Classic World of Warcraft Discussion [Megathread]

[Uurdz]

My personal feeling about this is that the Nost crowd are shouting as loudly as they can in the hopes of making people think there is more genuine interest in this than there actually is.

This point tries to infer that Nost crowd is trying to mis-represent how many people their are, equally anti-legacy crowd is trying to downplay/shush the nost crowd.

Very meh. Blizzard can work it out - easy enough to email all account holders to ask them if they want it and generate intent numbers that way (opt-into Legacy Beta)

[Raelbo]

This point tries to infer that Nost crowd is trying to mis-represent how many people their are, equally anti-legacy crowd is trying to downplay/shush the nost crowd.

Maybe I should have phrased my comment better. I don't know that the Nost crowd is trying to misrepresent anything. What I am saying is that they are making as much noise as they can because they believe the more noise they make, the better the chances are that they will be listened to. It's quite possible that they believe there is more support for their cause than there actually is.

Also, I don't think this has any inferences re the "anti-legacy crowd".

Very meh. Blizzard can work it out - easy enough to email all account holders to ask them if they want it and generate intent numbers that way (opt-into Legacy Beta)

I don't think it's that easy. Firstly, not everyone who wants it will respond. How will they know if they got a 10% response or a 90% response? Secondly, a lot of people might show initial interest, but lose interest within a few weeks/months.

The only way to actually know for sure is to actually implement the servers and then run them for some time and then see how many spent their time and money on it.

[Struggle]

No, it is not "exactly the same" at all. I mean, seriously, this is about as basic is shit gets..... I mean, did you literally just attempt to say that Nost did not "split" the playerbase in any form? If someone was subscribed to WoD, but playing on nost, then they, by very definition, were not playing on WoW during any of their nost play sessions. This is about as basic an example of a "split playerbase" as you can possibly get......

If you are playing on nost, I cant invite you to a group from my WoD acccount. I cant whisper you. I cant trade you. I cant accidentally encounter you while out in the world. I cant gank you. I cant interact with you in any way. How is that not splitting the playerbase?

And no, before you attempt to go there, dont even try to equate having seperate servers for the main game as "splitting" the playerbase. Not the same at all.

By that logic CS:GO splits the player base. Me getting up to take a leak splits the player base for a minute!

[Duronos]

It's not that it's wrong so much as that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

It's not uncommon for people to say they want something. It's not even that uncommon for those people to believe they want the thing the say they want. That doesn't mean that actually getting the thing they say they want will end up meeting their expectations or remain the thing they actually want once they have it.

Mate people want it, it's not a vocal minority. When major news outlets are covering it, people want it because major news outlets don't cover something unless enough people will care. I know on mmo-champ people love Blizzard, yeah they've made some great fucking games there is no denying it.

The problem is that they defend them like they're a god that they must pray to every day 5 times a day. Blizzard makes mistakes and I'm telling you right now it's a huge mistake. You want to know where a lot of the Nost people went too after Nost shutdown? Warmane, that server wasn't terribly huge but it's a somewhat blizz-like Wrath progression server, they're hitting over 10k during the day now. Now imagine a legacy server that actually came from an established company like Blizzard, people would be all over it, it would probably have to be several legacy servers to spread the population out (I personally think an average of 6-7k people online was the definitive best for making a server feel alive in every zone).

And to say people won't spend $5-15 on a sub for it because they are to busy with real life? People spent that money back in Vanilla through BC with full time jobs. I don't really believe the playerbase necessarily changes, publishers want you to think they do but a good game is always a good game. Do I think certain mechanics are outdated, I mean look at Goldeneye 007, you definitely feel the game's age. Vanilla has iffy gearing and specs but the core game is solid (Molten Core and some 5 mans could use some work though), BC though... BC is one of the most perfect games made.

[Uurdz]

Maybe I should have phrased my comment better. I don't know that the Nost crowd is trying to misrepresent anything. What I am saying is that they are making as much noise as they can because they believe the more noise they make, the better the chances are that they will be listened to. It's quite possible that they believe there is more support for their cause than there actually is.

Also, I don't think this has any inferences re the "anti-legacy crowd".



I don't think it's that easy. Firstly, not everyone who wants it will respond. How will they know if they got a 10% response or a 90% response? Secondly, a lot of people might show initial interest, but lose interest within a few weeks/months.

The only way to actually know for sure is to actually implement the servers and then run them for some time and then see how many spent their time and money on it.

Yeah that's reasonable. I think both sides over/under estimate the demand. It's really hard to gauge given the complexities of the game but a based of 150-250k would be sensible - you then have to consider the average longevity and forecast the growth cycle

I think they will be able to compare to other game beta-opt in's and the game sales that follow it. They have a huge amount of meta data from Battle.net.
Agree that the only way to know 100% is to do it, but you can get close to understanding the market by my suggestion.

Over 9 million people signed up for the Overwatch BETA - they are not small numbers and they'll be able to create a reasonably good model based off Overwatch sales of those who signed the BETA.

Sales forcasting is hard, but Blizzard really do have the data to find it. I think previously they underestimated how big the underground was for it - something that I believe has grown in the last 12 months since WoD hasn't delivered what people had hoped. I think they'll do the ground work to get legacy working, do a cost/benefit analysis and then wait to see how Legion goes. They might release Legacy in between Legion launch and the first BIG content patch. I say this because I expect they will want to capitalise on the current hype around it and if they wait too long it might wither and die (anything more than 6months is a bit too long, unless the announce and enter BETA testing around 6-12month period)

[Deleted]

BC is one of the most perfect games made.

Amen to that, or well, there were some major class imbalances, if i remember right feral druids were more or less immortal, but other than that it was AWESOME.

[Raelbo]

Mate people want it, it's not a vocal minority. <snip>

I was explaining why people are skeptical of the claims that a lot of people want legacy servers. Personally I'd be fine with Blizzard releasing a legacy realm. I'll even eat humble pie if it turns out to massively popular, but I highly doubt the vocal minority demanding them would be similarly humble if it turns out they are proven wrong.

[towelliee]

I think previously they underestimated how big the underground was for it - something that I believe has grown in the last 12 months since WoD hasn't delivered what people had hoped.

This is very key. No content = people will go elsewhere like a private server. So when Legion goes out the content is here. Looks promising honestly besides the WoW hate parade. I think Blizzard will let the expansion ride as normal for year see if there is a good amount of sub retention. If so I don't see a reason to look at Legacy. If if plummets then maybe they will fancy the idea.

[Struggle]

I was explaining why people are skeptical of the claims that a lot of people want legacy servers. Personally I'd be fine with Blizzard releasing a legacy realm. I'll even eat humble pie if it turns out to massively popular, but I highly doubt the vocal minority demanding them would be similarly humble if it turns out they are proven wrong.

Well people have been asking for Legacy servers for years, and the concept gains popularity as WoW live turns into an ever different game.

You're going to get complaints from either side either way. If we get them, live players will complain about the community and dev team splitting. If we don't, people will complain about not getting them.

A good portion of us that want Legacy won't be spamming MMOC or WoW general forums, we just straight up won't buy the games or pay sub fees anymore. I can say with 100% certainty that I will not be resubbing or purchasing Legion if it doesn't provide access to a Legacy realm.

[PenguinChan]

This is very key. No content = people will go elsewhere like a private server. So when Legion goes out the content is here. Looks promising honestly besides the WoW hate parade. I think Blizzard will let the expansion ride as normal for year see if there is a good amount of sub retention. If so I don't see a reason to look at Legacy. If if plummets then maybe they will fancy the idea.

My interpretation is that even if they do legacy servers, Blizzard is going to want people to play it even if they do retail. Even with content draughts, there will be ways to bring people over (or get people back). Despite how much individuals like 'purity' for anything classic, most likely a middle ground will be struck with possible pre-orders or incentives to play on legacy. Like new the original CE pets or something, mounts that you no longer can get, things like that.

But yeah, I've always held the opinion that they won't do anything until after Legion has released and shown how much interest is still in retail. So long as it keeps a decent flow of subs they won't bother with legacy as a huge project, but otherwise probably a small one over time. Maybe not even that but there is hope.

[Kuntantee]

People are still trying to argue against this?

It's mostly coming from people who claim how flawless and how enjoyable the current game is all day in mmo-champion, the avid defenders of Blizzard. Accepting the reality of vanilla servers is a colossal "you were wrong" right in their face. Of course they will fight against it, it's against their fanboy narrative.

[Aleks0410]

Accepting the reality of vanilla servers is a colossal "you were wrong" right in their face.

I agree with you, but put on your flame suit.

[Struggle]

It's mostly coming from people who claim how flawless and how enjoyable the current game is all day in mmo-champion, the avid defenders of Blizzard. Accepting the reality of vanilla servers is a colossal "you were wrong" right in their face. Of course they will fight against it, it's against their fanboy narrative.

I don't think that's true. Granted there are assholes on both sides that do say things like that or the equivalent from the pro-Legacy side, over all people seem pretty accepting of the debate and exhange of ideas.

It also doesn't mean they were wrong, not in the slightest. Millions of people still enjoy playing retail WoW, and even more would play live if we had Legacy subscription plans to boot. It just means I want to play my old game.

Just because I like A Link to the Past the most, or want to play it currently, doesn't mean the newest Zelda game is terrible.

But yeah, I've always held the opinion that they won't do anything until after Legion has released and shown how much interest is still in retail. So long as it keeps a decent flow of subs they won't bother with legacy as a huge project, but otherwise probably a small one over time. Maybe not even that but there is hope.

Wouldn't the smart move be sooner? You really want a sub boost, release Legacy servers for Vanilla - Wrath when the movie marketing really kicks in. Lot of us old players are going to go see it, perfect way to get the word out.

[Chemii]

You can go on and keep believing this but I will address each part. If you don't think leveling is important, then we simply disagree. It is ok that you disagree with me.

But if you think people left WoD because of lack of content and garrisons, you are missing the big picture. WoD brought people back in giving them the perception that this would be somewhat akin to TBC. It wasn't. In that the people were not interacting with the world. Is that the fault of garrisons? In a way I can say yes but I think you are missing the point. The point is that all these players came back hoping that WoW would be more like old wow. For the reasons of garrisons and a ton of other reasons (LFG, phasing, fast leveling, no world interactions) it wasn't. Content is not just putting in more raids, more coding, more gear etc. Content is what you make of it. Vanilla content was not limited to AQ, MC or Naxx. The world was the content. You blaming content lulls is really a red herring. It isn't the lulls that caused people to leave, it is the game itself.

Content IS the game, I don't understand your point here, it feels like you contradict yourself. There is currently very little to do in Warcraft (you can't dispute this), just blanket "adding" it through some superficial difficulty gates in the open world wouldn't have saved the expansion. The failings of WoD are a few pieces of key content and those systems being detrimental to the community and enjoyment of the game - This coupled with very little major patch development outside of raids made the world feel very small. Frankly, there wasn't much reason to do anything besides login for raids or smash arena endlessly.

If this wasn't true - then why didn't MoP suffer the same way? The major patches in MoP were substantial and interesting to the playerbase - the content was strong. It was still as easy.

The bigger picture? I think you're referring to the effect of the subtle changes since vanilla on the player base I assume, even at a sub concious level. I recognise those concerns but I don't think you fix a problem by going backwards. That's a pretty horrible way of thinking actually. I also think that some veterans like to think the game was better than it actually was in Vanilla & TBC. Thankfully I am not sentimental at all, as it makes people say some pretty stupid things.

If you want to play the game for nostalgia just say it, stop trying to say it's because of WoD or anything else.

[stomination]

This point tries to infer that Nost crowd is trying to mis-represent how many people their are, equally anti-legacy crowd is trying to downplay/shush the nost crowd.

Very meh. Blizzard can work it out - easy enough to email all account holders to ask them if they want it and generate intent numbers that way (opt-into Legacy Beta)

You can mass create battlenet accounts without spending money.

[Struggle]

I also think that some veterans like to think the game was better than it actually was in Vanilla & TBC. Thankfully I am not sentimental at all, as it makes people say some pretty stupid things.

If you want to play the game for nostalgia just say it, stop trying to say it's because of WoD or anything else.

Won't lie and say it's not nostalgia or sentimentality at all...of course there's some. But it's mostly just opinion. I think BC is the best game I've ever played to this day, and I don't enjoy WoD at all, with Legion not looking very attractive either. Doesn't make them good and bad games, it means I like BC and not modern WoW, and you like the opposite. Same way I may like liver and onions and you might not.

[HuxNeva]

Go play on a private server. Even though we can't link them they are not hard to find, and come in any flavor and any expansion. Maybe it is not your thing, but talk to some people there and try to figure out why they play there instead of Bliz WoD, even though their hard leveled characters (x1 vanilla with no speed-ups for instance) might be wiped out any minute, just disappear with no trace, live with server script bugs etc etc. I guarantee it will be an eyeopener.

[Fokstar]

Go play on a private server. Even though we can't link them they are not hard to find, and come in any flavor and any expansion. Maybe it is not your thing, but talk to some people there and try to figure out why they play there instead of Bliz WoD, even though their hard leveled characters (x1 vanilla with no speed-ups for instance) might be wiped out any minute, just disappear with no trace, live with server script bugs etc etc. I guarantee it will be an eyeopener.

Cuz everything in vanilla takes ages, so they never run out of what to do quickly like on retail.
Some like it, some don't but it's true.

[Dontrike]

BC is one of the most perfect games made.

I wouldn't go as far as to say perfect. It definitely added to what Vanilla had in place and improved on a lot that didn't work. There was only a few specs that were terrible, rather than one in each class like in Vanilla. BC had its issues, like the lack of tier 5 testing, making SSC and TK almost impossible to complete for a while and if it wasn't for the emergence of needing Sunwell we would have had Black Temple for almost two years. Now you can say "well we would have had ToC for that long as well", but remember that Sunwell was never planned and was pushed out quickly, although it was some great content for the small time they worked on it. Sunwell wouldn't have been as necessary if some things were spaced out a bit more. Not to mention the biggest blemish to BC being the worst patch ever, with 2.2. Now people say 6.1 added nothing, but 2.2 literally added nothing because everything that patch put in is now gone, that being the VOIP system that WoW had until removed in Cata, I think. Splitting up guilds into Raid A and Raid B, sometimes even Raid C, was a little awkward with Karazhan and Zul' Aman, but that was mostly growing pains of a new system until you got out of tier 4.

Even with those issues it definitely was better than Vanilla because it improved on everything it needed to, from making raids less tedious, thanks to going from 40 man to 25 man. Getting gold was actually possible to acquire with the invention of daily quests in 2.1, not to mention before hand with the elements you needed to farm, which was a huge cash cow in the beginning (how I bought my epic flying and mount). PvP centered areas didn't feel tiring or annoying, like Silithus or Eastern Plaguelands, although Terrokar wasn't great. Arena gave a new way to PvP, which was needed in a time where WSG or AV could run for 2+ to 12+ hours, respectively, quick PvP being nice in that age.

TLDR - It wasn't perfect, but it was damn good, for sure.

[Deficineiron]

My interpretation is that even if they do legacy servers, Blizzard is going to want people to play it even if they do retail. Even with content draughts, there will be ways to bring people over (or get people back). Despite how much individuals like 'purity' for anything classic, most likely a middle ground will be struck with possible pre-orders or incentives to play on legacy. Like new the original CE pets or something, mounts that you no longer can get, things like that.

But yeah, I've always held the opinion that they won't do anything until after Legion has released and shown how much interest is still in retail. So long as it keeps a decent flow of subs they won't bother with legacy as a huge project, but otherwise probably a small one over time. Maybe not even that but there is hope.

right, and in order for it to be 'accessible' to the legion playerbase, they will nerf any legacy realm to triviality. By modern activision-blizzard standards, classic is a very inaccessible game.

I still think Frankenstein servers are much more likely than genuine legacy servers. Expecting Activision-Blizzard to re-release a game they feel intentionally restricts its potential market is like asking McDonalds to release a hamburger with taste elements they assume most customers will not like.