Spreadsheet with Hero counters

[Hand Banana]

I definitely see your argument for why Genji shouldn't hard counter Lucio but she should at least soft counter. He is very strong against all supports, just based on what he can do with his abilities. But as far as him hard countering tracer, in a world where both players are playing the heroes to their fullest potential, a Tracer does not have the one up over the Genji. Because of deflect, 3 shuriken fan (which is more spammable than his left click), and blade dash all help deal with tracer a lot. Outside of a Tracer sticking a Genji with pulse bomb, a good genji should never die to Tracer. Not to mention tracer cant climb walls very quickly. so again I just dont see a world where a top skill Genji should. But thank you for the feed back!

Lucio and Mercy (assuming she has a teammate nearby) can escape Genji or get to a position where we can't kill them with little effort since his lack of burst. Tracer can and should be Genji every time. His cds on deflect and blade dash are far too long to deal with tracers damage and he has no other reliable avoidance. She can dodge nearly all of his attacks unless he has aimbot and is point blank while she can easily pepper him.

I'm really not sure Genji counter's anyone outside of perfectly timed deflects (or bad players attacking into it). He is in serious need of some buffs from my point of view; his damage just isn't there.

[DejaWu]

I d like to know that as well! Most of the time his shots cant reach her or they do minimal dmg due to the aerial distance she keeps.

Originally the thought was that while Pharah can get elevation advantage, when she doesn't have it or moving around the sides of the map Reaper can pounce on her with a quick two shotgun shots. However this isnt always the case. This is why i put him as a soft counter because he can flank and dispense of her. But if you dont think this still doesnt qualify as a soft please let me know!

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Lucio and Mercy (assuming she has a teammate nearby) can escape Genji or get to a position where we can't kill them with little effort since his lack of burst. Tracer can and should be Genji every time. His cds on deflect and blade dash are far too long to deal with tracers damage and he has no other reliable avoidance. She can dodge nearly all of his attacks unless he has aimbot and is point blank while she can easily pepper him.

I'm really not sure Genji counter's anyone outside of perfectly timed deflects (or bad players attacking into it). He is in serious need of some buffs from my point of view; his damage just isn't there.

Fair enough. I agree with the mercy point as well. Some this I missed/haven't played enough.

As for Genji against tracer I see your points. But general tool-kit wise he counters tracer with better numbers, should he not still be a soft counter assuming they buff him? I have played a lot of tracer myself, and while I feel like Genji is not in the best spot now I feel like he can still at least win 3-4 of 10 set of duels. I guess my main point right now is do you think its big enough to warrant moving Tracer to soft countering genji, or just leaving it a wash? and the second question is assuming he is actually in a bad spot right now (not trying to say your wrong, but until there is a patch to buff him/more play time to flush out the counters, its a little more up in the air) should he stay a counter of some sort because his tool-kit does have out-play potential/counters to Tracer?

[Huntaer]

Soft counter is someone who has one or two abilities that are generally effective against said hero. Hard counter is when their entire kit counters them, or one or two abilities hard counter them. Generally ultimates are not weighed as heavy as general tool-kit and ability. But ultimates can help counter a strategy/hero.

Alright thanks mate

[Ferrair]

Anyone know if McCree's stun can get through Reinhardt's shield ?

Payload maps are so easy to cheese with Reinhardt.

[Frozenbeef]

Nothing counters bastion, he is so OP :S

[Raetary]

Nothing counters bastion, he is so OP :S

you can easily get him down with hanzo or widowmaker.

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Anyone know if McCree's stun can get through Reinhardt's shield ?

nope, you have to get behind the shield to stun him.

[Deleted]

LoL roadhog counter to Reaper? I dont think so.

[Gurluas]

D.Va doesn't hard counter anything? o.o

[Ferrair]

D.Va doesn't hard counter anything? o.o

I like to kamikaze with D.va, just fly her right into the opposing team and watch them all fly back. Especially fun at Ilios or whatever that map name is, the attack point is right beside a cliff, route 66 too, hilarious when done right.

[Deleted]

Anyone know if McCree's stun can get through Reinhardt's shield ?

Payload maps are so easy to cheese with Reinhardt.

2 ways to stun reinhardt through shield:
1.) Roll behind him
2.) Throw it just above the shield! (yes it works)

[IxilaFA]

Nothing counters bastion, he is so OP :S

Bastion is so easy to counter with a lot of heroes. You don't have to kill him to interrupt him, just get a couple good potshots at him, make him get up to reposition or heal, and then storm in to hold the area he was watching. Outside of turret form Bastion is extremely vulnerable and he needs setup ahead of time to get good position.

I think it's people who blindly run around corners and get caught by Bastion fire that get frustrated by him, but once you know he's there you really shouldn't die to him again.

D.Va doesn't hard counter anything? o.o

I don't know about D.va hard countering anything but she should be list as a soft counter to snipers. She can get in and out of range really easily and I like to use her boost to launch up to sniper nests and force them out of position. Not only that but if you spot a sniper up top you can pin them down with her rapid fire, never need to reload weapons.

[Hand Banana]

Fair enough. I agree with the mercy point as well. Some this I missed/haven't played enough.

As for Genji against tracer I see your points. But general tool-kit wise he counters tracer with better numbers, should he not still be a soft counter assuming they buff him? I have played a lot of tracer myself, and while I feel like Genji is not in the best spot now I feel like he can still at least win 3-4 of 10 set of duels. I guess my main point right now is do you think its big enough to warrant moving Tracer to soft countering genji, or just leaving it a wash? and the second question is assuming he is actually in a bad spot right now (not trying to say your wrong, but until there is a patch to buff him/more play time to flush out the counters, its a little more up in the air) should he stay a counter of some sort because his tool-kit does have out-play potential/counters to Tracer?

I haven't played enough Tracer, but as Genji unless I have my ult available or get some lucky snipes on her Tracer is very difficult to deal with if she is smart and doesn't get too close. I would call it a wash personally. I feel like Genji is a wash with most heroes since its really down to a well-timed or not Deflect most of the time (which is then dependent on your opponent attacking into it). If Genji got a solid damage boost to his primary attacks and maybe a stronger base melee attack he could be in an ok place. Landing a point blank fan of knives only deals like 70 damage, which is 1 pistol shot from Mcree (he is broken though).

[Archmage Alodi]

So uhhh , reaper counters everything?

[DejaWu]

I haven't played enough Tracer, but as Genji unless I have my ult available or get some lucky snipes on her Tracer is very difficult to deal with if she is smart and doesn't get too close. I would call it a wash personally. I feel like Genji is a wash with most heroes since its really down to a well-timed or not Deflect most of the time (which is then dependent on your opponent attacking into it). If Genji got a solid damage boost to his primary attacks and maybe a stronger base melee attack he could be in an ok place. Landing a point blank fan of knives only deals like 70 damage, which is 1 pistol shot from Mcree (he is broken though).

So I guess the question again is, at least for the current time, given that argument/logic do you think its worth keeping him as at least a soft counter to some heroes? Because I do feel like genji as a hero can dominate in a game, especially when you watch someone like Seagull play it.

[Hand Banana]

So I guess the question again is, at least for the current time, given that argument/logic do you think its worth keeping him as at least a soft counter to some heroes? Because I do feel like genji as a hero can dominate in a game, especially when you watch someone like Seagull play it.

Yea I can see a soft counter. He does hard-counter snipers to be sure, but soft-counters are more realistic for him in other areas.

[Explicit Teemo Nudes]

Personally I think Symmetra is a hard counter to Tracer and Reinhardt, but I can see why no one would agree with me :P

[DejaWu]

Yea I can see a soft counter. He does hard-counter snipers to be sure, but soft-counters are more realistic for him in other areas.

Awesome. Thanks for discussing this with me! Really helps iron this out till there is enough hours of pro level play + argumentation one way or another. Ill up it to reflect this discussion.

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Personally I think Symmetra is a hard counter to Tracer and Reinhardt, but I can see why no one would agree with me :P

I definitely want to agree, but because those two do have some counter play she can only be a soft counter

[Jester Joe]

Anyone know if McCree's stun can get through Reinhardt's shield ?

Payload maps are so easy to cheese with Reinhardt.

The only thing that goes through shields are energy based attacks (Ex- Reinhardt's ranged attack, Winston's Tesla gun, Zarya's gun, Symmetra's gun).

I actually don't know about Lucio's though.

[DejaWu]

The only thing that goes through shields are energy based attacks (Ex- Reinhardt's ranged attack, Winston's Tesla gun, Zarya's gun, Symmetra's gun).

I actually don't know about Lucio's though.

Lucio's do not, they are stopped by it.

[Jester Joe]

Lucio's do not, they are stopped by it.

That's what I thought, but it seems weird to think logically since they're definitely energy based. I guess he would be the "Go To" hero for shield counters if he did though.