Why is the betterment of humanity seen as a bad thing?

[Deleted]

That's exactly what I said though - you can have an advantage due to privilege and also earn success through hard work. It's not either or. But the basketball example is a pretty poor one because the advantage tall people have over short people in basketball is fairly immutable. The advantage that a man has over a woman in getting a promotion for example, is not immutable. It's socially constructed.

But the whole shtick of posters like Xarim is that they pretend that socially constructed prejudices are part of the natural order and there is nothing to be done about them.

There is nothing right now preventing women from being promoted over men, or minorities (like me) being more successful than whites; there is no "conspiracy" to keep the non-illuminati down, that is nonsense

Right now, differences are really down to how hard you work and how smart you are

There's nothing wrong with redistributing some income for basic necessities for everyone, that's just human rights; but total equality of outcome is simply unfair

Some people are just flat out dumb; 50% of people are below average intelligence - they will never be able to do the intellectual jobs that pay the most, it doesn't matter how much equality of opportunity you push towards them, nature itself is unfair, but that doesn't mean they should have zero, or that they shouldn't be able to work hard and achieve the best they can

I'm not tall enough to play basketball for the NBA even though I would love some of that Michael Jordan money and party lifestyle

Nonetheless, I don't cry about it and try to get on the squad anyway for "fairness"

Instead I focus on what I'm good at, and I work hard and make the best of myself without whining and greedily asking for more than my fair share

That's all any of us can really do

[Machismo]

Then calling food halal is unnecessary.

Hint: It is necessary by virtue of being recognized by the rest of the world. Even though non-halal food is safe, it encroaches on consumer rights when they need to know whether what they eat conflicts with what they believe in. Just like GMO food.



They are over here. It's part of the ingredients label, or a disclaimer in some part of the packaging. And rightfully so.



There's only one religion that demands anything remotely of that sort. And it is still in effect in pretty much the whole world today. If you can get the world to agree with you like they did with halal/non-halal, by all means.



No, you are just strawmanning everyone who has repeatedly stated it has nothing to do with it being safe or not, by insulting and encroaching on their freedom and right to knowledge.

You want it to be fearmongering, because otherwise you have absolutely no ground to stand on this issue.

Everything you mention can be done voluntarily. If someone wants to make something halal, good for them. People who want halal can simply look for those brands. The same goes got people who don't want GMO. They look for companies that advertise as GMO-free. Freedom wins. Forcing arbitrary labeling is a restriction of freedom. It doesn't matter if it's GMO or whether a gay person ever touched it.

[Deleted]

See this is where you go ohhh so wrong - I wasn't born privileged in a 1st world country etc, like a lot of successful people I earned what I have

Now I'm not saying we have perfect equality of opportunity, we don't yet -- and I personally had to work extra hard to overcome natural disadvantages; but I and many millions of others are proof that it can be done

If you fail to do it for whatever reason, that's fine, take your knocks and move on; but don't judge those who worked their asses off and earned their way

The world is more fair now than it has ever been in the history of human life; blaming society isn't as easy as when there were feudal lords and serfs and no social mobility

Go learn a trade, work your ass off and be successful; there are fewer obstacles to your success than ever before

You can be Bill Gates in the modern world; you don't have to be a king, you don't have to be white/male/etc, no one cares, you just have to make something great that everyone wants/needs

So others should not judge you for being lucky? Is that what you are trying to say here?

Because you simply can not become rich/successful without being lucky, this is a simple fact of life. Sure most people worked hard for their successes, but for every one person to succeed there are about thousand who did not. A thousand people who worked just as hard, made just as many sacrifices and did exactly the same as that rich guy, but just didn't had the luck the other guy had.

Yes, hard work may give you a decent living, but it may also not. Hard work isn't bad, but it isn't a "sure thing" by any means.

It doesn't matter if you learned a trade (when you are capable of doing so), and it doesn't matter if there are fewer obstacles then ever before when it all comes down to luck. You have to be lucky to have the right product at the right time, you have to be lucky to know just the right people, you need luck to be at the right place at the right time. You can try to push you luck and net work your ass off, but if you just not come around the right people for you then it won't do anything for you.

[Krigaren]

Congratulations for missing the real point

there are thousands of things that make it easier or harder for each human in life

its nobody's fault and its not unfair
its just another part of life
its part of being human

wasting time talking about privilege or luck is pointless (it helps nobody)

Actually, I understood the point just fine. The point that you're not understanding is that while there are advantages and disadvantages that people have in this life which benefit them greatly over others, they aren't set in stone.

The point is that those advantages and disadvantages can usually only be overcome when the system allows it. Human society and people like you are determined to ensure the system is rigged enough that will always be people with disadvantages in life, be it physical or economic. People just have to accept "the natural order". I mean, it's all part of being human, right? There's no point in building access ramps for handicap people, or developing a telephone system for deaf people, or providing college grants to underprivileged children.

Wasting time talking about it doesn't help anybody, right? Except it does, just not necessarily you. That's the point you're trying to make.

[Deleted]

There is nothing right now preventing women from being promoted over men, or minorities (like me) being more successful than whites; there is no "conspiracy" to keep the non-illuminati down, that is nonsense

Right now, differences are really down to how hard you work and how smart you are

There's nothing wrong with redistributing some income for basic necessities for everyone, that's just human rights; but total equality of outcome is simply unfair

Some people are just flat out dumb; 50% of people are below average intelligence - they will never be able to do the intellectual jobs that pay the most, it doesn't matter how much equality of opportunity you push towards them, nature itself is unfair, but that doesn't mean they should have zero, or that they shouldn't be able to work hard and achieve the best they can

I'm not tall enough to play basketball for the NBA even though I would love some of that Michael Jordan money and party lifestyle

Nonetheless, I don't cry about it and try to get on the squad anyway for "fairness"

Instead I focus on what I'm good at, and I work hard and make the best of myself without whining and greedily asking for more than my fair share

That's all any of us can really do

You're creating a strawman Xarim. No one is claiming that there's a conspiracy. That there's some anti-woman, anti-minority illuminati which has secret meetings to keep the less fortunate people of the world down. What people are claiming is that everyone has unconscious prejudices which cause them to look at people from different backgrounds differently. That results in discrimination, whether it's overt or covert.

For you to claim that there are no obstacles that women and minorities face in the path to success...it just boggles the mind how anyone can look at the world and think that everything is equal. And it's not just fairly trivial obstacles like "how likely is it that I get a raise?" it's stuff like "how likely is it that I get murdered?" Only either a very stupid, a very self-centred, or very willfully ignorant person can think that there is equality of opportunity in the world today.

[Deleted]

So others should not judge you for being lucky? Is that what you are trying to say here?

Because you simply can not become rich/successful without being lucky, this is a simple fact of life. Sure most people worked hard for their successes, but for every one person to succeed there are about thousand who did not. A thousand people who worked just as hard, made just as many sacrifices and did exactly the same as that rich guy, but just didn't had the luck the other guy had.

Yes, hard work may give you a decent living, but it may also not. Hard work isn't bad, but it isn't a "sure thing" by any means.

It doesn't matter if you learned a trade (when you are capable of doing so), and it doesn't matter if there are fewer obstacles then ever before when it all comes down to luck. You have to be lucky to have the right product at the right time, you have to be lucky to know just the right people, you need luck to be at the right place at the right time. You can try to push you luck and net work your ass off, but if you just not come around the right people for you then it won't do anything for you.

There's definitely always some luck involved and the world isn't perfect, but working hard will always net you a better outcome and there are no systemic racist/sexist obstacles in the way these days, not in the west

I don't mean slaving away for a corporation in some meaningless middle management job and getting downsized: that happens a lot because everyone expects that sitting at a computer in an office shuffling emails will get you a job for life, it won't, most of those jobs will be gone in 10 years

I think we will have basic income globally soon because of robots and mechanisation, so being a plumber is safer than being an accountant right now, but there's still plenty of room for invention and intellectual work

There will still (for now) be jobs that add value: the key is to do those, and to make the extra effort and not conform mindlessly to the TV-consumerist idea of buying a Starbucks on the way to an easy 9-to-5 and expecting success that way

[Vyxn]

Bro, you seriously need to stop trotting out that same, tired, ridiculous example. It's been explained to you. Direct redistribution like that doesn't work and doesn't happen precisely because it doesn't work.

that is exactly how it happens when you tax someone then distribute that tax money to those that didn't earn it

[Deleted]

Short answer is we all starve to death.

[Vyxn]

I always find it interesting one side wants -more- rich people while the other side wants -less- rich people.

Hmm........

how does one being rich cause another to be poor?

only the ignorant the ones that believe wealth is finite so one having more cause another to have less believe that

[BuckSparkles]

how does one being rich cause another to be poor?

only the ignorant the ones that believe wealth is finite so one having more cause another to have less believe that

They simply are idealistic and live in their own bubbles.

[Vyxn]

Actually, I understood the point just fine. The point that you're not understanding is that while there are advantages and disadvantages that people have in this life which benefit them greatly over others, they aren't set in stone.

The point is that those advantages and disadvantages can usually only be overcome when the system allows it. Human society and people like you are determined to ensure the system is rigged enough that will always be people with disadvantages in life, be it physical or economic. People just have to accept "the natural order". I mean, it's all part of being human, right? There's no point in building access ramps for handicap people, or developing a telephone system for deaf people, or providing college grants to underprivileged children.

Wasting time talking about it doesn't help anybody, right? Except it does, just not necessarily you. That's the point you're trying to make.

if there is money to be made for a business to install access ramps so the ones that need to use them to enter the store there for attracting those customers. a business will do so

is there any reason why a business that never had and never will have disabled customers be forced to install access ramps for them?

[Jotaux]

Because everyone thinks they are just temporarily embarrassed millionaires. They need to make sure the rich are well looked after for when they make their fortune.

[Krigaren]

i have epilepsy so i can't be a pilot

do you think its rigged that i can't ever be a pilot... the system is against me because i have epilepsy

It is rigged against you, but it's in the public interest to not allow you to be a pilot. It's not in the public interest to prevent you from finding a job, or to prevent you from accessing government assistance for food or shelter if you need it based on your condition.

the way you see the world is broken

you have to fucking accept disadvantages in life
that is fucking life

Some disadvantages you have to accept, others you do not. Disadvantages that place yourself or others in danger is one of them. Disadvantages that prevent you from accessing the same benefits that all people have access to is not.

I have bad eyes. I'm a general aviation pilot, but I'll never be a USAF fighter pilot like I always wanted. I've accepted my disadvantage, but that disadvantage didn't cause me to live in poverty. Didn't prevent me from getting an education. Doesn't keep me from putting food on the table.

Someone has a broken viewpoint here, that's for sure.

the "system" is in place to help and protect people

The "system" isn't helping people when it's rigged against them. You need to disengage your righteousness from examples of wants, and focus on needs. No one needs to be a pilot. No one needs to play basketball.

Everyone needs an education. Everyone needs food. Everyone needs a job that pays for their, well, needs. Everyone needs justice.

stop wasting peoples time stop acting like there is this imaginary system holding people down

Stop wasting people's time pretending that there's not.

sorry for the offensive language but it i guess he "triggered" me by trying to say there is some imaginary "system" out to get me because im not on equal ground with a "normal" person

It sounds like you have a lot of pent up rage about your situation. It's a terrible one, to be sure, and I don't begrudge you your disadvantages. But the difference between me and you is that I would prefer a world that helps you achieve most if not all of what you want, while you're perfectly content to accept your position in life, wallow in it, and strike out at others because you need to be angry at someone or something. I feel sorry for you, I really do.

[Selastan]

Then calling food halal is unnecessary.

Hint: It is necessary by virtue of being recognized by the rest of the world. Even though non-halal food is safe, it encroaches on consumer rights when they need to know whether what they eat conflicts with what they believe in. Just like GMO food.

So...can we get a sticker on non GMO food that says: WARNING: NOT GENETICALLY MODIFIED. EAT AT RISK!?

[Krigaren]

is there any reason why a business that never had and never will have disabled customers be forced to install access ramps for them?

Generally, no. Which is why you don't see every single business with a handicap access ramp. But ones that do have handicap employees or customers, a ramp would be expected.

- - - Updated - - -

that is exactly how it happens when you tax someone then distribute that tax money to those that didn't earn it

No, that's not exactly how it happens. Because direct redistribution like that is not happening.

The government isn't taxing rich people and then cutting checks to poor people. This isn't Robin Hood. Where do you even get this idea?

[petej0]

Generally, no. Which is why you don't see every single business with a handicap access ramp. But ones that do have handicap employees or customers, a ramp would be expected.

Actually,all businesses, churches and schools must be in some sort of ADA compliance.

[Deleted]

There's definitely always some luck involved and the world isn't perfect, but working hard will always net you a better outcome and there are no systemic racist/sexist obstacles in the way these days, not in the west

I don't mean slaving away for a corporation in some meaningless middle management job and getting downsized: that happens a lot because everyone expects that sitting at a computer in an office shuffling emails will get you a job for life, it won't, most of those jobs will be gone in 10 years

I think we will have basic income globally soon because of robots and mechanisation, so being a plumber is safer than being an accountant right now, but there's still plenty of room for invention and intellectual work

There will still (for now) be jobs that add value: the key is to do those, and to make the extra effort and not conform mindlessly to the TV-consumerist idea of buying a Starbucks on the way to an easy 9-to-5 and expecting success that way

But why are these people "deserving" of everything they get if the only difference between "making it" or not is having luck? What makes them more deserving of their success then other people who worked hard at it but just didn't make it?

I do not think it is about equality of outcome, but rather a standard quality of life that is guaranteed. I do not think that anyone is arguing for every school teacher to make as much money as the president, but when it comes to things as health care, they should be equal. Poor people should not have to choose what finger they want have reattached and what finger they are going to lose because the insurance doesn't cover reattachment of more then one finger.

I hope there will be something like a basic income globally, but im not seeing it happening any time soon. There are still to many voices going against a basic income because they simply do not understand the concept. Only when a few small countries have made this step and boomed because of it will other follow. But that is a whole other discussion :<

Yes, there are still jobs that need to be filled, and you can still make a good buck if you have the right training. But this won't hold for ever, we will be lucky if it holds up another 2 decades. More and more people are unable to find a job, and it is more then just financial damage that this causes. But all these people trying to make ends meat isn't very healthy for society either. People become isolated and depressed for feeling that they can't take part in society, this breeds all sorts of ugly human behavior. From stealing to suicide and everything in between.

[Stormdash]

I have my own mental issues that might give me a little different insight into peoples actions... but is actual equality and making sure that everyone is cared for really such a terrible thing? It blows my mind that human greed is so deeply ingrained that we would rather watch people starve than ask a billionaire to give their workers higher pay or even just to spend their money at all on improving quality of life.

I understand wanting people to try to help themselves a little, but it seems a common theme that we don't even want them to have the option of asking for help.

The bad thing is the hubris of those who've decided they get to decide who "should" have how much of what and would have their self-appointed expertise imposed by force if they could. Believe it or not "the betterment of humanity" is not everyone's priority, nor is it universally agreed upon in meaning by those to whom it is a priority.

[Masark]

how does one being rich cause another to be poor?

only the ignorant the ones that believe wealth is finite so one having more cause another to have less believe that

How does the total wealth increasing matter when that new wealth is distributed in a manner weighted overwhelmingly towards the existing distribution?

What society would you live in? One where people are cared for and treated with respect and dignity, or one where the people who are handed a losing card in life are stomped in the mud?

A lot of people here seem to choose the latter, as they believe they'll be handed a winning card.

[Annoying]

if you are 5 foot tall you're never going to be a professional basketball player

While I agree with the meat of your post (hint, I can't be a pilot for other reasons either, and I actually wanted to be one), do note that Muggsy Bogues was 5'3", heh.