but all since WotlK, you have to supply the right metrics, or people aren't interested in including you. If you're not optimized, you're shit. And that kind of fascism we didn't have in vanilla. Who's fault is it? Ours...we know the game too well, and we aren't interested enough in the game anymore to spend 30 minutes more than necessary in raids, even if that means sitting waiting 1 hour more in group finder to find the best geared players.

[Lilija]

Well, yes and no. Back when people didn't know the game so well, they weren't as critical to people's specs or gear or experience. So this isn't anything new in WoD, but all since WotlK, you have to supply the right metrics, or people aren't interested in including you. If you're not optimized, you're shit. And that kind of fascism we didn't have in vanilla. Who's fault is it? Ours...we know the game too well, and we aren't interested enough in the game anymore to spend 30 minutes more than necessary in raids, even if that means sitting waiting 1 hour more in group finder to find the best geared players.

I was a balance druid is Vanilla. That's why I know it was exactly the same as it is now ^^ Only because people didn't know enough about the game didn't stop them from acting like they know everything. Elitist cluelessness existed in this game within the first year of Vanilla. Dunno where it got from (maybe fro Everquest but really who knows) but for sure it was there.

[tankbug]

I was a balance druid is Vanilla. That's why I know it was exactly the same as it is now ^^ Only because people didn't know enough about the game didn't stop them from acting like they know everything. Elitist cluelessness existed in this game within the first year of Vanilla. Dunno where it got from (maybe fro Everquest but really who knows) but for sure it was there.

Well, I guess our experiences differ a little, so I will try not to generalize too much, but I remember we raided with no damage meter, little focus on stats (purple>blue no matter), no idea about the rotation of other classes, ofc no achievements, no gear score or item level, no cookie cutter builds and just having a "do your best" - attitude. Ofc, if people died over and over for stupid reasons, they would get corrected or kicked, but we didn't close the door on them because they didn't have a good setup.

[Lilija]

Well, I guess our experiences differ a little, so I will try not to generalize too much, but I remember we raided with no damage meter, little focus on stats (purple>blue no matter), no idea about the rotation of other classes, ofc no achievements, no gear score or item level, no cookie cutter builds and just having a "do your best" - attitude. Ofc, if people died over and over for stupid reasons, they would get corrected or kicked, but we didn't close the door on them because they didn't have a good setup.

I guess it dependet on if you were playing a "proper spec". Hybrids were healers not because they couldn't perform (as you said, no dmg meter so hardly anyone knew really for most time). Hybrids were healers because people said so and actually noone really wanted to heal. You know, there was thing running joke about druids. You might remember how druids were decribed on Blizzad pages as a class that can perform 3 roles: tank, healer, dps. We used to say that indeed we can perform 3 roles: heal with Healing Touch, heal with Regrowth, heal with Rejuvenation :P

[Aurabolt]

I have no idea why people think that the game was more social before LFR and LFD. The games social state is the same as it has always been, you never needed to talk to anyone past whispering them "invite" or "need a <<spec><class>>?" All getting into a group before LFG did was make you sit around waiting for a tank or healer for 20 minutes as you did something else while tabbed out, you never need to speak to anyone past important information. The same type of people are still here since the game came out, just less of them right now. You still have the hyper people, the nice people, the morons, the ragers, the haters, the basket cases, and the silent ones.

If you want to be social, be social, that is up to you, not the game to provide. For most all they want to do is to play the game and not be bothered with making "friends" with someone who they will never see again. That's like asking you to make friends with the person behind you in line at McDonald's. Most people you play with are nothing more than acquaintances, who at the end of the day was a means to an end. Make friends with people you know you will play with longer, like people in your guild or those that you see longer, not that hunter you spend 20 minutes with in Violet Hold.

This x1000.

LFD and LFR had nothing to do with the perceived death of the community server aspect of WoW. Folks who never liked it just wanted something to blame for their own social-emotional issues. Everyone following this thread can easily think of alot of other things no one DARES talk about that are more relevant but doing so would seriously derail this thread if anyone were to go there. LOL.

...That said, I'll make a thread for this conversation now.

[torque6]

Agree with Dontrike, the aim of LFG tool was to create convenience. Having that removed only creates more problem finding a group for instances. You can make friends in your guild if you want. For me, I am not that sociable, I have been in and out of several guilds and have yet met anyone of them face to face before.

[Lilija]

I have no idea why people think that the game was more social before LFR and LFD. The games social state is the same as it has always been, you never needed to talk to anyone past whispering them "invite" or "need a <<spec><class>>?" All getting into a group before LFG did was make you sit around waiting for a tank or healer for 20 minutes as you did something else while tabbed out, you never need to speak to anyone past important information. The same type of people are still here since the game came out, just less of them right now. You still have the hyper people, the nice people, the morons, the ragers, the haters, the basket cases, and the silent ones.

If you want to be social, be social, that is up to you, not the game to provide. For most all they want to do is to play the game and not be bothered with making "friends" with someone who they will never see again. That's like asking you to make friends with the person behind you in line at McDonald's. Most people you play with are nothing more than acquaintances, who at the end of the day was a means to an end. Make friends with people you know you will play with longer, like people in your guild or those that you see longer, not that hunter you spend 20 minutes with in Violet Hold.

Really well said.

I would just like to add that if something, things like LFG/LFD/LFR and xrealm have the potential for more social interactions because they help bring people together. Now it's up to everyone if they want to use that to be social or not. For example, thx to xrealm, I had a chance to play in a really nice guild when I was without one. All thx to xrealm and OpenRaid that made it possible for me to play with a really great Mythic SoO PUG when my guild was on a break.

I would love if Blizzard explored that even further making it possible to do all activities xrealm (Mythic is excluded during prime progression time atm). Also, would love to see factions united for PvE purpose. Yeah, I know it might sound like a very far fetched idea but given that I have to now play Horde after 10 years of being Alliance only because we had issues recruiting people for raiding on Ally, making raids xfaction would be a dream come true for me. I don't like the fact that I had to make a choise between playing with friends and playing my fav race. I did realize that playing with friends was more important for me but it still pains me that I can't fullfill my toon fantasy the way I want. I know that if raiding would be xfaction, over half of my guild would go back to Alliance toons. Besides, this whole Ally vs Horde conflict doesn't make sense lore wise since TBC and it feels that it's kept there just for the sake of being there.

Anyway, to summarize, I would say that the "social" argument in this whole discussion has no ground what so ever.

[Aleksej89]

Most players do not want to spend X hours talking to various players just to form a party.

It was fun a decade ago but it is just no longer acceptable for a huge majority of the playerbase.

If you want to relive that kind of retro approach to wow, there are quite a few private servers.

[Spinster]

Not everybody is autistic...

Not all autistic people don't enjoy socializing.

In fact, I often wonder if those who rail against lfg aren't on the spectrum because they are so into forcing others to be social with them.

[toxicrusader]

Don't like it?
Don't use it.
That simple.

[ShiyoKozuki]

Eh, WRONG!

People still acted like dickheads before the LFD tool was added in and I was there from the start playing on Zuljin (and then Eitrigg). People leaving early and loot stealing happened quite a lot as well and the blacklisting of these players barely made a difference ultimately. WoW was a trollfest from the start, so I ask your question back at you: "Where were you?"

Ironically enough, the very tool you despise actually netted me a handful of friends (three with whom I played quite a few PVP matches with) I've played on and off with once they added in Battletags.

Also, come play FFXIV with me so you can see some real realm (12k on my realm, Faerie) community in action that peacefully coexists with everything being damn near random queue-able.

Most of WoW's playerbase (lots of wonderful players still just teh loud and obnoxious brats drown them out) is the issue, not the tools that you can utilize in game.

You can't do raids cross-server. It's why FF14's community is good.

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Don't like it?
Don't use it.
That simple.

Idiotic argument that literally doesn't work.

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the less interactions i have with people the better

also new and original topic

You shouldn't be playing a MMO.