(Spoilers) Anyone play the Horde Broken Shore yet?

[gcsmith]

I mean, at the least, you, the player character, and Jaina survive as Alliance, so you kind of flee too. As the final cinematics aren't in, we don't know the exact specifics, so unless a N'aaru comes in and forcibly removes you from the Isle, presumably you flee as Alliance at the end too.

"Herp derp, alliance flee too, even though they were forced to by their allies fleeing so you're as bad as them." Fleeing after your allies fleeing is not the same as abandoning the ally.

[Merixa]

That's precisely what every deserter from a battle ever always says. "It was clear we were going to lose, I decided to save my ass in order to kill more of those guys next time, if I stayed, I'd just have died too." Then he is asked "what about your brothers in arms who stayed to fight" to which he has no answer, and the matter is quickly concluded. The answer to "So what, I should have stayed to die together with others?" is "Yes". That's how it works in a war.

There are no issues with a retreat. But it has to be a common retreat. If you "retreat" while others stay to fight, that's not a retreat, that's you fleeing.

I think you're confusing the Alliance and Horde joint forces to be more connected than it is. Yes they were fighting together but the Horde don't make their choice because the Alliance do and the Alliance don't make theirs based on the Horde. The Horde leadership decided the save their people and retreat from an impossible victory. The Alliance could have made the same choice, but they chose not to. That's not the Hordes fault. That's the Alliance leaders fault. Why should the Horde get themselves wipes out because the Alliance leaders are happy to let their people die against such an impossible foe? Yes let's have both factions die so then there's no defence for the world at all!

Yeah... the Horde made the right choice. The Alliance let pride and hate get too them it feels and because of it they lost a leader.

[rda]

I think you're confusing the Alliance and Horde joint forces to be more connected than it is. Yes they were fighting together but the Horde don't make their choice because the Alliance do and the Alliance don't make theirs based on the Horde. The Horde leadership decided the save their people and retreat from an impossible victory. The Alliance could have made the same choice, but they chose not to. That's not the Hordes fault. That's the Alliance leaders fault. Why should the Horde get themselves wipes out because the Alliance leaders are happy to let their people die against such an impossible foe? Yes let's have both factions die so then there's no defence for the world at all!

Yeah... the Horde made the right choice. The Alliance let pride and hate get too them it feels and because of it they lost a leader.

This - "the Horde don't make their choice because the Alliance do and the Alliance don't make theirs based on the Horde" - is completely unsubstantiated.

When you go to fight the same enemy together you are expected to fight together. It is certainly not expected that someone in the middle of a fight will suddenly decide that it's better to retreat and leave the battle. Apparently, that's how the Horde are operating. There's a word for that: cowardice.

[Merixa]

Pretty much this. Demons literally can't die when killed on Azeroth, their souls just go back to the Nether and can reform. Not to mention they have pretty much billions of forces to teleport in as backups.

HOWEVER, in defense of the Alliance leaders....

...we don't actually know if they tried to stay and fight or flee, outside of Genn's outrage suggesting they might have stayed?

The Alliance scenario and Horde scenario end around the same time, when the MASSIVE army of named demon leaders teleports in and approaches. We really have no idea what the Alliance decided to do after that, unless any voice-files I miss suggest otherwise.

I would say from Genns voice files/dialogue after would suggest they stayed. If I rememebr correctly Gul'dan did give the Alliance forces a chance to leave but they attacked still.

Now this could have been avoided if both sides had a flare to send up signalling a lost fight but I guess neither side thought of that trick.

[tristannarutofan]

Plz let her abandon that stupid king so we can get back to war after the Legion is pushed back.
Faction team up is stupid in a game like warcraft and thats the end of it.

Hope u never play strategy games. You'd die so fast. Lol. Temporary alliances are rules of war 101

[Deleted]

Alliance will likely call the retreat as well (simultaneous to the horde) in the cut scene

[Zharikov]

I would say from Genns voice files/dialogue after would suggest they stayed. If I rememebr correctly Gul'dan did give the Alliance forces a chance to leave but they attacked still.

Now this could have been avoided if both sides had a flare to send up signalling a lost fight but I guess neither side thought of that trick.

It wasn't really a co-ordinated attack, to be honest. The Horde and Alliance just both went to defend the Broken Shore independently, and ran into each other across opposite sides of the battlefield near Tirion. They shout back and forth a bit and basically go "yeah lets kill some demons" and then run off on separate paths, the Alliance at the bottom of a ravine, with the Horde at the top of the canyon, both fighting demon armies.

Alliance just unfotunately ran the way Gul'dan was waiting, and he summoned in an even BIGGER army.

[rda]

Alliance will likely call the retreat as well (simultaneous to the horde) in the cut scene

No, they retreat way after, or at least that follows from the dialogs.

[gcsmith]

Haven't we seen stills from the cutscene, with Varian ordering the Gnomes to do something?

[rda]

It wasn't really a co-ordinated attack, to be honest. The Horde and Alliance just both went to defend the Broken Shore independently, and ran into each other across opposite sides of the battlefield near Tirion. They shout back and forth a bit and basically go "yeah lets kill some demons" and then run off on separate paths, the Alliance at the bottom of a ravine, with the Horde at the top of the canyon, both fighting demon armies.

Do you have a source for this? If this is not a coordinated attack, it changes things, but this should be explained explicitly.

It is my impression that the Alliance and the Horde do go together, ie, there're some meetings before, each side knows where each other side is or should be, etc. That's coordinated.

[Deleted]

No, they retreat way after, or at least that follows from the dialogs.

If that's true that's a good base for conflict between the factions. Fits both Genn and Sylvanas' characters well. Didn't expect that from blizzard since they've shown reluctance to leave noticeable differences between the factions on important points.

[arcaneshot]

So, step back and let those demon lords loose on Azeroth? Sometimes retreating is good, fleeing never is, and sometimes you can't retreat if it gives the enemy too big an inch.

Considering the demon lords showing up is what prompts the retreat you're already on the losing end.

[gcsmith]

Considering the demon lords showing up is what prompts the retreat you're already on the losing end.

Really, cus the alliance side shows us charging forwards before fading to black for the cinematic

[gcsmith]

I know that thread, seems Alliance fanboys were wrong.
Yet the Alliance wasn't wiped out. So definitely not the same position.
The Alliance wasn't wiped out.

And they were against demon lords... Now either the Hordes retreat forced them to retreat, or Varian did a lot of damage solo or the alliance is more badass than the horde.

[rda]

I know that thread, seems Alliance fanboys were wrong.

In what way were "the Alliance fanboys" wrong? What did they say that is now untrue?

To your other notes, I only used the words "wiped out" because that's what the post I replied to used. His point was that if the Horde stayed they'd suffer the same fate as the Alliance. He thought that was the wrong way to go.

[munkeyinorbit]

WTF is the Briken Shore

[CaptainV]

So this is basically Ostagar from Dragon Age Origins, with the Horde pulling a Loghain Mac Tyr last minuate because "fuck this shit we cant win".

However, I imagine there is a bit more maliciousness in Sylvanas goal, Varian wanted to "contain" Sylvanas during MoP's ending after all so it maybe some kind of vengance for trying to do just that, since the Alliance during MoP is basically a super power, she would need an opportunity like this to thin their numbers and equal the playing field.

[Deleted]

Plz let her abandon that stupid king so we can get back to war after the Legion is pushed back.
Faction team up is stupid in a game like warcraft and thats the end of it.

No. Faction war is stupid because it means taking away something from one faction and giving it to the other. Actually the whole Horde - Alliance things is pointless now with Blood Elves belonging to the Horde, despite having nothing to do with the core Horde culture and Pandaren belonging to both. Why not just make the two reputation factions that you can join and leave freely and get PVP rewards from them? Like the Grand Companies in FF XIV.

If you and I go into a fight together, then you flee and I get beaten but somehow manage to "flee" after as well, we are kind of in a different position. You are a coward because you fled leaving me alone, and I am not a coward, I stayed my ground, I didn't betray your trust in me in any way. I just got lucky I survived.

Well for one we really don't know how much of the Horde and Alliance assault was coordinated. We really don't. Second, since the Horde assault on the Broken Shore ended with the Warchief on a funeral pyre you can't really say that only the Alliance got beaten up. As far as we know maybe just a handful of horde warriors were left when Sylvanas called the retreat. It is debatable how much good they would have done for Varian and co.

No, they retreat way after, or at least that follows from the dialogs.

From the dialogs of Gen and Jaina. That's like judging the actions of non orcs based on what Garrosh says.

So this is basically Ostagar from Dragon Age Origins, with the Horde pulling a Loghain Mac Tyr last minuate because "fuck this shit we cant win".

However, I imagine there is a bit more maliciousness in Sylvanas goal, Varian wanted to "contain" Sylvanas during MoP's ending after all so it maybe some kind of vengance for trying to do just that, since the Alliance during MoP is basically a super power, she would need an opportunity like this to thin their numbers and equal the playing field.

Yeah don't think so. Vengeance or not, Sylvanas isn't stupid. Last time the Legion tride to invade she was murdered and turned into a Banshee. She wouldn't just kill off commanders and armies out of spite.

Yes it is a lot like what Loghain did, but his army was totally intact, while the Horde suffered just as many losses as the Alliance did.


Well at least I can understand now how Sylvanas got the Warchief position.

[rda]

Well for one we really don't know how much of the Horde and Alliance assault was coordinated. We really don't. ...

From the dialogs of Gen and Jaina. That's like judging the actions of non orcs based on what Garrosh says.

I don't think "it was not coordinated" has any hope of being true.

The Alliance and the Horde surely talked between themselves before going to the Broken Shore, they decided they should go, they decided to do it together. Otherwise it is pretty hard to imagine that they would end up arriving on the same day and even in the same hour. Then they attacked at the same time. I don't know how that could have happened without coordination, that's too much coincidence.

Regarding Genn and Jaina, so far nothing contradicts their words. When something that contradicts what they are saying appears, we will talk.

[Traveler Voltin]

Alliance Fan: the horde should have stayed died with the alliance.

Horde fan: so you want azeroth to have no defense?

Pretty much sums it up