[LEGION] Brewmaster Discussion

[Ampere]

RJW does need to be baseline. It's our Thunderclap at this point

I think they should remove Blackout Strike's CD and adjust the artifact trait as necessary. Then tune RJW such that Blackout Strike is a better choice on single target. I don't like how visually noisy RJW is if it's something we're going to have up 100% of the time... so I'd either like it out of the rotation or visually toned down.

I know Niuzao might end up tuned to be better for single target anyway, but if RJW were made baseline at we still had no filler with no CD, it'd probably end up optimal to weave in.

[Saiyoran]

Do we know yet when the next build is supposed to be? I haven't been keeping track of how frequently they happen, but I'm really interested in testing out a version of Brewmaster that will feel competitive to other tanks.

[Deleted]

Do we know yet when the next build is supposed to be? I haven't been keeping track of how frequently they happen, but I'm really interested in testing out a version of Brewmaster that will feel competitive to other tanks.

Last few weeks we got a build every week.
Today in EU we celebrate "Ascension of Christ" (as known as Father's Day in US) and in most countries it's a public holiday (e.g. France) so many people are not working...May because of that we didn't get a build this week.

[stross01]

Last few weeks we got a build every week.
Today in EU we celebrate "Ascension of Christ" (as known as Father's Day in US) and in most countries it's a public holiday (e.g. France) so many people are not working...May because of that we didn't get a build this week.

That's not a holiday people get off work for in the US.

We've gotten a build at 6-13-day intervals since alpha came out.

[dcc626]

and we are getting one right now

[stross01]

\[T]/

praise

[Julmara]

wohoo we may be viable once again \o/

[stross01]

Class Status – We’ve made many iterations based on feedback and testing. Here are some highlights:
General – Tuning has started! A very rough pass has been made over all classes to get them into the same ballpark. Note that we have not yet finished a first tuning pass on artifacts yet; some specs are still significantly under- or over-powered with full artifacts. At this point, class mechanics are firm, but not necessarily set in stone yet.
Protection Paladins – Revisions to Judgment, Avenger’s Shield, Consecration, and Shield of the Righteous, and Hammer of the Righteous, to create better gameplay. Seraphim readded as a talent.
Brewmaster Monks – Gift of the Ox changed to trigger more reliably, and not trigger more often at low health. This effect has been moved to a talent, replacing Secret Ingredients. Expel Harm readded as a baseline ability.
Retribution Paladins – Holy Wrath talent replaced with a new version of Sanctified Wrath.
Marksmanship Hunters – Vulnerable revised to not snare the target.
Artifact Trait Status – Mechanics are firm at this point, but not necessarily set in stone. An initial tuning pass is still ongoing. Some noteworthy changes include:
Retribution Paladins – Divine Tempest and Echo of the Highlord tweaked.
Brewmaster Monk – Active ability revised to grant a defensive benefit.
Unholy Death Knight – Active ability revised to not overlap with Army of the Dead.
Arcane Mages – Active ability revised to be attached to a target, instead of the ground.
Broken Shore – Now ready for testing by Horde!
Order Hall Campaigns – We’re ready to test the campaigns (including Missions) for a few additional classes:
Druid
Priest
Warrior

Wonder what the bold part means.

[v1perz53]

Wonder what the bold part means.

This is in the changes:

Exploding Keg Name changed from "Flaming Keg" to "Exploding Keg". Hurls a flaming keg at the target's location, dealing [ 1 + 250% of AP ] Fire damage to the target and nearby enemies. and causing them to miss their next attack. Artifact. 40 yd range. Instant. 1.2 min cooldown.

Sounds odd, could end up very strong or worthless depending on what things it works on and what it doesn't. I would assume just auto attacks, but even still not the worst "oh crap gotta buy 2 seconds" idea, may work well with BrM mastery if it doesn't count as a dodge. At least it is interesting, not just "you take XX% less damage for Y seconds"

[Leblue]

Also depends on if it affects bosses or not (I'd assume so but till someone tests it on a raid boss...). IMO would rather have the less flavorful, but more functional reduces X% damage for Y seconds. That's just me though (~")~

[stross01]

This is in the changes:



Sounds odd, could end up very strong or worthless depending on what things it works on and what it doesn't. I would assume just auto attacks, but even still not the worst "oh crap gotta buy 2 seconds" idea, may work well with BrM mastery if it doesn't count as a dodge. At least it is interesting, not just "you take XX% less damage for Y seconds"

"Oh crap gotta buy 2 seconds" "oh yeah, it takes 2 seconds to travel"

This is a pretty strange change.

Those damage buffs are HUGE though.

[Ampere]

Gonna make a feedback post here and copy it to the official feedback thread when they put up the new thread

Did some testing with the new build, level 100 character with only the base artifact trait and the Keg Smash + damage trait.

Expel Harm is a huge QoL improvement over "I need a heal, where are those orbs?". Ironskin + Purify gameplay still leaves much to be desired. Purify at 50% still feels awful, when I press it there's not a lot of feedback to me that I've done something useful, even though there is mitigation occurring. Binary AM checks like on Tirathon in Vault of the Wardens are not appropriate for the new tanking style. I don't have the uptime to keep my AM up for his AM checks AND use it when I really need it because normal damage is rotting me. I've expressed a desire for binary AM checks to not be a thing anymore and here I express this again.

It just doesn't feel like we have enough charges of brews, even with the Light Brewing talent. When things get really rough and my health is getting low, it's basically over there's nothing I can really do to save myself. It's all on the healer.

Celestial Fortune feels really terrible. It's a considerable portion of our healing received (averaging 16% of my healing received on a boss), but I have nothing to do with it and it's completely random. Elusive Brew used to be our crit interaction ability, and while it sucked in circumstances like Glaive Thrust being RNG and no flat mitigation, it's worlds better than "randomly, you get healed for more". I would much rather this mechanic be removed entirely and our mitigation/heals brought up to compensate.

Keg Smash damage feels a lot better, but now it's like 40% of our damage even single target. Might be too much.

Overall, and this could be tuning, I feel paper thin without Ironskin Brew up, I don't feel like I have enough charges to meaningfully mitigate much damage, and the spec still frustrates me immensely. I don't have much to complain about Gift of the Ox anymore with Expel Harm added back, though the size of the heals feels lackluster without artifact traits (I know this might not be the case with a maxed out artifact at level 110). I think we need an armor buff, Stagger nerf, Celestial Fortune replacement and buff to Gift of the Ox, and an additional stagger nerf to whatever it needs to be for Purifying Brew to be back at 100%. It might sound strange, but it just sucks the happiness out of me to hit purify and still see a bunch of stagger remaining.

[stross01]

I may be confused about the proc rate of this new Gift of the Ox. I can still go 70% of my hp before one spawns outside of the artifact ability, with or without the new talent.

Actually, just went 100% of my life without spawning a single orb.

[keqe]

I may be confused about the proc rate of this new Gift of the Ox. I can still go 70% of my hp before one spawns outside of the artifact ability, with or without the new talent.

Actually, just went 100% of my life without spawning a single orb.

I guess it takes in the direct damage that is absorbed, but it doesn't "double tip" by taking stagger DoT itself? So when you lost 100% of your HP, maybe about 30-40% of that was from stagger DoT that is ignored?

edit: But even if that was the case you would have taken 100% of your life as damage too because the stagger DoT was already considered in the absorb part. You should have gotten an orb.

[stross01]

I guess it takes in the direct damage that is absorbed, but it doesn't "double tip" by taking stagger DoT itself? So when you lost 100% of your HP, maybe about 30-40% of that was from stagger DoT that is ignored?

This is worse than before the 'increased/regular spawn rate', though. Unless they meant they regularly don't spawn.

They made a lot of changes to the legendaries to actually make them wearable.

[keqe]

The BoF CD reset one seems good for damage, especially AoE. The purify heal can possibly be the most useful if "regular" tanking is issue. The zen meditation one can be extremely useful for certain bosses and their abilities.

At least getting the Zen Med one can possibly be important.

[Leblue]

I'll be curious how the new GotOx talent ends up shaking out with full (or at least most) artifact traits at 110, but I'm skeptical at best about it. I want to say how it *should* work is that while you'll have more vulnerable periods you're able to push enough healing out to mitigate dropping too low where you feel threatened into using the extra brew you would've gotten from the other two talents so it *should* effectively be a sort of playstyle change to be more of a self healing tank (skewing the spec towards the Death Knight end of things).

I may be confused about the proc rate of this new Gift of the Ox. I can still go 70% of my hp before one spawns outside of the artifact ability, with or without the new talent.

Actually, just went 100% of my life without spawning a single orb.

Seems weird. How I understand it is that you should (after taking 100% of your health in damage after damage reduction and absorbs but before stagger) you should spawn an orb with the talent changing it back to a buffed version of what it was previously. May be a bug though.

I guess it takes in the direct damage that is absorbed, but it doesn't "double tip" by taking stagger DoT itself? So when you lost 100% of your HP, maybe about 30-40% of that was from stagger DoT that is ignored?

It would make sense if the stagger dot is ignored though because its already accounted for the prestagger damage. If you took a 100 damage hit and staggered 80% of it its already put 100 damage into the counter and letting stagger count again would add up to 80 more to the counter extra to the hit making a hit be worth potentially 180% of its value in generating orbs if you let the full stagger dot tick. I think stagger ticking would've made more sense previously when damage taken was after damage reductions, absorbs, and stagger but now that it doesn't take in stagger it doesn't make as much sense to let it "double dip".

[fringemoo]

I guess it takes in the direct damage that is absorbed, but it doesn't "double tip" by taking stagger DoT itself? So when you lost 100% of your HP, maybe about 30-40% of that was from stagger DoT that is ignored?

edit: But even if that was the case you would have taken 100% of your life as damage too because the stagger DoT was already considered in the absorb part. You should have gotten an orb.

You get _ONE_ orb once you have taken 100% of your health in damage, where damage is the hit (including the stagger) portion.

Absorb doesn't count for the calculation, it's considered damage taken.

So if I have 100k max-hp and 50k absorb and I get hit for 50k (after armor / stuff / but not stagger) an orb will spawn after two hits. There is now 0 randomness to it, with the current incarnation you can create an addon that will show when an orb will spawn.

[keqe]

You get _ONE_ orb once you have taken 100% of your health in damage, where damage is the hit (including the stagger) portion.

Absorb doesn't count for the calculation, it's considered damage taken.

So if I have 100k max-hp and 50k absorb and I get hit for 50k (after armor / stuff / but not stagger) an orb will spawn after two hits. There is now 0 randomness to it, with the current incarnation you can create an addon that will show when an orb will spawn.

With absorb I was referring to the "reduction" part of stagger which acts like an absorb in game. I should have been more clear though.

It is also better that the stagger DoT doesn't generate Orbs. It would be another thing on the list of things that make purifying "punishing".

[Deleted]

Sounds odd, could end up very strong or worthless depending on what things it works on and what it doesn't. I would assume just auto attacks, but even still not the worst "oh crap gotta buy 2 seconds" idea, may work well with BrM mastery if it doesn't count as a dodge. At least it is interesting, not just "you take XX% less damage for Y seconds"

A flat "recuce damage taken by x for y sec" is may not really interesting, but we are the only tank without a short time, short CD, instant and especially real damage reduce.
Tanks just need at least one spell like that.
You can use ISB as a "reduce", yes, but what is with armory piercing and stagger ignoring spells like Mannoroth's Glaive Thrust? Will we getting crushed without external? There was still no answer to this question from blizzard.

I may be confused about the proc rate of this new Gift of the Ox. I can still go 70% of my hp before one spawns outside of the artifact ability, with or without the new talent.

Actually, just went 100% of my life without spawning a single orb.

Seems like a bug and must be fixed asap.
Celaston stated, that we'll get a orb for every 100% of Hp but the calculation starts before we get the stagger buff.
Means:
You have 1000 HP and 50% Stagger.
If you get a Hit like 500 (before staggering) you have the "half" of an orb, direct Damage is 250, HP left: 750.
After the 2nd hit (again 500) you should spawn an orb and have left 500 HP (+/- because of stagger ticks).

It is also better that the stagger DoT doesn't generate Orbs. It would be another thing on the list of things that make purifying "punishing".

Stagger didn't count because it's already implied in the formula.

Off of that:
What do you think about or legendaries? Imho, 2 or 3 out of our legendaries are cool and useful, but the other are more or less meh.

The healing after purifying stagger is rally cool and will be set in nearly every scenario i guess.
The BoF reset after Keg Smash could be a solide damage buff (as soon as bosses can be affected by the BoF dot) and, with Dragonfire Brew, a way to min/max our damage taken by keeping the buff up as much as possible.
Stagger lasts 3 sec longer will be a strong DTPS and TMI reduce. Not bad, but dunno...Won't be my favourite.

These two are good and useful, but the other:
3 Energy per Dodge is extrem situationally and could be good in heavy add fights or dungeons, but i won't compare to the sustained dmg reduce nor the healing one i guess.
Zen Medidation for 3 Melee swings is a joke, imo. You have to stand still for up to 6 seconds and can't to anything but picking your nose. I can't see any situation where this can compare to the other legendaries, even to the dodge one.

BoF reducing the CD on FB for every enemy hit may can be strong in really specific situations if you combine that with the KS resets BoF one and choose Fortified Mind as talent but overall really weak without a lot of tunig.