Does Illidan feel any form of Compassion?

[Deleted]

What I wanted to ask the whole day, is the ending of Into the Void for someone who knows the Lore and played the Games just as stupid as it looks like if you watch it without ever playing a Starcraft game?

[Combatbutler]

Does it change the fact that he is a manipulative bastard? I say so, yes. Because it diminishes what should be the consequences for his actions. To the point that the only groups trying to kill him are for either false or selfish reasons:

a.) Akama just wants Black Temple
b.) Maiev just has a lady hatred boner for him.
c.) Horde and Alliance get tricked into thinking he's invading Azeroth.

I'm glad you brought up Arthas, because they actually did him correctly. Arthas' actions at Stratholme are still remembered during the events of Wrath of the Lich King. And when we finally take him down, it's for a BUNCH of different reasons. But the core of them is the threat to the world and all the terrible stuff he's done.

It would be if Arthas came back now and nobody had a problem with him because he'd help us try to fight the Legion. Which would be absolutely stupid.

It wouldn't change that much to be honest, he would simply become a global player who is harder to kill, by those whom he wronged. It doesn't mean he would be forgiven, just think about Sylvanas. She has pissed of quite a few people and the only reason she is still around, is because she is part of the horde. Illidan becoming light empowered, doesn't change his past or his sins, it just grants him more power and potentially a larger army to get things done.

So it isn't potentially bad right now, but it has potential to turn out really bad, I give you that.

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What I wanted to ask the whole day, is the ending of Into the Void for someone who knows the Lore and played the Games just as stupid as it looks like if you watch it without ever playing a Starcraft game?

That ending killed me a little inside.

Now, whenever Illidan inevitably comes back, if Maiev is all "RAWR GET HIM," I'll change my tune. But the fact that we've seen her so little and what we do see is really not this.
.

Isn't she trying to reclaim his corpse to lock it up again in legion, that should be a pretty good indicator, that she will never let him go.

[Deleted]

That ending killed me a little inside.

And how Kerrigan, who seemed to be pretty much Starcrafts Combination of Sylvanas and Arthas and led the Starcraft Scourge became the Bright Phoenix?

[Combatbutler]

And how Kerrigan, who seemed to be pretty much Starcrafts Combination of Sylvanas and Arthas and led the Starcraft Scourge became the Bright Phoenix?

Arthas and Sylvanas have nothing on kerrigan, they killed what a few millions(in Arthas case), Kerrigan butchered billions and burned a few worlds. But essentially she became a vessel that could hold the essence of a god like being, continuing their endless circle of rebirth and is now seeding new life in the cosmos with her boy toy.

While she was on a rampage there was an genetic encryption that influenced her and any other zerg, that impurity is purged in the first campaign and she becomes a proper vessel afterwards.

[Enthralled]

What? My point is pretty simple. He does all of this horrible shit but the book handwaves it away with this nonsense about him being the ultimate savior. There are several time where Illidan himself comments something to the effect of, "none of this matters, attacking Argus matters."

Even when we get to see the narration of Illidan's death in Black Temple, there's no remorse. Not even in his own thoughts. He acts astounded that Akama is betraying him, even after he was already caught. Illidan does not recognize that he's been a piece of dogshit individual. Maiev is the only one who even bothers to have an agenda for trying to kill him, and she does so out of her own self-interest (Which I like, don't get me wrong), rather than just him being an asshole.

Akama got the rawest end of the stick and nobody gave a shit except him. And it's because Illidan knew how to fight the Legion, therefore it was ok that he was being such a terrible individual.

How is any of this "whitewashing" Illidan, which is what you're charging? It doesn't. I think a lot of this book has gone "whooooosh" over your head; one of the biggest plot points of it was that he believed that the ends justified the means and he was so completely wrapped up in that idea that it brought him down. And you think that's a whitewash?

The book definitely is paving the way for a redemption arc, no doubt about it; but I didn't think it was making excuses for his behavior during his time in Black Temple -- it simply showed his thinking, which was "Nothing else matters but destroying the Legion". The way he went about doing what he did was pretty horrible. And he paid the price because everything crumbled around him and he got his arrogant ass kicked in the end.

And you think it was whitewashed?

[KrazyK923]

How is any of this "whitewashing" Illidan, which is what you're charging? It doesn't. I think a lot of this book has gone "whooooosh" over your head; one of the biggest plot points of it was that he believed that the ends justified the means and he was so completely wrapped up in that idea that it brought him down. And you think that's a whitewash?

The book definitely is paving the way for a redemption arc, no doubt about it; but I didn't think it was making excuses for his behavior during his time in Black Temple -- it simply showed his thinking, which was "Nothing else matters but destroying the Legion". The way he went about doing what he did was pretty horrible. And he paid the price because everything crumbled around him and he got his arrogant ass kicked in the end.

And you think it was whitewashed?

Yeah and if Illidan's death was the last we see of him in the lore then you're be right.

But it isn't. So that entire point is irrelevant. Worse than irrelevant, it showed that his death didn't matter because we are told by the narrative that he's going to be some messianic figure, a Light-filled Demon Hunter leading the army of the light against the Void Lords.

Some characters don't need a redemption arc. I'd argue most don't. Characters are fine the way they are. They don't need some bullshit hamfisted deus ex to be thrust upon them to make them ultimate saviors after they've been horrible pieces of shit.

At this point all we're doing in the story is wasting time trying to resurrect Illidan in some way. Which probably will happen either in 7.1 or in the raid patch with the inevitable Kil'jaeden fight.

Thanks for the condescension though.

[Enthralled]

Yeah and if Illidan's death was the last we see of him in the lore then you're be right.

But it isn't. So that entire point is irrelevant. Worse than irrelevant, it showed that his death didn't matter because we are told by the narrative that he's going to be some messianic figure, a Light-filled Demon Hunter leading the army of the light against the Void Lords.

Some characters don't need a redemption arc. I'd argue most don't. Characters are fine the way they are. They don't need some bullshit hamfisted deus ex to be thrust upon them to make them ultimate saviors after they've been horrible pieces of shit.

Thanks for the condescension though.

You're welcome, I guess?
So basically, your problem isn't that the book is a whitewash. It's that you don't want him coming back at all unless he's Raid Boss v. 2.0.

[KrazyK923]

You're welcome, I guess?
So basically, your problem isn't that the book is a whitewash. It's that you don't want him coming back at all unless he's Raid Boss v. 2.0.

Except it's not at all.

In fact I was happy Illidan was coming back because his role in BC was fucking stupid. But this stupid Xel'Naga storyline they've copy and pasted is still stupid even if I wanted Illidan to have an actual ending to his character.

And, yes, it was a whitewash. It's a whitewash through the knowledge that he'll be some stupid Kerrigan character, with Illidan never acknowledging he was a piece of shit (At least Kerrigan does), and Maiev being the only person even bothering to point out he's an asshole. And even then she barely does.

[Enthralled]

Except it's not at all.

In fact I was happy Illidan was coming back because his role in BC was fucking stupid. But this stupid Xel'Naga storyline they've copy and pasted is still stupid even if I wanted Illidan to have an actual ending to his character.

And, yes, it was a whitewash.

No. It wasn't. I don't think you even read it.
Also, we don't know how his story will play out. Such a complete and total freakout over one small scene in the book. It's funny, really.

[KrazyK923]

No. It wasn't. I don't think you even read it.
Also, we don't know how his story will play out. Such a complete and total freakout over one small scene in the book. It's funny, really.

If you're going to sit there and keep repeating I haven't read the book or that I don't understand it, I have no desire to continue with you.

The book isn't complicated at all. Just because you disagree doesn't mean I didn't understand it. Thanks again for the condescension.

[Enthralled]

If you're going to sit there and keep repeating I haven't read the book or that I don't understand it, I have no desire to continue with you.

The book isn't complicated at all. Just because you disagree doesn't mean I didn't understand it. Thanks again for the condescension.

Because the stuff you say about it is just objectively wrong. Like Maiev being the only one to point out that he's "an asshole". What does that even mean? Others in the book do as well, starting with Akama. People that she met with and tried to get support from all agreed that he was not a nice person. However he was not attacking them directly so they were not interested in attacking him at that time, which is true to the game. I don't get where you're getting this stuff from.

[purebalance]

Demon Hunters do something that is ultimately out of compassion, they sacrifice so that they may fight the Legion for the sake of others.

Illidans motivations have always been good, though his methods have some times been bad. In the Demon Hunter starting experience this gets brought up a lot and you get to see that they're all about self-sacrifice.

Oh please no they haven't. They've been under the guise of being good, but everything Illidan has ever done was for 2 people: Tyrande and himself. How to impress Tyrande? Protect the world. How to serve himself and that? Gain power at all costs. He is a very shallow character.

[KrazyK923]

Oh please no they haven't. They've been under the guise of being good, but everything Illidan has ever done was for 2 people: Tyrande and himself. How to impress Tyrande? Protect the world. How to serve himself and that? Gain power at all costs. He is a very shallow character.

Don't worry though because now that doesn't matter since he's going to save us all.

[Combatbutler]

Don't worry though because now that doesn't matter since he's going to save us all.

He saved the world before and got scorn in return and a sentence for life, for creating the new well of eternity. This situation does not need to be different, being light empowered doesn't necessarily make you good.

[KrazyK923]

He saved the world before and got scorn in return and a sentence for life, for creating the new well of eternity. This situation does not need to be different, being light empowered doesn't necessarily make you good.

...how did Illidan save the world in the WotA? He really did nothing but steal water because he didn't want to give up arcane magic. Other than that he flip flopped back and forth to first get power and then save Tyrande. And then get butthurt Malfurion wanted them to give up arcane magic. Not that that was even a smart decision, but Illidan wasn't against it for some noble reason. He was a selfish asshole.

The only time he actually did something for somebody other than himself or Tyrande was killing Tichondrius. And even then he did absorb the Skull of Gul'dan and was only really helping the Night Elves FOR Tyrande.

I guess we'll just agree to disagree. I think giving him this stupid deus ex Light power and making him the leader of the Army of the Light severely undercuts the point that he's supposed to be a selfish asshole who has done terrible things by saying he'll be the one to save everybody. Giving him that role is wholly unnecessary when they've set up other characters to fill that very role.

Nothing was wrong with Illidan being the selfish asshole who knew how to fight the Legion more than perhaps anybody else. He didn't also need to be the stupid chosen one of the Light who will lead the Army of the Light to victory and be some fusion Light-Demon Hunter blessed by an "Elder Naaru" (which is also randomly invented for this specific piece of information).

It would be slightly less annoying if the very role of "Leader of the Army of the Light" hadn't been being developed in the lore for years now and all fingers pointed to Anduin, only for them to turn around randomly and say it's Illidan suddenly. The "Army of the Light" idea is cliched and pretty stupid to begin with but at least they've been developing it for a while now. Illidan just randomly gets it attributed to him for...reasons? It was unnecessary. He already had his role in the story. What the hell is the point in stealing some other character's? Other than Blizzard just being fucking lazy and trying to compensate with how terrible BC's story was and how they handled Illidan.

I guess copying the literal exact idea from Starcraft 2's finale is the best we can get now in WoW storytelling. They really need to hire some narrative talent to create the overarching story in the game, and not just bounce authority over the story between Metzen and people who have been listening to him for 20 years.

[Combatbutler]

...how did Illidan save the world in the WotA? He really did nothing but steal water because he didn't want to give up arcane magic. Other than that he flip flopped back and forth to first get power and then save Tyrande. And then get butthurt Malfurion wanted them to give up arcane magic. Not that that was even a smart decision, but Illidan wasn't against it for some noble reason. He was a selfish asshole.

He did use a spell that sucked the demons through the well of eternity back into the nether, Archimonde and a vast demon army was still on the planet.

[KrazyK923]

He did use a spell that sucked the demons through the well of eternity back into the nether, Archimonde and a vast demon army was still on the planet.

Illidan had a plan but he was being used by the Old Gods. He stopped it after coming to his senses and then just ended up helping Malfurion.

I guess technically Malfurion and Illidan used the same idea, but its a big stretch to give the credit to Illidan.

Although before Knaak got his hands on the sequence of events and fucked it all up by introducing altered timelines, it was still Malfurion's idea.

Either way crediting Illidan with that is, as I said, a stretch. Oh and that entire plan was still just concocted to win Tyrande's love. Which once again is fine and I have no problems with. I don't particularly love Illidan as a character, but I have no problems with him either. That is until they decide to force other character's storylines that they've been developing for a while onto him in the most janky way possible with no explanation as to why, ruining (to me) the entire point of his character, only to make him seem even more important.

As if him being THE person on our side who could know how to stop the Legion wasn't enough. I guess it all stems from the fact that they introduced the Void Lords for no discernible reason except to have an even bigger bad, which is just rippling across the lore and destroying stuff they've set up previously.

[Chipskunk]

I'm choosing Altruis because I care for Akama :/

akama was nothing but a sniveling little backstabber only worried about his sacred temple, which he has done nothing with since BC. imo, akama should either play no part in legion other than to say illidan was right and then die in his beloved temple.

[Ethenil]

akama was nothing but a sniveling little backstabber only worried about his sacred temple, which he has done nothing with since BC. imo, akama should either play no part in legion other than to say illidan was right and then die in his beloved temple.

I disagree. Even though Illidan's objective was good, his means were horrible. He may have wanted to end the Legion, but he was undoubtebly mad. And I don't blame him, isolation can do that to the mind. Furthermore, Illidan didn't care to explain his purpose to Akama, making him think Illidan just wanted to lord over Outland.

And to further resolve him, Karabor was the holiest place on Draenor for the draenei, seeing it in that state must have been the stuff of nightmares.

All in all, I think it's good that Illidan was slain - this way, there's a possibility his madness has been cleansed and he can complete his objective the right way.