Spreadsheet with Hero counters

[DejaWu]

Created a spreadsheet to use as a to resource to help you decide what Hero you need play, to take care of whoever is going off on their team.

The sheet will be consistently updated throughout the beta as well as going into launch. If you have any ideas on what is or isn't there, what I put in the wrong place, or just disagree with; feel free to PM me here, or use the other contact methods on the sheet.

I am working on a Counter guide to each hero (Bastion is done so far, Tracer is next) for both the Beta and Launch. I hope these guides will help clarify my thoughts on counters, and provide the insight to how the counters best function. So if some choices do not have self-evident logic I hope to clear that up through the guides and feedback from them!

Good luck out there!

Launch day edit: Thank you everyone who contributed to this thread and helped me refine this Spread-sheet. There are too many of you properly thank individually, so thank you all of you for taking the time to argue your thoughts and grow this sheet. Without this discussion It wouldn't have gotten this refined in 2 weeks. Thank you and good luck today at launch!

[Tenjen]

Hmmm, more or less accurate depending on the map, location in that map and the other heroes they have too.

Could also mention team comps that counter but that will get complicated for a spreadsheet.

[DejaWu]

Could also mention team comps that counter but that will get complicated for a spreadsheet.

Agreed. I hadn't quite thought that far. In addition to the sheet, I am trying to get out at least Tracer and Bastion guides (meaning how to counter in this context). But since you brought it up, I think you are right. I made a post here kinda detailing what you are getting at, but not nearly as easy to quickly use as a spreadsheet.

Thank you for the input!

[Endus]

Not sure that Roadhog and Reaper can really be qualified as "hard counters" to each other, like that. I'd argue Roadhog hard counters Reaper; much more health and a bigger-damage gun, so in a straight shootout, he's likely to win, and Roadhog's chain cancels out Reaper's ult (which I've done more than a few times by now). Nothing like hearing "Die, die, HURK, eurgh"

[DejaWu]

Not sure that Roadhog and Reaper can really be qualified as "hard counters" to each other, like that. I'd argue Roadhog hard counters Reaper; much more health and a bigger-damage gun, so in a straight shootout, he's likely to win, and Roadhog's chain cancels out Reaper's ult (which I've done more than a few times by now). Nothing like hearing "Die, die, HURK, eurgh"

Updated to reflect your ideas. I definitely agree. There are definitely some oversights that that needed to get fixed, and I appreciate your pointing it out/input. I also feel like the big one about Roadhog and Reaper is that Whole Hog can get reaper away from you quickly, and either force a wraith form to get in for a kill or just run away.

[Tojara]

I really don't feel that Roadhog actually has hard counters. Yeah he's easy to hit with snipers, but he isn't going to die with a 600 health pool. Played correctly he's usually poking in and out looking for hooks, and keeping his massive health pool high. A lot of heroes can't straight up 1v1 him because he does crazy damage close up and in some instances, he can heal through people doing damage to him if they are up in his face.

I think it's fine however considering he requires people to be in close range. Fantastic at disrupting the majority of ultimate abilities, and essentially requires you to land a hook, which without any followup from teammates, will generally kill people under 300 health in a single combination.

His biggest downside however which I think is what sort of balances him compared to the other defensive characters is that he is in every sense a bullet sponge. He doesn't die, but at the same time, unlike other defensive heroes will feed the opposing team ultimate abilities. Reinhardt has his shield, Winston is fairly mobile, D'va is sort of a bullet sponge but can absorb fire momentarily while also being mobile, and lastly Zarya isn't the best hero to throw damage into, especially if she has her shield up.

Not really sure that Genji hardcounters McCree, I almost think the opposite. Genji generally has to get close, and if McCree lands a flashbang Genji is dead.

[DejaWu]

Not really sure that Genji hardcounters McCree, I almost think the opposite. Genji generally has to get close, and if McCree lands a flashbang Genji is dead.

Thought over this for a bit. For now I definitely agree that McCree should at least be a Soft-Counter to Genji. However I am not sure if he is quite a Hard-counter. I think there is still arguments to be made that Genji has "counter" potential to McCree, but unsure if that warrants him being a soft-counter.

[Very Tired]

The problem with counters is that there isn't a set list and people are deciding after a few days of playing. People are like "X counters Torbjörn's turrets because they can just get out of range and kill it easily." Well if Torbjörn choose to build his turret with a blind spot, he didn't pick the right location. Or Tracer can just zip in and pulse bomb a Bastion. An ult is not a counter to a hero, unless you can seriously have your ult up every time they spawn. Genji only counters Bastion if the Bastion is new and doesn't know to stop firing during the 2 seconds he's reflecting.

[Tryuk]

Thought over this for a bit. For now I definitely agree that McCree should at least be a Soft-Counter to Genji. However I am not sure if he is quite a Hard-counter. I think there is still arguments to be made that Genji has "counter" potential to McCree, but unsure if that warrants him being a soft-counter.

I'd have to agree with Genji being at least a soft counter to McCree. Likewise if the flashbang gets reflected, McCree is probably dead (from my limited experience). Although all it takes is for a good McCree to wait for the deflect to finish

Edit: I guess that wouldn't be a counter, but rather reducing McCree to be a Genji soft counter

[Krille]

Speaking of Reaper, i feel he's a bit overtuned. And it's not about his ulti being overpowered. But his HP/Survivability/Mobility is too damn high, i mean you can go unkillable for several seconds, you can teleport with a short cd and you have 250 hp which is more than most offense heroes. They should probably look at his cds and hp, imo.

[Lothar]

Speaking of Reaper, i feel he's a bit overtuned. And it's not about his ulti being overpowered. But his HP/Survivability/Mobility is too damn high, i mean you can go unkillable for several seconds, you can teleport with a short cd and you have 250 hp which is more than most offense heroes. They should probably look at his cds and hp, imo.

reaper is in a perfect spot, he has a fairly large model so is not too hard to hit, he has to get close to do meaningful damage, his wraithwalk easily kills himself and his teleport takes forever to complete, if anything id say he is a bit too easily countered by anthing with a bit of range.

even his ult is shut down easily if he does it wrong or stupidly.

[Sting]

How do you figure Reaper is a soft counter to Pharah?

[Deleted]

How do you figure Reaper is a soft counter to Pharah?

I d like to know that as well! Most of the time his shots cant reach her or they do minimal dmg due to the aerial distance she keeps.

[Krille]

reaper is in a perfect spot, he has a fairly large model so is not too hard to hit, he has to get close to do meaningful damage, his wraithwalk easily kills himself and his teleport takes forever to complete, if anything id say he is a bit too easily countered by anthing with a bit of range.

even his ult is shut down easily if he does it wrong or stupidly.

Please explain how wraith form is killing him? Well durr, do you want instant teleportation? It's not that long either. His mobility, survivability with both health globes and invulnernability on short cd is ridiculous. He deals great dmg at medium distance and his model isnt that big, check again. I think he's a bit overtuned but not incredibly OP or anything, he has too many toolkits to survive to have 250 hp.

[Huntaer]

What's a soft and hard counter?

[roflwaffle]

right off the bat id probably consider junkrat a hard counter to bastion, or is there something idk?

[Tojara]

right off the bat id probably consider junkrat a hard counter to bastion, or is there something idk?

Not really a hard counter, I'd say more of a soft counter. The grenades he lobs do a decent amount of damage, but have a slow projectile speed. If you notice that Junkrats grenades are coming towards you, you merely need to get up and move to a different position. This forces Junkrat to change his position as well, and during the time of moving he can be vulnerable. Generally Junkrat finds a decent place to lob grenades and you kind of bunker up, while vulnerable, he has a decent amount of health and if you aren't careful you will probably run into a trap trying to find him.

[DejaWu]

What's a soft and hard counter?

Soft counter is someone who has one or two abilities that are generally effective against said hero. Hard counter is when their entire kit counters them, or one or two abilities hard counter them. Generally ultimates are not weighed as heavy as general tool-kit and ability. But ultimates can help counter a strategy/hero.

[Hand Banana]

You have Genji countering waaaaaay too much. How in the world does Genji hard-counter Lucio? No Lucio will die to a Genji that doesn't have his ult ever. Even with his ult a good Lucio can escape if the Genji doesn't finish it quick. Same goes for Mercy. Genji has no burst damage and needs his ult to have much of any killing power outside of Deflect. I will say Genji countering Tracer just makes me giggle.

[DejaWu]

You have Genji countering waaaaaay too much. How in the world does Genji hard-counter Lucio? No Lucio will die to a Genji that doesn't have his ult ever. Even with his ult a good Lucio can escape if the Genji doesn't finish it quick. Same goes for Mercy. Genji has no burst damage and needs his ult to have much of any killing power outside of Deflect. I will say Genji countering Tracer just makes me giggle.

I definitely see your argument for why Genji shouldn't hard counter Lucio but she should at least soft counter. He is very strong against all supports, just based on what he can do with his abilities. But as far as him hard countering tracer, in a world where both players are playing the heroes to their fullest potential, a Tracer does not have the one up over the Genji. Because of deflect, 3 shuriken fan (which is more spammable than his left click), and blade dash all help deal with tracer a lot. Outside of a Tracer sticking a Genji with pulse bomb, a good genji should never die to Tracer. Not to mention tracer cant climb walls very quickly. so again I just dont see a world where a top skill Genji should. But thank you for the feed back!