[Legion] Shadow Priest Discussion

[Aeriel]

There it is! Didn't take as long as I thought it would. Anyway, since you've already got your book of facts in front of you, can you tell me what spec has ever had all of their talents be useful? Can you also tell how many of our talents actually affect our gameplay significantly compared to most other specs

It kind of started last night, but remember that it is only 0911 on the East Coast of the US. So, still early.
@Kretan SHHHH! People will start to think you have "an in" with the developers with promises like that.

[Isentropy]

this actually doesn't make sense, and it's indicative of someone who hasn't played the game at a high level for very long at all. if the spec has no aoe tools at all, it will not be used in cmodes (which are part of the gearing process now), and is very likely to fall completely behind on cleave fights. or do you really think that destro warlocks will be tuned to unviability in single target? you realize they get permanent havoc? this is so much stronger than how shadow scales with multiple targets right now.

Challenge modes are not even close to the same in Legion as they were in MoP or WoD. Mindlessly AoEing is not necessarily what you want to do, depending on what affixes are active at the time. Shadow is not falling behind in cleave at all, multidot is keeping up just fine. There's also plenty of situations where mobs are spread out, and as such cleave is not very useful and multidot is favored again. Burst AoE is also never a requirement for everyone to be able to do equally well, as it caps out rather quick. This is why you usually have a few people focus strictly on burst AoE, while the rest helps but can focus on other DPS aspects otherwise. This does not at all, in any way, mean that your spec isn't viable for any given fight. Shadow's AoE was awful for the entirety of WoD but it never had any impact on how wanted shadow was. No, shadow was not the best. You don't need to be the best in order to be worth bringing to a raid, you need to have a balance within your team. Any guild worth a damn can tell you that shadow when played well had strengths that may not have been entirely unique, but were definitely there. I wonder, at what level do you play the game right now that you're able to make the assessment that's a requirement in order to analyze things properly? You're not in the alpha so you can't be too cutting edge right now. Then again, you claim that Cascade required the multistrike bug fix in order to be better than Halo, so perhaps you're overestimating yourself a little bit here.

[Aeriel]

@snaxattax You are misconstruing Isentropy's comments on AoE. Being weak in AoE (currently that it is nearly nonexistent) is fine if we excel at 1-3 targets. The problem is that we need some sort of AoE that is at least useful and not a hindrance. We do not need to be strong in both ST and AoE, but we should be strong in one while competitive in the other.

If we are "equally strong" in both scenarios, then we are weak compared to other specs for balance. Jack of all, master of none philosophy. Being a master of 1-3 and passable on 4+ is tuned. Currently we are good at 1-3 (with current tuning) and a weak link on 4+.

[Kretan]

It kind of started last night, but remember that it is only 0911 on the East Coast of the US. So, still early.
@Kretan SHHHH! People will start to think you have "an in" with the developers with promises like that.

Haha I laughed pretty hard I won't lie. I don't think a lot of people are interested in balance. They just want to be top dps at all costs. It's kind of like if the commissioner of the NFL chose who played on what team every year.... It doesn't matter what he does he's going to be wrong to everyone.

Thinking more about the ring though...... Maybe this isn't as big of a nerf as I thought. I think it's still going to be really strong for cmode where trash packs might not exceed 4 targets all that often since it spreads one to three more.

- - - Updated - - -

it'll be within 5% of single target, and shadow will be completely useless in aoe.

also the massive ST nerfs have begun. waiting for the lfr trash to say shadow still doesn't need massive aoe mechanics overhaul. this is literally exactly like what happened at end of beta for mop and wod, and in both cases it took an entire expac's worth of incremental buffs for the spec to become anywhere near as effective as mage/hunter/warlock on the bulk of fights.

- - - Updated - - -



shadow has been god status every single alpha/beta. it's just that they have had significant mechanical problems that get overlooked by the average wowtard who can barely add because of numerical overtuning, and then it becomes a problem when shadow gets nerfed into the core of the earth for release.

- - - Updated - - -



this actually doesn't make sense, and it's indicative of someone who hasn't played the game at a high level for very long at all. if the spec has no aoe tools at all, it will not be used in cmodes (which are part of the gearing process now), and is very likely to fall completely behind on cleave fights. or do you really think that destro warlocks will be tuned to unviability in single target? you realize they get permanent havoc? this is so much stronger than how shadow scales with multiple targets right now.

Can you please just make your points without attacking "garbage idots" and "LFR trash"? This discussion would be so much more productive if you left out the pointless attacks.

[Deleted]

Nerfs were expected, i think most people will be upset that other classes weren't just buffed to be in line with Spriest rather than Spriest nerfed to be in line with others, but that is how balancing goes, see how it plays out and keep up the feedback, i think pvp will take a bigger hit from the nerfs so very interested in seeing how people feel about pvp now.

I just hope SoI gets the damage % nerf reverted now that it only works on direct damage, it seems a really meh trait now. Please keep reminding them about this.

The flat 3% shadow damage is also meh, but on the upside we now have 1 less defensive trait (on paper, ignoring that PH was already gone) and gained a damage trait like lots of people wanted, hopefully it gets a little more love though.

Gotta admit i am very disappointed in the ring but keen to see how it plays out now.

[Deleted]

I don't think you were being mean, especially by the standards of "feedback" from the official forums and MMO-C across the majority of specs. Many alpha testers and extremely passionate mains of a class tend to become drama queens with tuning adjustments, or when their class isn't above average at everything (e.g. I saw rogues recently complain about a lack of defensives...?!?)

We need more players like yourself on the Alpha. People who aren't likely to post dramatic reactions and are able to see where a spec fits into the grand scheme of things. I really respected how you defend the idea that Shadow doesn't have to have a decent AoE. The most baffling part is that the same players who shun the devs for class homogenization, are the same ones getting jealous that every other class has more blinks, or more defensives, or more ST/AoE options, etc. Man I would hate to be a dev for WoW because of the sheer number of entitled players.

Thing is, there are a lot of people providing unbiased non-shit feedback. The difference is not everyone tries to be logical on mmo-champion because of how fucking retarded the average user is here, and the average Intelligence of a WoW player in general. Trust me, I tried it on the DK sub-forum a few months ago in alpha, and people still behaved like Goldfish instantly forgetting everything about the class the next day and continuing to shitpost about "MUH MOBILITY AND UTILITY". It's sad, but I'm just saying it how it is, I stopped posting anything because the level of stupidity was actually hurting my brain.

[Shandalar]

It this why shadowpriest was a necessity in TBC, mad good on progress throughout wotlk, good most of cata, gods of dragonsoul?

Not to mention the fact that you were miles ahead of anyone else on cleave fights on alpha, only thing that could compete on 2-3 target fights were DHs which got the shaft aswell.

I expect u arent being serious.

BC shadow was mandatory for the mana battery theme; dps was worst than pure dps; at WotLK, shadow was pure trash until the 3.3 patch, I expect u are trolling when u say "mad good on progress on thorughout wotlk" or u just dont know what are u talking about.

Cata's shadow was good after the mind sear buff and the best spec of dragonsoul; since then, at Pandaria and Draenor = garbage.

[l33t]

I expect u arent being serious.

BC shadow was mandatory for the mana battery theme; dps was worst than pure dps; at WotLK, shadow was pure trash until the 3.3 patch, I expect u are trolling when u say "mad good on progress on thorughout wotlk" or u just dont know what are u talking about.

Cata's shadow was good after the mind sear buff and the best spec of dragonsoul; since then, at Pandaria and Draenor = garbage.

Overexaggerating much, eh? While I do agree with everything you said prior to WoD, in WoD we were far from garbage, ranked pvp and raiding-wise. We were complete and pure garbage in challenge modes though - but only in realm best timer runs.

[Ilir]

See those kind of posts are as stupid as the ones you're complaining about. What's the point ?

Also don't judge one's intelligence based on what they're doing/thinking in a video game... that's a really dumb things to do.

People can be totally ignorant and say stupid things, I do too. But that doesn't make them utterly stupid.

I dunno... people need to chill.

[Aeriel]

Thing is, there are a lot of people providing unbiased non-shit feedback. The difference is not everyone tries to be logical on mmo-champion because of how fucking retarded the average user is here, and the average Intelligence of a WoW player in general. Trust me, I tried it on the DK sub-forum a few months ago in alpha, and people still behaved like Goldfish instantly forgetting everything about the class the next day and continuing to shitpost about "MUH MOBILITY AND UTILITY". It's sad, but I'm just saying it how it is, I stopped posting anything because the level of stupidity was actually hurting my brain.

I gave up on the DK forum during WoD. Lasted two days for Legion.

Honestly this thread is one of the most adult I have seen on here.

[Kretan]

The thing about these effects on pvp is that they only really rebalance where damage comes from.... Pvp got its own tuning buttons in the stat sheet... Sure damage gets nerfed for pve, but the stat sheet then just updates to compensate if necessary.

[Aeriel]

The thing about these effects on pvp is that they only really rebalance where damage comes from.... Pvp got its own tuning buttons in the stat sheet... Sure damage gets nerfed for pve, but the stat sheet then just updates to compensate if necessary.

And legendaries will not work in PvP (subject to change).

I just wish legendaries were more of a "bonus" than a balancing tool. Until you have one, you are sub-parly tuned. If you have poor luck, or get the "weaker" ones first, then you are behind the curve for longer.

Admittedly I am not a fan of the D3 legendary motif for WoW, because they shouldn't be what we are tuned based on having. This is particularly true early on when we can only wear one.

[Kretan]

And legendaries will not work in PvP (subject to change).

I just wish legendaries were more of a "bonus" than a balancing tool. Until you have one, you are sub-parly tuned. If you have poor luck, or get the "weaker" ones first, then you are behind the curve for longer.

Admittedly I am not a fan of the D3 legendary motif for WoW, because they shouldn't be what we are tuned based on having. This is particularly true early on when we can only wear one.

Oh I was more talking about spell nerfs rather than legendaries. Even if you nerf spell coefficients for pve, you could just give more Haste, int, mastery, crit etc to re up damage on the back end.

I think they nerfed the legendary because it could be too strong. I like the idea that they are meaningful bonuses but not balancing points.

[Kilee25]

My perception of shadow throughout the expacs.

Vanilla: Interestingly strong, but very rarely played because they were mired down with no set bonuses and aggro issues. It felt like the class wasn't really treated seriously, both in their design and by other players. It felt very clear that priests were intended to heal in raids, so going shadow kind of felt like something you did out of boredom or rebellion. I remember seeing some people playing shadow in our raids, but they weren't treated very well. Healers often resented them for "playing around" while they were busy being the work-horses in the raid. Other hybrids had the same stigmas - ret paladins, feral druids, etc.. I think pretty much every hybrid class got a bad rap this expac.

BC: Shadow was one of the most important support classes to have in a raid, just behind shamans (for heroism). Their DPS was honestly pretty bad, but no one cared because they were basically a force multiplier. They allowed raids to drop healers. They increased DPS or healing of everyone in their group. Everyone pretty much loved to see shadowpriests (well, at least 2 in the raid).

Wrath: We were weak for most of wrath. Somewhere around mid-TOC (4th raid), we got a buff and became quite a bit stronger, but I spent most of that expansion watching every other class out-scale me more and more as we walked into the next tier. We had a good run in ICC, and the buf during the pre-patch felt like we finally had our day...

Cata: One of the best expacs overall. I felt strong and relevant all expac. We had lost a lot of our utility, but we felt like a true DPS class here. We had good tools (even a DPS cooldown) and could deal with just about any situation.

MoP: It seemed like Bliz was experimenting with the class... I felt like we had a decent start, but as the expansion progressed we got progressively worse...

WoD: Again, it felt like we were being experimented with. Like we'd become some kind of test bed for new ideas. Some things worked, some things didn't. For the most part spells and talents were basically patched at the beginning of each tier so that we didn't become completely irrelevant in raids. This took form by basically tuning the L100 talents and using set bonuses to tweak certain combinations and play styles up and down.

If I look at us on the whole... our shining moments were BC and Cata. I felt that we started declining in MoP and have hit our lowest point in WoD.

In terms of "validity", we have always had a path forward. There's always been at least one combination of talents or something that allowed us to play. I don't think that will change too significantly. The spec will always be playable in some way, and good players will find a way to keep going. But I'm not sure if I can look back in good concience and say the spec/class has always done well. On the whole I'd say it's mostly been weak, with a few highlights here and there. In general, I think of shadowpriests as "underdogs"... a bit of a try-hard class for people who want more complexity and challenge, for no reward other than the satisfaction of feeling like you did something good. I think the game needs a few classes like this and blizzard acknowledges this. Shadow is the class for people who like challenges and think most of the game is boring and too easy...

[Aeriel]

Oh. I misunderstood about pvp.

I am just afraid that they are, or at least will be now that they're available on alpha vendors, balancing points behind the scenes.

The 3 target cap only reinforces that we excel on 1-3 targets. A 5 target cap would feel better I think. There are quite a few instances with 3-5 very short lived adds where that would be useful. Greater than 5, and I can see it becoming OP with VB refresh.

[Ilir]

Oh. I misunderstood about pvp.

I am just afraid that they are, or at least will be now that they're available on alpha vendors, balancing points behind the scenes.

The 3 target cap only reinforces that we excel on 1-3 targets. A 5 target cap would feel better I think. There are quite a few instances with 3-5 very short lived adds where that would be useful. Greater than 5, and I can see it becoming OP with VB refresh.

You won't really be able to refresh dots on 5+ adds tho. Also if they are short lived... the VB refresh is pointless since they'll be dead anyway.

- - - Updated - - -

I think one of the reason it got nerfed is because of the interaction with the 2pc.... imagine having dots on 5+ adds with each ticks giving you insanity... xD

[Aeriel]

You won't really be able to refresh dots on 5+ adds tho. Also if they are short lived... the VB refresh is pointless since they'll be dead anyway.

I meant that you could basically refresh infinitely off one target and constantly spread continuously. I.E. DoTs on main target, and instantly spread to all adds any time that they appear. Skorpyon would be a case where no cap has the potential to be OP, but 3 may prove too few.

I think one of the reason it got nerfed is because of the interaction with the 2pc.... imagine having dots on 5+ adds with each ticks giving you insanity... xD

That would be fixable by setting the spread DoTs as unable to generate insanity, which should be the case anyways with the initial insanity generation.

- - - Updated - - -

On a second thought about the ring: the cap may not be for DPS tuning, but raid survivability. With VT ticking on many adds, there is the potential to out heal the collateral raid damage. At some point there would be a threshold where you could ignore mechanics based on VT's heals. Would this be attainable in current content? I honestly do not know, but it is a different perspective on the cap.

[davesignal]

I think the bottom line that immediate infinite scaling based on number of targets is eminently abusable. The only other spec that has that is Outlaw Rogue with Blade Flurry and, as we've seen, the price they pay for that is being total dogshit on single target.

If the choice is infinite scaling AOE or strong single target, I'll take single target. There's always something worth tunneling DPS on..

[Kretan]

Oh. I misunderstood about pvp.

I am just afraid that they are, or at least will be now that they're available on alpha vendors, balancing points behind the scenes.

The 3 target cap only reinforces that we excel on 1-3 targets. A 5 target cap would feel better I think. There are quite a few instances with 3-5 very short lived adds where that would be useful. Greater than 5, and I can see it becoming OP with VB refresh.

Like it was just stated, having a cap of three sucks for aoe, but it opens the door to be higher single target. Even if it sucks to lose the ring for huge packs, it at least means we can safely be balanced for strong 1-3 with weak 4+. The benefit of being capped at three is that you are capped at a number where a realistic number of mobs will show up frequently. It's not fun to pay the price to be good at 5+ because a lot of time you are being balanced around a number of Mobs that physically are not available to damage. With 1-3 we will always be utilizing our maximum potential

[Aeriel]

Like it was just stated, having a cap of three sucks for aoe, but it opens the door to be higher single target. Even if it sucks to lose the ring for huge packs, it at least means we can safely be balanced for strong 1-3 with weak 4+. The benefit of being capped at three is that you are capped at a number where a realistic number of mobs will show up frequently. It's not fun to pay the price to be good at 5+ because a lot of time you are being balanced around a number of Mobs that physically are not available to damage. With 1-3 we will always be utilizing our maximum potential

Oh I have no problems with being balanced for 1-3 targets with weaker at 4+. I have been saying that for awhile. This goes back to my thoughts that the legendaries should be a bonus. 3 is doable, but difficult without the legendary. With the legendary, we should be to do a little more, but not way more. It's a philosophy/ideology difference more than anything. Just being able to go from 1-3 to 1-5 is what I would consider for a legendary.