Preach Ranks Legion Tanks. (Tanking in Legion is Bad?)

[Deleted]

Welcome to vanilla/tbc tanking. Tanks were meat shields. they dealt threat, dps dealt dmg, and healers dealt heals. Wait, i just re-read your second statement. you've mistakenly asserted that tanking in MoP and WoD was a challenge. And a "high skilled" tank being almost unkillable in their own hands its part of what made WoD so fucking boring and lackluster. I literally dont have to use my keyboard at all when i run 5mans. i just press a couple buttons on my mouse and that's it. boring AF. bring back some tension of knowing you could get faceplanted at any second if the healer wasnt up to snuff. too much hand-holding for FAR TOO LONG. Time to put your big-kid pants on now, folks.

In my opinion MoP had the tanking absolutely spot on, EXCEPT for the out of control dps on certain encounters.
Think back to Siegecrafter heroic (old mythic), I'm not sure I can think of a fight that was more engaging for tanks, but still fairly difficult at relevant gear levels.

Any talk about 5 mans is silly really, they've never been hard lets be honest.

[Nihilan]

Five-mans are going to be meaningful high-end content come Legion. Like it or not.

[Raiju]

Five-mans are going to be meaningful high-end content come Legion. Like it or not.

All talk has been about live 5 mans, which they're right is completely irrelevant.

[Saracens]

Omg yes. Fury warriors vanilla style!

Be prepared for agility plate, too ^^

[Lightup]

Welcome to vanilla/tbc tanking. Tanks were meat shields. they dealt threat, dps dealt dmg, and healers dealt heals. Wait, i just re-read your second statement. you've mistakenly asserted that tanking in MoP and WoD was a challenge. And a "high skilled" tank being almost unkillable in their own hands its part of what made WoD so fucking boring and lackluster. I literally dont have to use my keyboard at all when i run 5mans. i just press a couple buttons on my mouse and that's it. boring AF. bring back some tension of knowing you could get faceplanted at any second if the healer wasnt up to snuff. too much hand-holding for FAR TOO LONG. Time to put your big-kid pants on now, folks.

Note I only write when someone says stupid shit so congratz you made the list

Tanking in vanilla/tbc was tied to threat that is correct but threat back than worked defferently. A tank had to work for aggro not like today when you use 1 aoe spell and everything glue to you, because of that reason they showed leniency with defensives.

The problem you probably can't pass through your thick skull is with threat management gone (since wrath) and with the active mitigation changes tanks have nothing to manage you might as well replace them with a traget dummie who can aggro mobs

[Marrilaife]

This isn't a tuning fail though, this is the end result of
"We don't want tanks to actively manage their own survival"
and
"We don't want tanks 50x tankier than dps"

The end result is dps aren't that much squishier than tanks. To the end that tanks are redundant before mythic / organized raids.

Is Blizzard planning to turn normal / hc dungeons into "scenarios" which don't require a tank (or even specific team comp)? A lot of people would feel that would improve the queue times etc.

Because on the other hand what kind of tank wants to queue for a dungeon where he's redundant and would better be replaced with an extra dps? It's not good experience to feel useless.

[Raiju]

Is Blizzard planning to turn normal / hc dungeons into "scenarios" which don't require a tank (or even specific team comp)? A lot of people would feel that would improve the queue times etc.

Because on the other hand what kind of tank wants to queue for a dungeon where he's redundant and would better be replaced with an extra dps? It's not good experience to feel useless.

I doubt that's the intention, it's just bad design under the goal of making tanking more 'accessible'.

It might be an idea later, though. I'm not playing a tank in legion so it won't bother me while playing. Sucks for people trying to stick to tanks, though.

[RoxyBlue]

Note I only write when someone says stupid shit so congratz you made the list

Tanking in vanilla/tbc was tied to threat that is correct but threat back than worked defferently. A tank had to work for aggro not like today when you use 1 aoe spell and everything glue to you, because of that reason they showed leniency with defensives.

The problem you probably can't pass through your thick skull is with threat management gone (since wrath) and with the active mitigation changes tanks have nothing to manage you might as well replace them with a traget dummie who can aggro mobs

So have them bring back threat ...oh wait people bitched about that, and they bitched about having to to hit block/parry/dodge/defense caps. Let me go farm up thunderfury so I can make sure and have all the agro.

Im being silly but this is all changing for one reason only, the majority of players. They arent making the game for the 5% even wod was done for the majority, easy fast done. Its that majority blizz has to attract, and they throw in things like mythic for the smaller percentage.

[meian]

What i think would be a good idea is that give tanks a bit larger health pools (yeah read that right ) and make their AM matter a lot more, only not such amount as in live.

Then they should balance it such a way that when a tank dont does it right the healer should OoM themselv pretty much everytime.

That I am behind too. I pretty much want some sort of compelling game play where the reward for being a 95th percentile tank is reasonably greater than a 25th percentile one. As it is right now you can just plug nearly any asshole of the right class that can figure out how to stand at a marker and manage a target swap macro.

- - - Updated - - -

Welcome to vanilla/tbc tanking. Tanks were meat shields. they dealt threat, dps dealt dmg, and healers dealt heals. Wait, i just re-read your second statement. you've mistakenly asserted that tanking in MoP and WoD was a challenge. And a "high skilled" tank being almost unkillable in their own hands its part of what made WoD so fucking boring and lackluster. I literally dont have to use my keyboard at all when i run 5mans. i just press a couple buttons on my mouse and that's it. boring AF. bring back some tension of knowing you could get faceplanted at any second if the healer wasnt up to snuff. too much hand-holding for FAR TOO LONG. Time to put your big-kid pants on now, folks.

If you are playing like that in 5mans then you are pulling like a sissy. Stop that. Example: Everbloom is 4 pulls including bosses.

[Lightup]

So have them bring back threat ...oh wait people bitched about that, and they bitched about having to to hit block/parry/dodge/defense caps. Let me go farm up thunderfury so I can make sure and have all the agro.

Im being silly but this is all changing for one reason only, the majority of players. They arent making the game for the 5% even wod was done for the majority, easy fast done. Its that majority blizz has to attract, and they throw in things like mythic for the smaller percentage.

The changes to active mitigation were not aimed at the majority they were aimed at skilled players. A good tank was not only sturdy but the fact he took less damage allowed healers to focus on the raid more and make the fight significantly easier which created a gap in raiding between high end guilds and casual guilds.

My argument isn't that active mitigation didn't go to far it did but they made the only layer of gameplay we had left insignificant (remember threat gameplay hadn't been replaced with anything to this day).

*btw removing threat was good for everyone because it created problems for every player regardless of skill lvl

[RoxyBlue]

what really fucked up people about threat gameplay was Tanks Skillcap = enforced whole raids skillcap


if you tank was in gameplay more bad then your dps, they must hold back

To a certain extent, back when dps had to wait for threat to generate was not about tanks skillcap so much as about game mechanics. There was a reason for target marking, and kill priority KTM was a thing for a reason. Because no matter how good the tank there were dps specific regulations that had to be adhered to by any competent raid team dps def had to watch their KTM. But threat hasnt been an issue for a long time cept for rare instances of a full raid geared dps vs a new green geared tank. Even then tanks still have taunt. So the holding back of the dps in old days was not about bad tanks so much as about the game mechanics themselves it was programmed to not gain threat till after an allotted time and ability uptime. And then it was programmed for monsters to make a beeline for whoever was inflicting the most pain. Hence why you would hear in vent back then, slow your dps, because the game would build up dps threat and the more you crit the mob would look at you. Bad tanks didnt raid current then, if your tank was bad you never progressed.

- - - Updated - - -

The changes to active mitigation were not aimed at the majority they were aimed at skilled players. A good tank was not only sturdy but the fact he took less damage allowed healers to focus on the raid more and make the fight significantly easier which created a gap in raiding between high end guilds and casual guilds.

My argument isn't that active mitigation didn't go to far it did but they made the only layer of gameplay we had left insignificant (remember threat gameplay hadn't been replaced with anything to this day).

*btw removing threat was good for everyone because it created problems for every player regardless of skill lvl

I have np either way I tanked when caps were a thing, I tanked when threat was a thing. The reason I say mop/wod tanking was easy as hell was because you can be neigh invulnerable. And with a healer to boot a good tank would be the last one to die in a raid wipe, and if I had a copper for how many times I had that happen. But we could maintain almost 100% uptime on AM in many cases, and many had self healing. Blizz wants tanks to be actual meat shields again im guessing, I havent played legion alpha so im going on hearsay. Meat shields without having to worry about threat, and defense that is slow or long in coming, relying on healers more than the last couple of expansions.

[Heladys]

In my opinion MoP had the tanking absolutely spot on, EXCEPT for the out of control dps on certain encounters.

Oh my god, I loved that though. A decent DPS could still clobber the shit out of me, but there were so many who weren't decent that I would utterly shame off the planet, it was a good time.

[kamuimac]

I doubt that's the intention, it's just bad design under the goal of making tanking more 'accessible'.

It might be an idea later, though. I'm not playing a tank in legion so it won't bother me while playing. Sucks for people trying to stick to tanks, though.

it worked fine for many years before mop - just because you dont like it why it has to be failed ? maybe in eyes of blizzard mop/wod tanking was a fail regardles of positive feedback from mythic crowd.

[Raiju]

it worked fine for many years before mop - just because you dont like it why it has to be failed ? maybe in eyes of blizzard mop/wod tanking was a fail regardles of positive feedback from mythic crowd.

What's this many years? Wrath? Wrath as a shambles for tanks with multiple tiers having completely nonviable tanks. Cataclysm created the active mitigation DK that became the template for mop/wod so they clearly thought it was the best part of cataclysm.

Prior to wrath threat was the game.

[Mhyroth]

What I don't understand is that certain people are allowed to post video's in their own thread on this forum, while others get whimpeld off to the megathread regarding video's.
If you have rules, have them the same for everyone, else the credibility of your content will go down.

[Deleted]

As you can see in the gameplay footage in this video the opinion on classes is based on poorly geared lvl 100 chars in normal dungeons, which isn't close to show how well or not a spec will play (just consider a lvl 90 with 500 ilvl right now doing bloodmaul slag mines and how relevant it is to high level tanking)

The video is poorly done and researched : paladins filler doing nothing -> judgement reduces sotr cd, consecration buffs sotr, demon hunters doing nothing but shear and soul cleave -> fel eruption, fracture, fel devastation ?

Overall it looks more like a "Hey Guys i did 2 normal dungeons on every tank at low level let me give you my relevant opinion about their gameplay" disguised under an in depth tank analysis, just another rushed "drama" video to get some easy views

Your post gave info that the video was missing. That really makes me wonder. I wish Blizz would just put the pre-patch on the PTR for use to test so everyone can get the taste of the gameplay. Either that or make an open beta every weekend. No need to give acess to the alpha forums, but let people be informed by beeing able to test run these things. This whole testing with the select few can be very misleading. A better argument can be made if a more informed audience can be made to experience it.

[Musta Kyy]

So it just looks like we have to go back to the old ways of CC'n mobs, It's what people wanted right? Harder content & more group interaction so in my honest opinion this may be a step in the right direction.

You can make harder content without making tanks weak as hell.

Last expansions: Skilled tank and healer can make hard content easier.
In Legion: Even a skilled tank will take massive amounts of damage and its all about the healer now.

You know the feeling when you have to taunt the boss as a fury warrior or feral druid and you just hope for the best? That is legion tanking.

Edit: People will hate healing in legion because of these tank changes.

[Raiju]

What I don't understand is that certain people are allowed to post video's in their own thread on this forum, while others get whimpeld off to the megathread regarding video's.
If you have rules, have them the same for everyone, else the credibility of your content will go down.

Everyone's videos should go in relevant topics, but preach caters to the same type of people who spam new topics everytime instead of just using an existing active one. This video was at the start of 5 different threads I think and the only reason it's not entirely removed I assume is the separate mods didn't have a get together about his latest video.

[Daffan]

Calling it now. Legion will have a lot of content to do BUT it will fail because of gameplay mechanics.

Probably not on the content regard.

As soon as patch 7.1 hits (or the first content patch) all the original content will be worthless and obsolete and it will be back to grinding out a single raid for 6 months until they release the next content patch.

[Grandork]

Probably not on the content regard.

As soon as patch 7.1 hits (or the first content patch) all the original content will be worthless and obsolete and it will be back to grinding out a single raid for 6 months until they release the next content patch.

The whole point of the system they made is to make so that doesn't happen, everything scales with you and for the World Quest, all they have to do is up the rewards in terms of ilvl.