Classic World of Warcraft Discussion [Megathread]

[Eliseus]

Once again, Forum Logic provides answers that have eluded you. This is from early in my system of forum rationalization development and bold.blue had not been added yet. Let me quote for your education.



More seriously, while one assumes market saturation was coming into play by late 2008, the game took a hard easy turn across the board in 3.0.2 and wihtout blizzard's internal data, we have no idea how it impacted churn patterns. it seems certain that it would have impacted them but we can only speculate.

I just don't think I will ever get the forum logic. I apologize for still not understanding it

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You're purposefully glossing over the arguments provided by people against Legacy realms. I can't speak for other posters but I personally try not to add to the discussion unless I see something so patently false it needs to be questioned. It's pretty frustrating when the pro-Legacy circlejerk has dudes like the guy above posting giant fucking mean-spirited memes simply because they don't agree with the way the poster is framing their argument.

I'm actually not "glossing" over the arguments. I see them and want more support than your opinion. It's obviously different view of someones opinion, but people have literally said things like "this is how it is" etc... There is a difference between a discussion on the matter and "I'm right and here is why ........ oh, left my credibility at home".

Btw, I do agree with the above being uncalled for, though I may have chuckled a little. This then leads though into a straw man argument. That we are all evil and that this group of people is the only group of people to have people like this in it. You even literally had someone the other day that I've tried to be nothing but pleasant to who told me I'm toxic. So there is not only issue on all fields, but false accusations. Unless toxicity is just now people who disagree with someone. Then I guess I'm toxic.

[Thimagryn]

So all the above isn't happening? k.

Whether or not it's happening has little to do with the truth behind all you mentioned. People cancelling preorders and unsubbing WoW has more to do with people being unhappy with current state of WoW. You'll have people here saying they're cancelling for Legacy servers, but that doesn't mean they'll not resub to live if Legacy doesn't happen either.

Private servers aren't a good indicator for player interest. They're basically F2P versions of WoW, mixing those who actually want to play on Legacy servers with casuals who may simply want to try Vanilla or wish to play for free.

The thing about being talked more than ever is that it all comes after the wake of a private server being shut down by Blizzard, which is pretty big news.

None of this information is actually movement towards Legacy servers. The only thing really relevant to progress is what Blizzard is deciding after their meetup with the Nost team and with Mark Kern. You brought up facts to prop up a persuasive narrative. Would be like if I said children in Africa are going hungry while many people in America are obese. The facts are true on their own, but the implied narrative is not.

The point of my reply is to expose the absolute lack of objective information in your statements. Their relevance to the situation are not as intertwined as you think, because there is no correlation between any of them. For example, I never played on Nost servers but I signed the Petition. As did 250k others. This is a sizable number of interest, but signing the petition doesn't mean agreeing to pay $15/m to play on them if that was the only option we'd have. Or agreeing to servers that may never be upgraded to TBC and Wrath. Or agreeing to play on them for more than a month. Petitions are easy to sign, figuring the details to make Legacy a reality is not.

And when replying to someone who is inquiring whether or not there is any progress in Legacy servers happening? None of us are in any position to answer that question. Anything else being said is, well, trying to get others to drink Kool aid.

[Deficineiron]

I just don't think I will ever get the forum logic. I apologize for still not understanding it

Forum Logic is a philosophical approach to this forum which more or less consists of suspending disbelief and trying to integrate questionable and often mutually exclusive forum notions into a logical whole.

In the case above, there are many people who aggressively argue that the classic-bc game was a bad game. they sometimes use worse words than bad. yet we have to integrate this with the reality that classic became the most successful single video game ever (not counting early coin-ops) and bc only continued that. Often we are told they went up because they were new and they were still bad. Interestingly the time when the game begins to be a 'good' game is wotlk, when growth stopped then slowly started reversing.

All I have done is distill this priceless forum wisdom into a single coherent post. it presents a challenge because one has to simultaneously account for huge growth through 2.4.3, cessation of western growth a few months later, and make sure to note that the bad, bad classic/bc game somehow managed to saturate its potential western market.

Do you really want to argue against people who contend the above? If someone says 'classic was bad and only grew cuz was new' do you really think it is a productive use of time to try to debate this? I don't, but I do find Forum Logic puts all this sort of stuff into its own absurd capsule which does more to illustrate my point than 100 posts back and forth on the topic, which is much of what this thread has been.

It can be fun too. I have had to integrate the forum notion that while publicly traded companies generally ride herd tightly on their wholly owned subsidiary, bobby kotick would never ever do that with blizzard, and any broad direction changes post-merger (such as 3.0.2 tuning and related blue comments) are coincidental.

2 posters have contributed basic principles - one noted that increasing a mob's dmg to you and decreasing yours did NOT increase difficulty, but rather only increased Tedium. he disproved much of video game design theory from 1978 forward with one bold stroke. His Tedium Rule is now a central part of Forum Logic.

Another poster cleverly demanded proof of the outcome of a future event. His Helpful Unprovability Quandry is a central debate tenet for Forum Logic. We are currently negotiating whether it can be named after him

Finally, and a central part of this, is the difference between FUN and fun. anyone care to guess?

[Eliseus]

Whether or not it's happening has little to do with the truth behind all you mentioned. People cancelling preorders and unsubbing WoW has to do with people being unhappy with current state of WoW. Private servers don't really prove anything considering they're basically F2P versions of WoW, mixing those who actually want to play on Legacy servers with casuals who simply wanted to try Vanilla or wished to play for free. And the thing about being talked more than ever is that it all comes after the wake of a private server being shut down by Blizzard, which is pretty big news.

None of this information is actually movement towards Legacy servers. The only thing really relevant to progress is what Blizzard is deciding after their meetup with the Nost team and with Mark Kern. Everything else you brought up is pretty irrelevant.

Seems like a pretty big movement to hundreds of thousands of people. People have said and posted SS of them unsubbing and canceling preorders due to this. Everything I brought up is irrelevant to YOU. Doesn't mean it is irrelevant. Apparently enough is going on to warrant Blizzard giving Mark and Nost the time of day. Who am I kidding though, it's all fake.

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Forum Logic is a philosophical approach to this forum which more or less consists of suspending disbelief and trying to integrate questionable and often mutually exclusive forum notions into a logical whole.

In the case above, there are many people who aggressively argue that the classic-bc game was a bad game. they sometimes use worse words than bad. yet we have to integrate this with the reality that classic became the most successful single video game ever (not counting early coin-ops) and bc only continued that. Often we are told they went up because they were new and they were still bad. Interestingly the time when the game begins to be a 'good' game is wotlk, when growth stopped then slowly started reversing.

All I have done is distill this priceless forum wisdom into a single coherent post. it presents a challenge because one has to simultaneously account for huge growth through 2.4.3, cessation of western growth a few months later, and make sure to note that the bad, bad classic/bc game somehow managed to saturate its potential western market.

Do you really want to argue against people who contend the above? If someone says 'classic was bad and only grew cuz was new' do you really think it is a productive use of time to try to debate this? I don't, but I do find Forum Logic puts all this sort of stuff into its own absurd capsule which does more to illustrate my point than 100 posts back and forth on the topic, which is much of what this thread has been.

It can be fun too. I have had to integrate the forum notion that while publicly traded companies generally ride herd tightly on their wholly owned subsidiary, bobby kotick would never ever do that with blizzard, and any broad direction changes post-merger (such as 3.0.2 tuning and related blue comments) are coincidental.

2 posters have contributed basic principles - one noted that increasing a mob's dmg to you and decreasing yours did NOT increase difficulty, but rather only increased Tedium. he disproved much of video game design theory from 1978 forward with one bold stroke. His Tedium Rule is now a central part of Forum Logic.

Another poster cleverly demanded proof of the outcome of a future event. His Helpful Unprovability Quandry is a central debate tenet for Forum Logic. We are currently negotiating whether it can be named after him

Finally, and a central part of this, is the difference between FUN and fun. anyone care to guess?

This is definitely all interesting. It's hard to determine if it is a waste of my time though with what else I could be doing, though I should really know better when arguing with someone who creates an argument based off a fallacy.

[gamingmuscle]

Just look at the numbers retardmuscle, if you can't even get your data correct how dare you speak with some bs "mY StAtMeNt Is FaCtuAllY CoRreCt DeRp"
Your arguments are invalid at 99%

My data was correct. Linking the sub numbers just supports me.

I don't have high hopes but I'll try to explain the data I am talking about once more. It's not the Sub totals, but how much the sub total changed from the previous quarter (IE I am looking at a graph of the Slope of the subs graph.)


For X>0
F(x)=q(x)-q(x-1)
q(x) = sub total for quarter x after launch.
q(0)=0

So
F(1)=q(1)-q(1-1)=>q(1)-q(0)=>q(1)-0=1.5
F(2)=q(2)-1.5=>3.5-1.5=2

and so on. I charted 30 quarters worth for you. Graph that and it is very clearly not exponential, logarithmic is a better fit.

[Kyanion]

Seems like a pretty big movement to hundreds of thousands of people. People have said and posted SS of them unsubbing and canceling preorders due to this. Everything I brought up is irrelevant to YOU. Doesn't mean it is irrelevant. Apparently enough is going on to warrant Blizzard giving Mark and Nost the time of day. Who am I kidding though, it's all fake.

So how many people posted SS of them unsubbing and cancelling Legion preorders? A couple hundred? A very noisy minority of people is all they are.

Big movement from people that played on free realms in the supposed 'best times of WoW' had an 82% leave rate.

[Deficineiron]

Seems like a pretty big movement to hundreds of thousands of people. People have said and posted SS of them unsubbing and canceling preorders due to this. Everything I brought up is irrelevant to YOU. Doesn't mean it is irrelevant. Apparently enough is going on to warrant Blizzard giving Mark and Nost the time of day. Who am I kidding though, it's all fake.

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This is definitely all interesting. It's hard to determine if it is a waste of my time though with what else I could be doing, though I should really know better when arguing with someone who creates an argument based off a fallacy.

if you are here posting and reading, you already lost (me too)

the point is, folks here really said the stuff that forum logic cleans up a little and tries to make presentable.

consider it comic relief, or the court jester (think king leer's jester).

[Eliseus]

So how many people posted SS of them unsubbing and cancelling Legion preorders? A couple hundred? A very noisy minority of people is all they are.

Big movement from people that played on free realms in the supposed 'best times of WoW' had an 82% leave rate.

A movement only needs 1 person to say enough is enough to enact change.

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if you are here posting and reading, you already lost (me too)

the point is, folks here really said the stuff that forum logic cleans up a little and tries to make presentable.

consider it comic relief, or the court jester (think king leer's jester).

Realistically I would like the thread to be cleaned up to give actual feedback on the matter rather than a mess of who is right who is wrong. Real feedback on the matter that can be presented to Blizzard somehow all the sudden gets the thread very active again resulting in most of it just being lost to the abyss of the page count.

[Charge me Doctor]

snip

When you use modern standards for videogames and apply them to old games - you get bad games, by today standards. It's not exclusive to videogames, its not some sort of "forum logic". It's simply the true, if you apply modern standards to (most of) old stuff - it's bad stuff.

If you throw old wow into modern world it will die off in 4 or so months, people are not going to pay fucking 40$ and sub fee for this. I mean, they are going to do that, but the amount of said people is so small that it won't support the game

[Deficineiron]

A movement only needs 1 person to say enough is enough to enact change.

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Realistically I would like the thread to be cleaned up to give actual feedback on the matter rather than a mess of who is right who is wrong. Real feedback on the matter that can be presented to Blizzard somehow all the sudden gets the thread very active again resulting in most of it just being lost to the abyss of the page count.

hopeless on the thread.

an interesting approach would be a series of well-thought-out polls.

[Bapestar]

When you use modern standards for videogames and apply them to old games - you get bad games, by today standards. It's not exclusive to videogames, its not some sort of "forum logic". It's simply the true, if you apply modern standards to (most of) old stuff - it's bad stuff.

Not all the time.

[Wildmoon]

Not hard to see that WoW stopped growing much and stabilize in WotLK. From that point it was only about maintaining subs and slowing decline rate which Blizzard might have not done a good job with.

[Eliseus]

Not all the time.

And people wonder why I keep asking people to stop voicing their opinion as fact, then getting mad at me that it is "only their opinion". What you quoted is literally that person claiming what he believes to be true. Not just what you bolded, but the life span of a Classic server.

[Vineri]

Well, that's what happens when you steal intellectual property and use it

What if the game no longer exists? Vanilla no longer exists, in an way, shape, or form.

It is a game LOST IN TIME. It is not current WoW. It can not be played ever again.

What then?

[Thimagryn]

This is definitely all interesting. It's hard to determine if it is a waste of my time though with what else I could be doing, though I should really know better when arguing with someone who creates an argument based off a fallacy.

You need to start actually reading what's being written rather than making a judgement that anyone who is arguing with you thinks Legacy isn't gonna happen or is all a hoax.

Read any of my replies to you and you'll actually see I've never said anything of the sort. Just go through my reply history with this in mind - I'm pro Legacy servers with pragmatic grasp of reasons why they would be difficult to be implemented. The reason why I shut you down is because you're the kid counting his hens before they hatch and telling everyone to spread the word. I see that as no more than setting people up for disappointment.

[Charge me Doctor]

Not hard to see that WoW stopped growing much and stabilize in WotLK. From that point it was only about maintaining subs and slowing decline rate which Blizzard might have not done a good job with.

You know what's my issue with all these "subs" talks?
person 1 played WoW for 5 years, buys WoD, rushes to level 110, gets bored, quits - total time subbed: 1 month.
person 2 didn't played WoW at all, buys WoD, 1-110 couple of characters, runs around doing stuff that players supposed to do, gets bored, quits - total time subbed: 6 months.

Numbers are imaginable, but my point is - blizzard doesn't need (and can't) afford bringing back old players or satisfying needs of players who consume content in matter of week, they need to bring new players into the game, who take slow approach, who are not spoiled by "old game was better", who can actually enjoy and play the game (yes, yes, even if you don't like the game, it doesn't mean that millions of others can't enjoy it)

[AeneasBK]

What if the game no longer exists? Vanilla no longer exists, in an way, shape, or form.

It is a game LOST IN TIME. It is not current WoW. It can not be played ever again.

What then?

I'm as pro legacy as anyone, but that changes nothing; there's not a lot of point debating it.

[Goatfish]

Yeah! Same here! Nothing is the same anymore. Endgame raiding! Battlegrounds! Classes! Leveling up followed by questing! People talking in trade! Okay, last one doesn't work. Just, come on. This is still the same game, it's just evolved over time, whether a player likes that evolution or not is their opinion. The thread is over a 1000 pages because there's been people talking about so many different things that so many other people have to weigh in on.

Yeah! Rift and Guild Wars 2 and Aion, etc etc etc are all WoW too! The minor differences are what makes an mmo have its own spot. Trying to say Vanilla WoW is the same as current day is like trying to say Everquest is the same as Vanilla WoW. If you somehow really believe differently, go find yourself a vanilla server and play for a couple weeks. I feel like that might jog your memory to see just how much things have really changed over the years. Sometimes people just want to play regular old bejeweled instead of super mega candy crush blitz mode, and I don't blame them.

[Charge me Doctor]

And people wonder why I keep asking people to stop voicing their opinion as fact, then getting mad at me that it is "only their opinion". What you quoted is literally that person claiming what he believes to be true. Not just what you bolded, but the life span of a Classic server.

You say that players being much more demanding from videogames in 2016 than the were in 2004 is not a fact?

[Darsithis]

What if the game no longer exists? Vanilla no longer exists, in an way, shape, or form.

It is a game LOST IN TIME. It is not current WoW. It can not be played ever again.

What then?

So? It's not the first game to be "lost in time". Also, since the principal game is still in operation, Blizzard has a legal right to decide on the fate of its earlier incarnations.

I'm not saying that classic servers shouldn't exist. I'm just saying none of this is surprising to me, at all.