Arms Legion Discussion

[Toppy]

Except for the part were WoD Arms was actually a train wreck, and Legion Arms is just an "Ok" spec.

Just because one pile of shit is smaller doesnt stop it from being a pile of shit.

[Artunias]

Making the extension mechanic execute only isn't a bad idea, and I could get behind that with the other limits I've suggested to reduce RNG in the pre-execute rotation.

My main point was wanting to have a mechanical reason to encourage Mortal Strike usage, and simultaneously work against spam slam. Sure they can tune MS to hit hard enough to want us to press it. Do you just provide buffs to MS every content patch to keep up with mastery? In fact I'd probably argue buffing MS almost works against itself, because it just makes Shattered Defenses that much more powerful at the same time.

Our mastery is still incredibly powerful, even after all the nerfs. And when you combine that with Shattered Defenses it just becomes more and more important to hit things that gives you resets as opposed to things that won't.

[Suminod]

I wouldn't mind, at all, if they went back to the MoP MS as a rage Generator. It doesn't have to be like 15 or 20 rage but like 5 rage but bump it up the priority list, help with rage gen, and solve a lot of the other problems. Though I also much prefer the MoP and Cata Arms since they were exceptionally fun.

[Archimtiros]

Edit : In other news, can anybody elaborate on this? It dropped from the boss, so I guess it's a "next week we can kill it easy" item?



1000% dps? I don't even.

They're meant to be customizable catchup/progression mechanics, though nobody knows for sure yet how it'll work. Originally they were supposed to be crafted by Inscriptionists, but the patterns started dropping from bosses a couple weeks ago. I made a tweet about it,

https://twitter.com/Archimtiros/stat...96200953843712

Which summarily blew up due to Celestalons typical non-answer (obviously 1,000% isn't intended, but even 10% makes a significant difference when multiplied by an entire raids worth of DPS), and random denizens of the internets typically butting in when they don't have a clue what they're talking about.

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Is that Blizzard's internal notation sneaking into a tooltip? I thought all calculations were done two decimal places up.

It's almost definitely 10%; anything else would be too high or too low when spread among an entire raid (though I'd argue that 10% *12-15 DPS is quite high as well).

The concept is pretty simple: Use runes for whatever boss you want to kill quickly that week. The question comes from whether:

A) they drop from the boss as a farm mechanic, or
B) they can be crafted as a progression mechanic.
(see note below*)

Either way, I don't like it.

• I don't like having an extra-arbitrary DPS consumable, even if it's only 1/week.
• I don't like what it does to 2nd/3rd/etc guild progression on the same server (see note below).
• I don't like them being crafted, as it means you cherrypick which boss to progress on each week; guaranteed to cause problems.
• I don't like legendary ring style bullshit trivializing fights. I don't care if it's meant to only be used on farm, it's stupid. All it does is undermine their own fight design and encourage ridiculous gameplay to make a joke out of their own bosses. You'd think that'd be the last thing Blizzard would want to encourage.

*Note: To clarify on the method of obtaining them, the issue of the pattern dropping from bosses is that it would imply you have to kill the boss to get the pattern to make future farm of that boss easier, which makes a certain amount of sense... but only if you're the first guild on the server killing the boss. If you're on a server with a higher ranked guild, they can kill the boss before you, and then give you access to the runes. This will quickly become an expensive economical sink that only benefits guilds killing the boss, and create arbitrary progression for the lesser guilds.

Is it a problem? Not necessarily, no. In some ways it can be good, in that it allows lesser progressed guilds to get a leg up due to the indirect actions of other players; however that doesn't mean that I like it. I think the benefit to the guild that kills it first is too high, and it will create unnecessary contention between "killed it first, no rune kill, etc", as we've seen time and again with players placing arbitrary value on "pre-nerf" kills. It's a problematic solution to a relatively simple problem.

[Toppy]

They're meant to be customizable catchup/progression mechanics, though nobody knows for sure yet how it'll work. Originally they were supposed to be crafted by Inscriptionists, but the patterns started dropping from bosses a couple weeks ago. I made a tweet about it,

https://twitter.com/Archimtiros/stat...96200953843712

Which summarily blew up due to Celestalons typical non-answer (obviously 1,000% isn't intended, but even 10% makes a significant difference when multiplied by an entire raids worth of DPS), and random denizens of the internets typically butting in when they don't have a clue what they're talking about.

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It's almost definitely 10%; anything else would be too high or too low when spread among an entire raid (though I'd argue that 10% *12-15 DPS is quite high as well).

The concept is pretty simple: Use runes for whatever boss you want to kill quickly that week. The question comes from whether:

A) they drop from the boss as a farm mechanic, or
B) they can be crafted as a progression mechanic.
(see note below*)

Either way, I don't like it.

• I don't like having an extra-arbitrary DPS consumable, even if it's only 1/week.
• I don't like what it does to 2nd/3rd/etc guild progression on the same server (see note below).
• I don't like them being crafted, as it means you cherrypick which boss to progress on each week; guaranteed to cause problems.
• I don't like legendary ring style bullshit trivializing fights. I don't care if it's meant to only be used on farm, it's stupid. All it does is undermine their own fight design and encourage ridiculous gameplay to make a joke out of their own bosses. You'd think that'd be the last thing Blizzard would want to encourage.

*Note: To clarify on the method of obtaining them, the issue of the pattern dropping from bosses is that it would imply you have to kill the boss to get the pattern to make future farm of that boss easier, which makes a certain amount of sense... but only if you're the first guild on the server killing the boss. If you're on a server with a higher ranked guild, they can kill the boss before you, and then give you access to the runes. This will quickly become an expensive economical sink that only benefits guilds killing the boss, and create arbitrary progression for the lesser guilds.

Is it a problem? Not necessarily, no. In some ways it can be good, in that it allows lesser progressed guilds to get a leg up due to the indirect actions of other players; however that doesn't mean that I like it. I think the benefit to the guild that kills it first is too high, and it will create unnecessary contention between "killed it first, no rune kill, etc", as we've seen time and again with players placing arbitrary value on "pre-nerf" kills. It's a problematic solution to a relatively simple problem.

Yeah. There's already a mechanic for progressing on a boss and farming it faster. Its called getting gear. This is just silly and will cause pugging issues more than anything.

[Beardyface]

It's a problematic solution to a relatively simple problem.

Isn't this their design philosophy? Pretty sure they changed it from "Easy to learn, hard to master."

[caervek]

1. Slam outside of CS is the most optimal button to press, you don't press MS because doing more damage with MS is not worth the cost of rage + loss of CS reset % chance.

Blizz said we should be able to spec/build for 100% CS uptime in Legion, does that cripple DPS or something?

[Warriorsarri]

Another note regarding the Runes. Everyone in the raid gets one each, but what they get is a recipe for an inscribe to learn, and then to craft it. So in essence if a 30man raid kills it, one person can learn it for themselves and the guild, while the rest sell theirs on the AH for quite a decent sum of money. All this feels like is another way for the server first guilds to make some money during progression, as they'll sell the buffs to the lower guilds.

[mysticx]

Blizz said we should be able to spec/build for 100% CS uptime in Legion, does that cripple DPS or something?

There's a talent that doubles CS duration at the cost of 50% of its effect ("Titanic might", IIRC), which doesn't help much for soloing, 5-mans, PvP, bosses with adds... well, anything that isn't a Patchwerk-fight, really... ~_~

[Kirbydude65]

There's a talent that doubles CS duration at the cost of 50% of its effect ("Titanic might", IIRC), which doesn't help much for soloing, 5-mans, PvP, bosses with adds... well, anything that isn't a Patchwerk-fight, really... ~_~

It actually looks pretty ok for Cleave fights.

[Exotath]

For those curious about Bajheera's thoughts on Arms PvP in Legion.... watch the first 2 minutes of this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JNZ8p2cm1s

[Artunias]

For those curious about Bajheera's thoughts on Arms PvP in Legion.... watch the first 2 minutes of this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JNZ8p2cm1s

Yeah if you thought Arms solo viability in WoD was bad for PvP. You ain't seen nothing yet. Even with a healer it seems questionable lol.

[Exotath]

Yeah if you thought Arms solo viability in WoD was bad for PvP. You ain't seen nothing yet. Even with a healer it seems questionable lol.

Yea it looks like a joke. The new second wind isn't going to cut it and the changes to D stance don't help either. Even if you sit in D stance you are screwed.

[Maltore]

...

• I don't like legendary ring style bullshit trivializing fights. I don't care if it's meant to only be used on farm, it's stupid. All it does is undermine their own fight design and encourage ridiculous gameplay to make a joke out of their own bosses. You'd think that'd be the last thing Blizzard would want to encourage.

...

I think these scribe crafted runes are a neat idea, but I think your point here is the biggest argument against it. Furthermore, the game does not need more tools that help you progress through the content faster. People blow through the content fast enough already... the last thing Blizzard should want is for people to progress even faster.

[Artunias]

I think these scribe crafted runes are a neat idea, but I think your point here is the biggest argument against it. Furthermore, the game does not need more tools that help you progress through the content faster. People blow through the content fast enough already... the last thing Blizzard should want is for people to progress even faster.

Hm, I agree and disagree. I mean I have a friend of mine who is in a very late night raiding guild and they only raid 2 days a week. They are working on Mythic Mannoroth right now. They progressed through heroic and have been working on Mythic since day 1 basically. Certainly some people blow through content, but there is a small set of guilds that will always strive to progress no matter how long it's been.

But I'm not a supporter of this rune idea.

[Toppy]

Yeah, the changes are making PvE bad, but PvP all the worse.

[satimy]

Still haven't seen a fuckin peep about warriors. Anyone wanna road trip to blizzard hq and get some answers

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Yeah, the changes are making PvE bad, but PvP all the worse.

Pvp can't possibly get worse than this expansion.

[Artunias]

Pvp can't possibly get worse than this expansion.

Arms solo viability is definitely worse in PvP. You have less heals and defensive abilities than you had in WoD.

Also, while arms was frustrating as shit solo it's very strong with a healer in WoD.

[Bigbazz]

Just for clarification, Titanic Might actually triples (200% increase) the CS duration from 8 to 24 seconds.

[Toppy]

Still haven't seen a fuckin peep about warriors. Anyone wanna road trip to blizzard hq and get some answers

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Pvp can't possibly get worse than this expansion.

I suppose you havent been paying much attention to the state of PvP in legion have you? Its quiet noticeably atrocious. All these design decisions they keep making for PvE are being done with no thought to PvP (like healers being able to DPS, or the massive removal of utility). And the PvP devs arent using the PvP talents to balance things out at all, largely because they cant with both the talents being choose-able (we need required effects to balance around) and being unlockable.

I still think it funny that there is so far turning out to be a bigger gear gap between casual and hardcore PvPers in Legion than WoD at that due to the difference between normal gear and mythic having an effect in PvP again.