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  1. #21
    Banned BuckSparkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    Or just wait for the generation that's responsible for it to pass away naturally, and everyone else can cheer.
    Replacing the previous generation with the safe space generation is a negative thing.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    I have my own mental issues that might give me a little different insight into peoples actions... but is actual equality and making sure that everyone is cared for really such a terrible thing? It blows my mind that human greed is so deeply ingrained that we would rather watch people starve than ask a billionaire to give their workers higher pay or even just to spend their money at all on improving quality of life.

    I understand wanting people to try to help themselves a little, but it seems a common theme that we don't even want them to have the option of asking for help.
    because what you call for the betterment of humanity many times is not for the betterment of individuals

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Hammerfest View Post
    Yes. Few things are more unfair than equality. Inequality is actually more fair that equality... particularly when you're talking about how human beings have historically attempted to establish equality of outcomes. Those with determination and gifts are not permitted to exceed the outcomes of those without those qualities. Of course, the real joke is that (invariably) those who control such attempts/societies set themselves up as above (and therefore unequal to) those they rule.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    There is nothing quite so unfair and contrary to natural justice as forcing equality of outcome by taking away from the deserving to give to the undeserving
    The OP is talking about equality in terms of rights, not that everyone makes the same amount of money.

    When the OP does talk about financial stuff, they aren't saying everyone gets the same, but rather the base minimum be higher than starving to death in the streets.

    Of course there's a lot wrong with with unchecked equality, but there's also a lot wrong with unchecked capitalism too.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  4. #24
    "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

    This is a pretty good start. Right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

    The problems mount when you try to just straight up provide happiness outright. Most poor people in the 21st century (in the developed world, at least) have much better lives than the rich people of the 18th century had, but many are nonetheless upset because this kind of thing is relative. There will always be unhappy have-nots, and some effort should absolutely be made to help those in the most dire circumstances, but ultimately too much effort can undermine the whole, and actually increase suffering for all, if not in the short term, then at least in the long term.

  5. #25
    The Insane Daelak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    I have my own mental issues that might give me a little different insight into peoples actions... but is actual equality and making sure that everyone is cared for really such a terrible thing? It blows my mind that human greed is so deeply ingrained that we would rather watch people starve than ask a billionaire to give their workers higher pay or even just to spend their money at all on improving quality of life.

    I understand wanting people to try to help themselves a little, but it seems a common theme that we don't even want them to have the option of asking for help.
    It is a great thing, and it is only hampered by people who have responded above who are literally obsessed with moralizing who is more "deserving" or not even though the basic fundamentals of our modern economy and how goods and services are rendered has nothing to do with whoever is more "deserving". These are people that are so helplessly tied to this destructive ideology that they would rather see fellow citizens, hell cousins of their own blood suffer before acknowledging that their belief system is complete horseshit, designed and perpetuated by the wealthiest and most powerful among us who disseminate bullshit.
    Quote Originally Posted by zenkai View Post
    There is a problem, but I know just banning guns will fix the problem.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Greed.
    People that are on top need people to keep the small jobs running. If everyone was a millionaire then no one would work. It's in the interest of the wealthy to keep most of the population ground down.
    I isn't the wealthy that keeps people so called "ground down" it is individuals and their piss poor choices they make in life that keeps them selves ground down and because society will never lack in idiots that make those poor choices we have a over abundant supply of those idiots to fill the need of no skill low paid jobs

  7. #27
    Because at the end of the day, material wealth is far from the highest priority in most people's lives. People work hard not because they want to consume more but because they crave approval, status, and exclusivity. You don't buy a Lamborghini just because you like driving fast, you buy one because it's a symbol of your success that you can use to show off, and even more than that, because not everybody can have one and so if you do, then that makes you special in some way or another.

    Of course, this is the kind of stuff that nobody ever wants to admit, because we all imagine ourselves to be these self-assured confident types who don't care what other people think. However, this ignores the fact that people who genuinely don't care what others think of them tend not to present themselves very well. That jet setting CEO cares deeply about everyone else's opinion of him, the basement dwelling neckbeard probably doesn't.

  8. #28
    The Insane Daelak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyxn View Post
    because what you call for the betterment of humanity many times is not for the betterment of individuals
    Which is another bullshit myth, because if you gave the resources to the poorest people, you would directly benefit through higher wages, less taxation, higher property values, higher returns in equities, and stronger communities, so no, the collective benefit cannot be independent of the individual benefit, it's a symbiotic relationship.
    Quote Originally Posted by zenkai View Post
    There is a problem, but I know just banning guns will fix the problem.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuckSparkles View Post
    The world isn't a Disney movie.

    That is all that needs to be said.
    So why bother trying right?
    Putin khuliyo

  10. #30
    Banned BuckSparkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    So why bother trying right?
    They can try. They can even make small differences in their friend circles.

    But for all of humanity? Good luck with that.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    I have my own mental issues that might give me a little different insight into peoples actions... but is actual equality and making sure that everyone is cared for really such a terrible thing? It blows my mind that human greed is so deeply ingrained that we would rather watch people starve than ask a billionaire to give their workers higher pay or even just to spend their money at all on improving quality of life.

    I understand wanting people to try to help themselves a little, but it seems a common theme that we don't even want them to have the option of asking for help.
    Even funnier is that most of the people fighting against helping others in the US are staunch Christians...who apparently have no clue what Jesus advocated time and time again (hint: it had nothing to do with homosexuality or abortion) in the Gospels.

    There are a lot of factors involved, but the primary ones (as best as I can tell):
    - People think they work hard, but everyone else that they don't personally know doesn't work hard
    - People think that they will be rich one day too, so they don't want to see their future multi-million dollar compensation taxed much
    - Poor and middle class people think the rich got rich by working hard, and don't understand what really happens at the top
    - People are more easily swayed by simple arguments that are wrong than by complex arguments that are right
    - People prefer unrealistic black and white concepts over complex reality
    - People get suckered by logical fallacies all the time - http://utminers.utep.edu/omwilliamso.../fallacies.htm

  12. #32
    Godamn, what is wrong with you people? The OP is asking why we as a society don't prevent people from living in abject poverty, and youre all attacking the idea of eliminating all private property and spouting some shit about equality of outcomes.

  13. #33
    The Insane Daelak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuckSparkles View Post
    They can try. They can even make small differences in their friend circles.

    But for all of humanity? Good luck with that.
    This is the embodiment of the cutting edge of conservative ideas and policy for governance and increasing the QOL in developed countries.
    Quote Originally Posted by zenkai View Post
    There is a problem, but I know just banning guns will fix the problem.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    There is nothing quite so unfair and contrary to natural justice as forcing equality of outcome by taking away from the deserving to give to the undeserving
    Uh huh, because inheriting millions, or happening to be born white or male or straight or whatever make you deserving of better. Everyone who has it good in life has earned it through hard work and perseverance, yup.

    To the OP, no there is nothing wrong with furthering equality and bettering humanity. Sadly a lot of people feel threatened at the idea of the penthouse suite so to speak becoming a little more crowded. They want everything to themselves.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    That is not how it works. For 2 reasons.

    1, Humans are complex social creatures that organize themselves into interdependent social structures for mutual benefit. These structures are capable of creating other complex systems that smaller groups or individuals are unable to, but once in place it benefits all. Like infrastructure, law enforcement, public sanitation. Humans always organize themselves into societies. It is the nature of things. Societies that are more efficient at distributing their resources for the greatest good always prevail over other competing models.

    2, While wealth and power is often inherited the qualities that created them rarely are. A system that wants to promote upward mobility for those skilled or determined needs to provide equality of opportunity. Not outcome.

    Very few people advocate for equality of outcome.
    Just wanted to quote this so it appears in the thread again.

    "Equality" doesn't mean communism or communalism where everyone is equal economically. It doesn't mean shared property, and a squashing of personal gains.

    Equality means that the guy living in a trailer park and the high-powered Wall Street banker who are both busted for drug possession end up getting the same punishment. It means that no one is above, or immune to the law, and that society treats all crimes from all people the same.

    It means that all people have equal opportunity to achieve. Where people who are born into poverty are given the same access to an education (both primary and higher) whereby they're able to improve themselves and their living situation. This is where the coveted "meritocracy" still comes into play.

    It means that all people have equal opportunity to, like, not starve to death, and have equal access to shelter and healthcare. It means that, just because you're born to a higher income strata, it doesn't mean your life is worth more and that you should be better cared for over other people.

    It means that income is more equal than it is now. Not full equality, wherein a CEO is making as much as the janitor, because that would be insanity. But a world where the janitor is still able to make enough of a living to support themselves, free of government assistance, while the CEO isn't making more money than they could ever, in their lifetime, spend.
    Last edited by Krigaren; 2016-05-04 at 01:56 PM.
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  16. #36
    Banned BuckSparkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daelak View Post
    This is the embodiment of the cutting edge of conservative ideas and policy for governance and increasing the QOL in developed countries.
    Welcome to real life. The truth sometimes can hurt.

    The human race simply is not going to all hold hands and love and sing by the fire.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuckSparkles View Post
    Welcome to real life. The truth sometimes can hurt.

    The human race simply is not going to all hold hands and love and sing by the fire.
    Your ideology has nothing to do with reality, but a fringe view manufactured by established interests who keep the status quo. You perpetuate their bullshit for free, you don't even ask for money.
    Quote Originally Posted by zenkai View Post
    There is a problem, but I know just banning guns will fix the problem.

  18. #38
    Banned BuckSparkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daelak View Post
    Your ideology has nothing to do with reality, but a fringe view manufactured by established interests who keep the status quo. You perpetuate their bullshit for free, you don't even ask for money.
    So you are saying I am wrong about humans?

    Funny, why do we have nations, and those with and those without spanning across the world?

    Why don't we have just one big happy family?

    Oh yeah, human nature.

    Get mad at me all you want. Won't change the fact that humans simply are not fully interested in what the OP described.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by BuckSparkles View Post
    Welcome to real life. The truth sometimes can hurt.

    The human race simply is not going to all hold hands and love and sing by the fire.
    Of course not, but we can strive to be better than we are now. Civilization has been around for 6000 some odd years and hasn't come close to anything resembling perfection, and human nature is going to keep us striving to improve just to say that we did.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuckSparkles View Post
    So you are saying I am wrong about humans?

    Funny, why do we have nations, and those with and those without spanning across the world?

    Why don't we have just one big happy family?

    Oh yeah, human nature.
    Your own 'example' of human nature shows the inevitability of a technological and cultural singularity. From tribes, to nation-states, to modern countries, to continental unions.

    Those with control the flow of resources by manipulating the opinions and beliefs of people such as yourself, leaving you to demonize and moralize who 'deserves' what.
    Quote Originally Posted by zenkai View Post
    There is a problem, but I know just banning guns will fix the problem.

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