Preach Ranks Legion Tanks. (Tanking in Legion is Bad?)

[Borigrad]

How does it make the game easier to balance? Only 2 people are getting hit by tank mechanics. Punishing mistakes are how people get better. If you didn't die when you were bad, what is your motivation for getting better? What is "good use of active mitigation"? How can you tell if everything is smooth? What reward are you actually giving? There are already tank healers, they're called beacon Paladins and Disc priest, sounds like a healer problem. You keep mentioning positioning, but this isn't Dance Dance Revolution, there is nothing difficult about positioning. Again, how is that more rewarding than keeping yourself alive? What is "rewarding" about it?

You don't actually have an "arguement".

It makes it easier to balance because tanks aren't being obliterated to compensate their insane survivability, damage can become less spiky and it also allows certain DPS classes to off tank briefly to compensate tanks needing to wait out their CD's, like they did back in TBC and WotLK, where if a tanks major cooldown was on CD and the off-tank was busy, plate dps could throw on a shield and one hander and pop their mitigation to help, rewarding coordination and proper use of cooldowns, that simply isn't possible today cause of how hard bosses hit, again tanks being near-invincible has hurt the over all health of the game and cut into the fun of other roles.

Also calling Beacon Paladin's tank healers, makes me wonder if you raided in a progression guild at all before MoP, I suspect the answer is no. But then you follow up with a claim like "there is nothing difficult about positioning." Really makes me realize you might not of tanked anything before WoD, there used to be a lot of mechanics that requires perfect dropping by tanks and small precise movements, where the slightest mistake could instantly wipe the raid.

You're rewarded by actually doing your job, which is manipulating the mobs and positioning the boss and mitigating damage.

[Dezminion]

Prolly the goal here is the same as with dps classes, make everything so easy, that even my (passed away) grand mother could pick any class/role and play with reasonable level.

I am personaly a fan of this lets make everything simple, so we can lure new players to the game thing.

Up until now I have always been waiting for a new xpac, now ai have not even pre ordered Leggy

[Raiju]

That'd be fine. What's absolutely bizarre is people constantly rambling about "they're stripping away active mitigation" when every tank in Legion has to constantly manage resources/CDs and properly time button presses just to keep up their defensive buffs.

It was like when people were coming on here during WoD's alpha and saying -well literally the same things, stuff like "My hunter only has three buttons period that's it oh god" and then others who knew their shit would link a picture of their 14-20 button action bars followed by "Oh god my hunter only has five buttons period" right after. Right. After. Same. Page and everything.

Except you clearly haven't played tanks on alpha or you'd realize the AM is largely automatic and not something you control. you just do your rotation and it happens - most of it you have little control over when as it will just be up as much as possible.

@Borigrad I tanked before mop and have no idea what you're on about. Yes beacon was put on the tanks to heal them while you healed the raid. That was the reason paladins were so good at tank healing from it's inception. (and if there was both tanks taking damage, even better!)

[Evolved]

It makes it easier to balance because tanks aren't being obliterated to compensate their insane survivability, damage can become less spiky and it also allows certain DPS classes to off tank briefly to compensate tanks needing to wait out their CD's, like they did back in TBC and WotLK, where if a tanks major cooldown was on CD and the off-tank was busy, plate dps could throw on a shield and one hander and pop their mitigation to help, rewarding coordination and proper use of cooldowns, that simply isn't possible today cause of how hard bosses hit, again tanks being near-invincible has hurt the over all health of the game and cut into the fun of other roles.

Also calling Beacon Paladin's tank healers, makes me wonder if you raided in a progression guild at all before MoP, I suspect the answer is no. But then you follow up with a claim like "there is nothing difficult about positioning." Really makes me realize you might not of tanked anything before WoD, there used to be a lot of mechanics that requires perfect dropping by tanks and small precise movements, where the slightest mistake could instantly wipe the raid.

You're rewarded by actually doing your job, which is manipulating the mobs and positioning the boss and mitigating damage.

You can't complain about subjective opinions, and then use them as an argument for why you believe that you're right.

DPS aren't supposed to be tanking remember, it takes away from the tanks, "fun". I thought you were against taking away from the fun of other roles? Stop flip flopping. Tanks being hit hard when having the tools to compensate for them is "fun", because you get direct feedback on how well you did. Does this mean that tanks should be able to be a healer while they're not tanking? Should they be competing with DPS on meters while they're not tanking?

I did. It wasn't.

Positioning the boss isn't difficult. Mitigating damage doesn't preclude the ability to position. You haven't described an actual "reward" yet. What do I get for being less dead than the last time I didn't die?

[Neversage]

I think tanks are too self-sufficient in WoD. I can almost tank heroics without a healer because of insane self-healing. It should be toned down, but not removed. I think an amazing tank should be able to close the skill gap with a crappy healer and vice versa. If a crappy healer spells unavoidable death for a skilled tank, then it needs retuning.

[Borigrad]

@Borigrad I tanked before mop and have no idea what you're on about. Yes beacon was put on the tanks to heal them while you healed the raid. That was the reason paladins were so good at tank healing from it's inception. (and if there was both tanks taking damage, even better!)

Paladin's where tank healers until MoP because they had zero AoE healing outside of beacon, even then Beacon was incredibly weak for healing the tank, you often only put it on the off-tank and healed the main tank and that was your job.

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You can't complain about subjective opinions, and then use them as an argument for why you believe that you're right.

DPS aren't supposed to be tanking remember, it takes away from the tanks, "fun". I thought you were against taking away from the fun of other roles? Stop flip flopping. Tanks being hit hard when having the tools to compensate for them is "fun", because you get direct feedback on how well you did. Does this mean that tanks should be able to be a healer while they're not tanking? Should they be competing with DPS on meters while they're not tanking?

I did. It wasn't.

Positioning the boss isn't difficult. Mitigating damage doesn't preclude the ability to position. You haven't described an actual "reward" yet. What do I get for being less dead than the last time I didn't die?

I didn't say DPS were tanking, I said they helped with their CD's if the situation got difficult, as opposed to today where some tanks can be completely self reliant as far as healing and mitigation is concerned. It hurts the health of the game and actually reduces the skill floor as far as tanking in concerned.

Also saying the positioning the boss isn't difficult, did you actually do any content before WoD? There are a lot of make or break mechanics that rely solely on proper positioning and using the boss to create venn diagrams.

[Neversage]

Paladin's where tank healers until MoP because they had zero AoE healing outside of beacon, even then Beacon was incredibly weak for healing the tank, you often only put it on the off-tank and healed the main tank and that was your job.

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I didn't say DPS were tanking, I said they helped with their CD's if the situation got difficult, as opposed to today where some tanks can be completely self reliant as far as healing is concerned.

Also saying the positioning the boss isn't difficult, did you actually do any content before WoD? There are a lot of make or break mechanics that rely solely on proper positioning and using the boss to create venn diagrams.

Man, I miss some of that. Positioning was one of the reasons I got into tanking.

[Blur4stuff]

even with the upcoming changes I won't touch brewmaster. the reasons why have been thoroughly covered on mmoc and alpha forums. it's as if someone at blizzard asked, "how can we reduce the BRM population by 95%" and alpha BRM was the answer.

DH and war are currently the most fun

[papajohn4]

I like slow paced combat, it leaves me time check what is happening to the rest of the group.. to check environment, boss etc. So thats good for me.

[Angeredsoul]

Well I hope people enjoy sitting in queues for longer, because if tank gameplay isn't fulfilling then people won't play them.

[Neversage]

I like slow paced combat, it leaves me time check what is happening to the rest of the group.. to check environment, boss etc. So thats good for me.

I hadn't thought of that. It might make me mind spamming Swipe a little less. Hopefully we get some more passes at tanking as a whole before 7.0. If Blizzard drives people away from tanking, everyone will suffer.

[papajohn4]

Well I hope people enjoy sitting in queues for longer, because if tank gameplay isn't fulfilling then people won't play them.

I think the number one reason for long ques is that tanks/healers dont want to tank/heal on random groups, when x loldps pulls ahead and what he thinks is "cool". I always play tank, but always play with friends/guildies.

I hadn't thought of that. It might make me mind spamming Swipe a little less. Hopefully we get some more passes at tanking as a whole before 7.0. If Blizzard drives people away from tanking, everyone will suffer.

The whole combat used to be slow..as a Paladin all I had to do was to pop up my seal every 20+ sec and maybe hit a judgment or a consecration while also keep up Holy Shield... the rest of the time I was watching my group and support if needed (heal, BoP, LoH, Freedom, Stun, etc), and of course watch out for patrols, spawns.. the game used to be more "strategic" and less about a perfect rotation execution.

[Evolved]

I didn't say DPS were tanking, I said they helped with their CD's if the situation got difficult, as opposed to today where some tanks can be completely self reliant as far as healing is concerned.

Also saying the positioning the boss isn't difficult, did you actually do any content before WoD? There are a lot of make or break mechanics that rely solely on proper positioning and using the boss to create venn diagrams.

According to you, they shouldn't be able to step on tanks "fun" toes. Tanks aren't "completely self reliant" in mythic raids. If you want to make such an absurd claim, provide proof of a mythic tank being "completely self reliant" outside of speed kills.

As I said, I did. Irrelevant to your argument for current vs future, since you haven't actually given a relevant argument.

You still haven't provided any meaningful reasons for removing tank "fun" beyond your own opinion of what is fun for DPS/Heals. I need something concrete here.

[Rikhart]

Maybe they were for you. They were more punishing then say the end of wrath. The skill of the tanks and cc had a much larger impact, but I wouldn't say they were hard.

Considering the whole party had cleared naxx 40 recently, i have no idea what makes you mention skill.

The problem was they were severely overtuned, and were heavily nerfed not long after. And nigh on impossible to be "tanked by dps" which is originally what I was replying to.

[Deliverer]

Tanks being so self-reliant removed a lot of gameplay from Healers and other dps that can use their cooldowns to help mitigate spike damage on the tank, so yes it actually did take things away from other roles.

passive tank healing like disc shields pala beacon and druid hots are the issue not tank being able to provide for 50% of the healing required.. and what DPSer CD can help mitigate tank damage can you give me an example?

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Fun is subjective, argue why it's bad for the game. There's just as many people in this thread arguing why it's better for the game overall and more fun for other roles. The game isn't just about tanks. No one can argue that the direction tanking has gone, has hurt the fun of healers and certain DPS specs. Fun is subjective, just because you scream the loudest that you aren't having fun, doesn't mean you're correct. Why is a change like this bad for the game overall, other than fun.

Oh and the irony of it is, even if it's less fun personally, over all a well balanced game is more fun for everyone. Tanks being near-invincible, is bad for the game, they should be Reliant on healers, cause that's what the healers job is, What's more fun for you, is less fun for the healer, or the DPS specs that off heal, or use their CD's to help mitigate damage on tanks or the raid.

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Apparently it's not fun unless you step on the toes of both healers and dps specs at the same time.

you didn't read the thread like he said tbh.. they are lowering tank skill cap because if before you could provide a good part of your healing required if you lower the amount of self sustain you also lower the impact of a good tank on the group other than make the role more boring because as they said they want the damage less bursty.

[Raiju]

Paladin's where tank healers until MoP because they had zero AoE healing outside of beacon, even then Beacon was incredibly weak for healing the tank, you often only put it on the off-tank and healed the main tank and that was your job.

So are you a paladin in denial or what? Paladins were godly in 4.3 all around, and were the only healer who could hold their mana in 4.0.

Throughout wrath they were the undisputed gods of tank healing.

[Alvito]

Considering the whole party had cleared naxx 40 recently, i have no idea what makes you mention skill.

The problem was they were severely overtuned, and were heavily nerfed not long after. And nigh on impossible to be "tanked by dps" which is originally what I was replying to.

We could go off on tangents about naxx not being all that difficult once you zoned in and the real struggle being the grind to get 40 people there and staying focused. That has little to nothing to do with this thread though. I mentioned tanks because in BC heroic dungeons their ability more so then in many expansions since really impacted the group. The class was also a major factor, warriors could easily struggle with large groups or groups with multiple casters/hunter like mobs. Without salvation on the group pallies could struggle with single target threat, since so many avoided spell power at the beginning of BC. Again non of this has anything to do with this thread too. As you stated BC heroics were hard at the start, I disagree. That doesn't make either of us right or wrong. I might have been blessed with great group set ups or groups with my synergy. Your groups might have taken longer to adjust I don't know. I am certainly not going to go back and forth guessing or anything like that. I don't know why anybody would think they should have been able to be tanked by dps either, but again another point for another thread.

[Deliverer]

I think tanks are too self-sufficient in WoD. I can almost tank heroics without a healer because of insane self-healing. It should be toned down, but not removed. I think an amazing tank should be able to close the skill gap with a crappy healer and vice versa. If a crappy healer spells unavoidable death for a skilled tank, then it needs retuning.

It's heroic dungeons you are talking about what ilvl are you doing them with? i mean heroic dungeon in wod were never hard and damage is crap in there.. even in baleful gear you overgear them by 30 ilvls

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Because that invalidates what you claim with no way to shine and is harmfull to the overall gamedesign



no its not, even remotly not. No other role in the game is like tanking now which was riddouculus.


Like i say, i bet a lot of dps are gonna have fun too when blizzard would decide they could off tank a boss for 30 seconds and still do insane dmg.

Its still dumb design, you and other can mention the word fun all day

I mean tanks can heal only one person and that's themselves and after vengeance is gone damage is not even close to a proper dps so you can't even say tanks top dps meter. We still hit the boss with a sword, 2H weapon or even a shield so it makes sense that tanks do some decent damage.
Honestly in mop and wod I've never heard a healer complain cause they can't spam direct healing to the tank or they don't have much to heal cause tanks have some self sustain.
And how come fistweaving is different it's a healer that is dpsing but DPS isn't his main role. Tanks can do very average dps and tank, self sustain is part of your rotation/toolkit what's the problem with that.
I would really like to know what kind of difficulty a healer that complains about not having much to heal plays at, because you should maybe try get into something more challenging.

I guess we can agree that we disagree.

[Haywire5714]

Paladin's where tank healers until MoP because they had zero AoE healing outside of beacon, even then Beacon was incredibly weak for healing the tank, you often only put it on the off-tank and healed the main tank and that was your job.

You mean the holy radiance spamming paladins in dragon soul were tank healers?

[IIamaKing]

Alpha is alpha.

Yeh, but unless their stated design goal shifts, dont expect a change.