[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Taeldorian]

@Reghame I have to disagree. I've done raid testing as well as dungeon testing and despite number tuning not happening yet and regarding that fact, AOEing is extremely clunky with greater judgement being a mechanic. I can tell you that right now. I like the rotation, I like the colossus smash mechanic despite it being a straight up copy of the arms warrior mastery, but we won't get anywhere with our mastery being left the way it is now. I'm not sure when you started playing WoW, but you most definitely can't put your full faith in Blizzard to fix glaring issues, because those issues they see as "working as intended".

If you want to believe we'll be fine you sure can, I can tell you from testing that our rotation is definitely fun, but that itself is handicapped by this judgement mechanic. If they made it a buff it would work, if they used Ulthane's idea it would work, but as of now all Ret paladins will be taken just for the buffs they provide and nothing else. My testing guild on alpha has even made jokes about me providing the buffs and afking because we provide nothing more than single target and no guild needs that or requires it over classes that have good aoe/burst aoe/burst damage in general, especially for progression. I'm not saying it's doom and gloom, it's not really like that at all, but I am telling you ret is in a weird place, and being just a buff bot is actually the situation we are in right now whether you want to believe it or not.

Again, I love the rotation, it is really really fun which seems to be popular belief among the streamers that play paladin, but we have clunky mechanics like greater judgement/judgement being a debuff on one target only that handicaps that fun rotation. It's not up for debate, that is what's happening. That's not to say it couldn't be fixed, I've said this enough times but I would be leaving paladin at all, so I do want this to work out.

[Reghame]

problem with making it a buff or making it just flat effect DS is that it has already been done and it did not work overall. When you make changes to a game you dont take what was already had and then slap the same effect on something else and call it new.
As for either comparison in damage, the result is the same, our AOE would be dictated by balancing numbers but honestly, having just 1 ability dictate AOE instead of 1 ability and a buff is easier to work with so as far as balancing numbers go, its easier the way it is now than it was when we had our old mastery and things like FV and emp DS slapped on. the less things that effect your AOE tools means its easier mathematically and time wise to fix if its too high or low.

the part with justicars though is that adds are typically stunnable and as of recent, there has been a LOT of add fights. JV damage is weird in the sense that it has to be comparable to TV in some sense to justify the cost and healing. on the other hand the stun component makes it DRAMATICALLY better than any spell we have. this means if you have 4 targets and you have them stunned, your going to use JV on just one of them instead of your DS. thats not only weird but it sort of questions DS's performance.
its just much much much harder to balance a spell like this because you have so many things going on with it and it needs so many things to just work baseline. thats my meh feeling on it. It is fun when it happens and i know its niche, its just you have to realise if that niche will be too strong does it devalue it's strength baseline or does it become mandatory to have a ret who can insta kill adds when they are stunned.

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taeldorian, are you using GJ as a tool for AOE when it is not? if your using a tool for a purpose which it is not intended for it will be clunky. if anything GJ is basically just a effect that you just use passively for cleaving. theres no need to do set up with it it just does it's thing.

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P.S. this is also why i dont think zeal fits anymore either, GJ preforms the same purpose now but better, talent needs changed.

[Morally Grey Storm]

L

During Colossus Judgement of Lothars Smash, you'll use 2 finishers tops.
Then you're back to zero damage for next 12 seconds.

Colossus Smash that warriors have is better by a lot in that regard.

[Taeldorian]

@Reghame, No way jose, only used greater judgement to cleave, it doesn't apply to enough targets to AOE reliably. That's where it gets clunky, but Storm already covered that part. You can either build up HoPo to use during judgement which at max gives you 3 spenders to use during Judgement (and that's only if you hold judgement off to build up HoPo), then you wait 12+ seconds to do reliable damage again. I like the rotation as I've said 100 times already, but it's handicapped by the judgement mechanic itself. This problem can be fixed with a few things which have already been mentioned in plenty of the feedback forums we've had over the last few months but i'll repeat one or two here: 1. Shorten the CD of judgement while increasing it's duration, this leads to more reliable damage. 2. Make judgement a buff so we can cleave/aoe properly. Those two things are both good options that allow us to be more reliable with our damage.

I don't know what kind of fantasy you like for paladin, but being righteous crusaders/avengers who deal justice should be able to rely on their damage.

[Celebhil]

There's no problem perse with the concept of judgement, but its a clunky, shtty version of colossus smash....they need to change it up a bit so its not merely a debuff. And also resolve aoe; which i blame entirely on their ideas regarding the talents....what an absurd idea to borrow from diablo 3. its a very different game from an mmo, in which you are killing hordes of demons and their ilk for most of the game, balanced around 1 to 4 players and a constricted limit of buttons/ spells you can have active at a time. A player needs to reliably switch from aoe to singletagret in Wow (which tends to be 3-10 mob packs, never more nor frequent) and not make talent choices that forfeit one over the other greatly.

[Ulthane]

@Reghame, No way jose, only used greater judgement to cleave, it doesn't apply to enough targets to AOE reliably. That's where it gets clunky, but Storm already covered that part. You can either build up HoPo to use during judgement which at max gives you 3 spenders to use during Judgement (and that's only if you hold judgement off to build up HoPo), then you wait 12+ seconds to do reliable damage again. I like the rotation as I've said 100 times already, but it's handicapped by the judgement mechanic itself. This problem can be fixed with a few things which have already been mentioned in plenty of the feedback forums we've had over the last few months but i'll repeat one or two here: 1. Shorten the CD of judgement while increasing it's duration, this leads to more reliable damage. 2. Make judgement a buff so we can cleave/aoe properly. Those two things are both good options that allow us to be more reliable with our damage.

I don't know what kind of fantasy you like for paladin, but being righteous crusaders/avengers who deal justice should be able to rely on their damage.

-hands cookie- I still feel a cone Judgment with longer Duration would be a cool thing imo.

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So flaws with our rotation can all be tied to Judgment and its downtime and its ability to make AoE a thing. Im going to go ham on this Cone Judgment type deal.

Judgment: Unleash Judgment upon all enemies within range infront of you dealing X damage and subjecting them to Judgment for 30 seconds.

This keeps it as a debuff, NOW we could go truly ham here. COULD, though id not prefer it. If they wanted to go the Inqusition route let us note that we hated Inq because it did NO damage, it was just a maintain buff. Here you could make it cost 3 Holy Power and it would deal MASSIVE damage, like AoE TV almost. Thus initial burst damage AoE every 12 seconds.

In this regard

-Judgment: 3 Holy Power. Unleash Judgment upon your enemies infront of you within 30 yards. Dealing 300% weapon damage as holy and inflicting Judgment upon them for 30 seconds. 12 second cd.

-Art of War: Holy Power consumers have a chance to make your next Judgment not cost Holy Power and refresh it's cooldown.

Talents
-Final Verdict: Increase the damage Judgment and it's debuff by X%
-Execution Sentence: In addition when this deals damage you gain Art of War.
-Consecration: Lowers the CD of your Judgment by 1 second every time it deals damage.

-The Fires of Justice: Now also gains 1 additional charge of Crusader Strike.
-Zeal: Now deals Holy Damage instead and grants haste per stack instead of cleave.
-Greater Judgment: Lowers the cooldown of your Judgment in addition to lowering it's holy power cost by 1.

-Virtue's Blade: Now instead causes your next Templar's Verdict to deal additional damage (maybe double) on the target affected.
-Blade of Wrath: Now deals increased damage, 300%.
-Divine Hammer: Now it's own ability.

-Divine Purpose: Your Judgment ability now causes your next X Holy Power consumers to be free of cost.
-Holy Wrath: Lowered to 20 second cooldown.
-Hammer of Wrath: Replaces Judgment. In addition to effects it now increases damage based on the missing health of the target and increases Mastery after use.

Artifact
-Echo of the Highlord: Animation change lol
@Taeldorian IF damage was tuned in this would Cone Judgment work?

[Snegovik]

Hey guys,
I usually just read and dont write and I try to stay up to date in this thread. If my question was already asked please forgive me^^
I was just wondering about leveling as a ret paladin. I guess the damage is okay-ish (even though I feel like other players I see kill mobs way faster than I do) but my problem is survivability. As soon as I pull more than three mobs I really struggle to stay alive.
Did anyone else have the same experience or am I just fucking up really bad? I´m Level 107 now and it just isnt fun. Ofc once legion hits live it will be different, better gear and so on... Anyway, just my thoughts...

Ret is one of the best specs out there for WPvP and fighting mobs, maybe it is your gear? Just make sure you use Seal of light (for healing from auto attacks), use ES on yourself as heal, make sure you use SS or SH's procs on yourself, kick/hoj casts, kite when needed, use BOPs/Bubble/LOH wisely, when ever you about to pop ES as self healing, try to time it with your wings for additional healing, you also can kite mobs very very well with 50% slow from ur judgements, also glyph ur bubble to restore 10% hp per dot dispelled. Ofc when i was leveling i had full pvp set + legendary cloak from MOP, hence i could solo up to 7 mobs at a time or 3 elites. (also flasks come handy, as well as Eng boots )

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But all honesty, Judgment being a buff with longer duration would be optimal.

You pretty much read my mind as i was reading recent posts, all blizzard has to do is make judgement a self buff, not only it will fix our rotation making it more enjoyable, it will also NOT make us like a cheap copy of an Arms spec.

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Snip

I don't think it will be an issue in Higher end Arena, simply because you set up swaps 20 sec or more ahead of time, only in lower rated Arena where "pros" LOS their healers behind the pillar without trinket chasing ur Ret's sexy butt, then yes if you hoj/swap those nubs without having a judgement ready will hurt you, but those are baddies, hence you will have no issue beating them (this actually happens a LOT when war in battle stance or rogue without trinket or feral chase my ret around pillar, then they die in a hoj =) silly-greedy melee)

The only place it will be an issue is in RBGs where swaps are much more hectic/often, but for RBGs i think we will have to take mass judgement for aoe debuff, since we will be rocking DS instead of FV there.

[Deleted]

Ret is one of the best specs out there for WPvP and fighting mobs, maybe it is your gear? Just make sure you use Seal of light (for healing from auto attacks), use ES on yourself as heal, make sure you use SS or SH's procs on yourself, kick/hoj casts, kite when needed, use BOPs/Bubble/LOH wisely, when ever you about to pop ES as self healing, try to time it with your wings for additional healing, you also can kite mobs very very well with 50% slow from ur judgements, also glyph ur bubble to restore 10% hp per dot dispelled. Ofc when i was leveling i had full pvp set + legendary cloak from MOP, hence i could solo up to 7 mobs at a time or 3 elites. (also flasks come handy, as well as Eng boots )

Guess i forgot to mention that I´m talking about Legion Alpha, not live. Sorry

[Snegovik]

P.S. A bit off topic: All the fellow Rets who loves Casual/World PvP, i strongly suggest you to lvl Eng for Nitro boots/Glider, those things will increase ur pvp enjoyment greatly asp in Legion when Mobility will be an issue. Even on live, i do several casual bgs daily and I die maybe once if that per week, because no1 can catch u, if u simply glide away in EOTs/AB over the edge and if u freedom or bubble + nitro boots. Also you can literally catch any boomkin/resto drood that thinks he can kite you.

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Guess i forgot to mention that I´m talking about Legion Alpha, not live. Sorry

Oh sorry lol, blizzard hates me, since i only pvp, hence no beta key. Reg says we have good survival in legion, 3 flashes heal you almost to full :P.

[Morally Grey Storm]

It's like saying mages have good survivability because evocation heals 2/3 of their hp if channeled fully.

[Taeldorian]

@Ulthane I believe so, the cone judgement could work but it would be a bit unreliable and uncontrollable which leads to the same problem that we have now. It could work though, most likely better than what we have right now. Only reason I say it would be unreliable is because cone damage is a bit weird. On alpha, the add fights don't usually have adds just in front of you, so it would depend on how far the cone travels sideways. Would it reach all the adds on the sidelines?

[Deleted]

Oh sorry lol, blizzard hates me, since i only pvp, hence no beta key. Reg says we have good survival in legion, 3 flashes heal you almost to full :P.

Reg really said something like that ?

[Morally Grey Storm]

Reg really said something like that ?

yeah, somewhere along the lines of "dont worry guys Ret pvp is great, I oneshot people on alpha and it is a surefire proof by itself!".

[Deleted]

Oh well...
Someone has to tell him then : FoL 239K hp heal - HP pool 2M5 in pvp environment... 3 FoL = almost full... Yeah ok.

[Ashelorh]

Kinda off topic but holy shit the numbers are huge, what are they going to do about bosses health? The "can't go over a certain amount of health of bosses because of 32 bit" problem still exists right?

[Ulthane]

@Ulthane I believe so, the cone judgement could work but it would be a bit unreliable and uncontrollable which leads to the same problem that we have now. It could work though, most likely better than what we have right now. Only reason I say it would be unreliable is because cone damage is a bit weird. On alpha, the add fights don't usually have adds just in front of you, so it would depend on how far the cone travels sideways. Would it reach all the adds on the sidelines?

Yea it should, think a giant shotgun blast.

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And if IFFFF IF IF IF Judgment were to cost Holy Power, DEAL massive damage, be a shotgun wide blast cone it would fix a ton as well as the idea of a self buff. Think a big blast that deals damage on par with TV, long duration debuff. Meaning Judgment would be even an amazing AoE tool. I think this concept is sound AND its not a cheap Warrior Knockoff. it's unique then.

[Reghame]

Reg really said something like that ?

last couple of builds we were almost unkillable for nearly most specs but as of the last time i logged in, tons of specs got huge damage boosts to their burst damage so PVP on alpha was basically everyone killing one another in 2-3 seconds but ret was about in the same place so it was harder to do much.

the last couple builds however, things like SoV, bubbles, and the healing/defensive and our base stats row were strong enough to combat most pvp damage if you used them properly. Im not sure how things are going as it stands since i have not logged into alpha for some time this build because the rampancy of DHs are ruining the testing experience ATM for me (doing 2-3 times more damage than everyone in PVP and PVE, tankier than everyone, heals more than everyone, and is more mobile than everyone). sure once their issues get fixed (and i do hope they do, i will loath another "hero class" start expansion) but for testing purposes its all moot because most people are idiots and will just play the most OP things in testing instead of testing things that are new or something they ACTUALLY like to play.

only thing you have to worry about in PVP is your fellow community honestly. our PVP tools are very much capable of handling most specs. We have a weakness and thats ok, our strengths justify it though so the only thing that will matter is if or when people start complaining about ret being able to even lift their foam swords and asks for nerfs. Lets be honest here, a paladin could do 1 damage on every attack and the community would still beg for nerfs if they wished it but W/E.

[Ulthane]

@Taeldorian Actually that might be one of the best ways to go about Judgment without actually compromising anything. Unique, new, takes aspects of the CS but way different.

As a holy power consumer it would be given a leverage to deal massive damage, our mastery would be both a Single Target and AoE/Cleave ability then. It would actually make TV and DS filler though they would hit hard regardless because of Judgment. Personally the visual I have in my head is that you get this wide spread shotgun blast that debuffs for about 30 seconds. It hits hard, it manages better and fits currently their "idea" of a debuff. It would also make the rotation more fluid I think. We hated INQ stuff before simply because a maintenance buff but now its not some maintain buff thing its keep smashing them and smashing them over and over.

[Taeldorian]

Yea it should, think a giant shotgun blast.

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And if IFFFF IF IF IF Judgment were to cost Holy Power, DEAL massive damage, be a shotgun wide blast cone it would fix a ton as well as the idea of a self buff. Think a big blast that deals damage on par with TV, long duration debuff. Meaning Judgment would be even an amazing AoE tool. I think this concept is sound AND its not a cheap Warrior Knockoff. it's unique then.

That's where we're all at fault. It seems that Blizzard is really pushing for certain classes to have distinct niches. For example, right now as ret we will absolutely be good at single target as long as we get tuned correctly, there is no denying that. We will have some insane burst, for example: Adds before the boss, build up HoPo, when the pull starts pop wings, hit judgement and go crazy. It should be decent sustained as well but I'm not really sure because there are currently two different playstyles with judgement. 1. Pooling resources before using judgement which leads to 3 spenders max during the window, or 2. Hitting judgement and building/spending HoPo during the window which leads to 2 spenders max while the window is up. Both lead to different results, but judgement is a 12 second CD with an insanely short duration for the resource system we have which leads to unreliable damage. So, it seems our niche is burst single target and burst cleave, at least that's where I see our opportunities shine.

Whoops, got a bit off topic from what we were discussing. I like your idea, but as stated above I don't really think they want us to be good at aoe which unfortunately dismisses your idea and is possibly why our mastery has remained the same despite all of this feedback, that's the only reason I can think of. That's not to say your idea is bad though, I really do like it because it provides uniqueness and flexibility with our rotation (we can cleave/aoe), but that seems like a long shot due to this whole class niche thing. We aren't the only dps spec that's getting a niche either, others are good at sustained aoe/sustained cleave, burst aoe/sustained ST and the list goes on.

[Ulthane]

That's where we're all at fault. It seems that Blizzard is really pushing for certain classes to have distinct niches. For example, right now as ret we will absolutely be good at single target as long as we get tuned correctly, there is no denying that. We will have some insane burst, for example: Adds before the boss, build up HoPo, when the pull starts pop wings, hit judgement and go crazy. It should be decent sustained as well but I'm not really sure because there are currently two different playstyles with judgement. 1. Pooling resources before using judgement which leads to 3 spenders max during the window, or 2. Hitting judgement and building/spending HoPo during the window which leads to 2 spenders max while the window is up. Both lead to different results, but judgement is a 12 second CD with an insanely short duration for the resource system we have which leads to unreliable damage. So, it seems our niche is burst single target and burst cleave, at least that's where I see our opportunities shine.

Whoops, got a bit off topic from what we were discussing. I like your idea, but as stated above I don't really think they want us to be good at aoe which unfortunately dismisses your idea and is possibly why our mastery has remained the same despite all of this feedback, that's the only reason I can think of.

Then they could easily take the concept of a HARD hitting Judgment. As it is now, but 3 Holy Power, DEALS TONS of damage to that single target and a Duration that is 30 seconds or more so you CAN target swap.

Divine Storm and AoE based abilities would need to be buffed otherwise to between 200 - 300% weapon damage. TV being a hard hitter and potentially DP with JV being a super st finisher. HW lower lower CD to compete. And yea.

OR

Cone idea because that would be cool

Or

Judgment being a buff

OR

Judgment just having a longer damn duration.