Why is the betterment of humanity seen as a bad thing?

[Vyxn]

How does the total wealth increasing matter when that new wealth is distributed in a manner weighted overwhelmingly towards the existing distribution?



A lot of people here seem to choose the latter, as they believe they'll be handed a winning card.

because wealth creation isn't limited to the rich

[Masark]

because wealth creation isn't limited to the rich

Technically, it isn't, but practically, it is.

[kail]

On the topic of wealth, pure equality there would be rather boring with stagnation in ideas. There will always be a pyramid design on wealth, as it should be.

What I never understand is the whole "us vs them" thought process. I find that it stems from blind loyalty.

[frogger237]

There is nothing quite so unfair and contrary to natural justice as forcing equality of outcome by taking away from the deserving to give to the undeserving

But who are the deserving and undeserving? Is the scientist who gets screwed over by his company undeserving? Is a company that goes out of business because it follows the law while its competition illegally dumps and ignores safety concerns undeserving?

[Vyxn]

Technically, it isn't, but practically, it is.

I will admit already having wealth makes it easier to create more but it isn't impossible for those lacking wealth to create it
and anyways who said creating wealth is easy if it was everyone would be wealthy

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On the topic of wealth, pure equality there would be rather boring with stagnation in ideas. There will always be a pyramid design on wealth, as it should be.

What I never understand is the whole "us vs them" thought process. I find that it stems from blind loyalty.

the us against them comes from the Politian's that want to create class warfare all for political gain. hello Bernie Sanders

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No, that's not exactly how it happens. Because direct redistribution like that is not happening.

The government isn't taxing rich people and then cutting checks to poor people. This isn't Robin Hood. Where do you even get this idea?

what rock have you been living under? what is the hell do you call welfare, food stamps, Obama care, and the dozen or so more welfare programs do? they do exactly that they tax those that have and give it to those that haven't earned it

[Masark]

I will admit already having wealth makes it easier to create more but it isn't impossible for those lacking wealth to create it
and anyways who said creating wealth is easy if it was everyone would be wealthy

1. Impossible, no, improbable, yes.

2. Creating wealth is extremely easy, if you already have some. Hence the problem, where the capital-holding people can do nothing useful, yet are able to collect more and more wealth at an ever increasing rate like a stellar body collecting mass.

[RickJamesLich]

Is OP one of those Bernie Bros who essentially thinks "anyone that doesn't vote Bernie hates humanity"? lol

[Adam Jensen]

Is OP one of those Bernie Bros who essentially thinks "anyone that doesn't vote Bernie hates humanity"? lol

Well it's not like the Republicans have any appearance of desiring to help the poor.

[RickJamesLich]

Well it's not like the Republicans have any appearance of desiring to help the poor.

Republicans believe that not impeding on capitalism is what creates jobs, and that jobs are ultimately what helps the poor more than anything else. Of course there has to be checks and balances, but the democrats often set up a system where people become dependent on it, and a dependency on the government is counter intuitive to freedom. Instead of having people wait for the first of the month for food stamps, for example, create jobs, so that these people don't have to beg, but rather have the opportunity to earn. Not saying it's all roses either, there's no perfect system, but I don't think the republicans just "hate poor people".

[unfilteredJW]

What if someone starts doing better than me? My self worth is only dictated by how much better I am doing than others.

[Cthulhu 2020]

So you are saying I am wrong about humans?

Funny, why do we have nations, and those with and those without spanning across the world?

Why don't we have just one big happy family?

Oh yeah, human nature.

Get mad at me all you want. Won't change the fact that humans simply are not fully interested in what the OP described.

The existence of developed nations is the very result of human cooperation and ensuring those without are taken care of.

If your ideas of human nature were true, we'd still be living in caves fighting each other over scraps of meat.

[Deleted]

But who are the deserving and undeserving? Is the scientist who gets screwed over by his company undeserving? Is a company that goes out of business because it follows the law while its competition illegally dumps and ignores safety concerns undeserving?

Right now, in our world, market forces decide who is deserving and who isn't

It's definitely not perfect, but it's very hard to find an alternative

At least this way, if people really like mobile phones, or computers, or diet coke, or lower interest rate mortgages, or cars that pollute less, as long as the market can produce those efficiently, then those products will be successful

I'm not saying there aren't abuses, there definitely are; I'm also not saying certain industries and CEOs aren't parasitic, they definitely are

But the alternative is a command economy where bureaucrats decide outcomes for everyone, and usually get things horribly wrong

Think of how ineffectual and downright incompetent your local government council is; imagine them running Amazon or trying to invent autonomous driving vehicles

[Krigaren]

what rock have you been living under? what is the hell do you call welfare, food stamps, Obama care, and the dozen or so more welfare programs do? they do exactly that they tax those that have and give it to those that haven't earned it

lol, wow. Okay. Did you get a public education? Are you driving on roads? Do you drink clean water? Do you enjoy the wonders of the electrical grid, enjoy clean air, and live safe in the knowledge that the police and fire departments are there when you need them?

They're called social programs. They are paid for by everyone and exist for the betterment of us all. ALL of us, not just special snowflakes like you.

You're also making the incredibly incorrect assumption that people who use welfare programs haven't or aren't currently paying taxes. They very much are. These people also shouldn't need to earn the right to eat, or the right to go see a doctor, or the right to sleep in a bed or have a refrigerator. Seriously, what kind of monster are you?

[BuckSparkles]

The existence of developed nations is the very result of human cooperation and ensuring those without are taken care of.

If your ideas of human nature were true, we'd still be living in caves fighting each other over scraps of meat.

We still do that. But we fight over scraps as nations, rather than individuals.

[Super Friendly Kitty Cat]

I have my own mental issues that might give me a little different insight into peoples actions... but is actual equality and making sure that everyone is cared for really such a terrible thing? It blows my mind that human greed is so deeply ingrained that we would rather watch people starve than ask a billionaire to give their workers higher pay or even just to spend their money at all on improving quality of life.

I understand wanting people to try to help themselves a little, but it seems a common theme that we don't even want them to have the option of asking for help.

Human greed is what has propelled human ingenuity and entrepreneurship which has lead to more people eventually living a better life than trying to make sure everyone is equal.

[Macaquerie]

Human greed is what has propelled human ingenuity and entrepreneurship which has lead to more people eventually living a better life than trying to make sure everyone is equal.

Greed has been around since the dawn of civilization, and yet human society basically remained static the whole time until people figured out that allowing the masses to participate in the consumer economy raises living standards for everyone. There are plenty of greedy bastards in Somalia, where's all the ingenuity and entrepreneurship coming out of there?

[Krigaren]

But the alternative is a command economy where bureaucrats decide outcomes for everyone, and usually get things horribly wrong

That's actually not the alternative. It's not "Pure Free Market" or "Pure Command Economy." There is a middle ground mixed economy, and it's where we live right now.

The problem is that the current GOP wants to tend toward a pure free market economy, because the party is largely represented by corporate interests. Less regulations and less restrictions on business is great for their bottom line, as is the ability to get rid of unions, the ACA, payroll taxes, the IRS, etc. However, doing all of those things would be disastrous for society and for the environment, and would only benefit the wealthy.

Also, democrats are also guilty of being represented by corporate interests. That's what's giving us $hillery. The key difference in the parties, however, is that democrats recognize that pure, unbridled capitalism is extremely toxic and that taxes and regulations are necessary to maintain infrastructure and social programs (which help reduce crime, medical costs, etc).

So no, the choice isn't one extreme or the other. The choice is one extreme offered by the GOP, and a more centrist middle ground offered - at least prima facie - by the Democrats.

Think of how ineffectual and downright incompetent your local government council is; imagine them running Amazon or trying to invent autonomous driving vehicles

That's what happens when your government is run by people who win by popularity contest. It's also the legacy of a federal government that hog-ties governmental agencies by cutting budgets, placing ridiculous restrictions on them, or making programs ineffectual from the outset. Just like with the ACA. The GOP loves to complain about all the terrible things the ACA doesn't do or does poorly, which are things they themselves caused to happen in the first place. You can't build a boat, drill holes in the hull, and complain that it doesn't float worth a damn.

[xuros]

When it comes at the FORCED expense of others its a bad thing.

[Deleted]

That's actually not the alternative. It's not "Pure Free Market" or "Pure Command Economy." There is a middle ground mixed economy, and it's where we live right now.

The problem is that the current GOP wants to tend toward a pure free market economy, because the party is largely represented by corporate interests. Less regulations and less restrictions on business is great for their bottom line, as is the ability to get rid of unions, as it the ability to get rid of the ACA, payroll taxes, the IRS, etc. However, doing all of those things would be disastrous for society and for the environment, and would only benefit the wealthy.

Also, democrats are also guilty of being represented by corporate interests. That's what's giving us $hillery. The key difference in the parties, however, is that democrats recognize that pure, unbridled capitalism is extremely toxic and that taxes and regulations are necessary to maintain infrastructure and social programs (which help reduce crime, medical costs, etc).

So no, the choice isn't one extreme or the other. The choice is one extreme offered by the GOP, and a more centrist middle ground offered - at least prima facie - by the Democrats.

Sadly this isn't true; in American politics, both sides offer the exact same economics (a very heavily corporatised form of capitalism that borders on multinational oligopoly), there is really no difference at all - the Fed and Wall Street are mostly Democrats these days

The differences are on their treatments of very specific political/social things like abortion, gay marriage, religion, defense, etc

This is why American politics doesn't interest me much: there is really no choice at all, it's all about money

[Super Friendly Kitty Cat]

Greed has been around since the dawn of civilization, and yet human society basically remained static the whole time until people figured out that allowing the masses to participate in the consumer economy raises living standards for everyone. There are plenty of greedy bastards in Somalia, where's all the ingenuity and entrepreneurship coming out of there?

Somalia.

lol

Does Somalia have a capitalist, democratically elected Republic?

The strongest and most powerful societies in history, those rich with human endeavor were pretty much greed based.

But, but, but Somalia.

lol