Why was Central and Southern Africa so underdeveloped?

[sarahtasher]

I'm not going into the cesspool of racism ''but it's not really racism, it's true'' (yeah, I'm sure most racists did not believed in their s...), but prior to modern medecine and an handful of plants from the Americas (and Asia) that proved very pratical and robust, Africa beyond the Sahel was quite hostile to human life, period.

[Spectral]

Let's talk about what this thread is really about, race, and not beat around the bush.

This is a really shallow view of history and anthropology. The question about why civilizations develop and flourish in some areas, but not others is well worth asking and shouldn't be avoided simply because some people can't help but shit on certain ethnicities at every opportunity and others can't help but reflexively defend against anything that sounds remotely "racist" to them.

[Ghâzh]

I'm not going into the cesspool of racism ''but it's not really racism, it's true'' (yeah, I'm sure most racists did not believed in their s...), but prior to modern medecine and an handful of plants from the Americas (and Asia) that proved very pratical and robust, Africa beyond the Sahel was quite hostile to human life, period.

Then what are you saying? You just accused people, having (mostly) reasonable discussion about the subject, of racism but then refuse to explain yourself? Why should there be a taboo about discussing anything? If we can not talk about it how are we supposed to understand it? Racism is about doing or saying something that causes discomfort or inequality to an individual based on it's belonging to a group not personal qualities. You can use the facts wrong but that doesn't make the person who came up with those facts a racist.

[Deleted]

The southern side of Africa doesn't have the easy trade routes provided by the Mediterranean Sea, the North Sea, the Red Sea, the Beijing Gulf etc...

[hrugner]

This isn't uniformly true for IQ tests. Tests have been developed to accommodate less written/sophisticated cultures, focused more heavily on spatial orientation and other tasks that are heavily g-loaded without relying as much on the abstract concepts that we're more familiar with. The findings are basically about the same as those found from more standard IQ tests. In any case, IQ testing tells us something meaningful about cognition.

Your point that it's almost axiomatically true that people from advanced societies will tend to exhibit the traits that are valued in advanced societies is well taken though.


This seems like a good hypothesis for the roots of advanced civilizations and helps explain why the first real nation-states cropped up in the Fertile Crescent and other areas that had great conditions for supporting humanity. What it doesn't do (I think) is inform us about how places that aren't particularly hospitable have wound up fantastically successful after that initial stage of civilizational development. I think the Jones-style emphasis on society-wide intelligence is relevant here.

I wouldn't reject either hypothesis though - these both seem to have explanatory power, in my view.

Jones presents the idea that over all intelligence of a population drives higher quality of life. It's an interesting theory, but given that he reverses the direction of impact of environment on IQ mid way, I have to question it. By maintaining the direction of influence throughout the theory and using it to explain the phenomena of IQ/Quality of life correlation, we would instead see that the healthier a civilization is the more benefits it provides everyone in its population. At that point it goes from interesting theory to something really basic. A healthy civilization engages more of its population's needs and more of its population is capable of supporting the needs of that society. These or causative values though, you can't just fiddle some of the numbers and make others move. If you manually change the IQ, or manually change population investment, you aren't going to improve quality of life.

As for the fantastically successful late starters: Getting a boost of civilization without needing to go through the population dense early stages avoids something you see in all sorts of growing populations. Urban decay was an idea created to explain the impact of suburbs moving cash away from industrial centers leaving downtown areas to fill with the poor and disenfranchised, but you can see it in other places. We talk about power vacuums in war, and commercial vacuums when a walmart pulls up stakes in a small town. A society skipping that first dense step can avoid the vacuum left behind when their communication and force capabilities are advanced enough to no longer require the dense population. Remember, we're working with areas here and you don't need too much of a push up in D or down in A to radically change how well you can govern.

I'm skipping the potential problems of signal/noise when your P overwhelms your D since that's a problem for advanced civilizations.

[Raldazzar]

No you did not imply that. Your message did not meant ''they had balls for giving up nuclear weapons'' unless a few critical words are added... A quote by Nazi war criminal, incidentally, does not help at not looking racist.

I think I know what my message meant it seemed rather clear to me, I'd insult you again, but evidently it upsets your delicate sensibilities.. grow up. and learn to read properly.

[sarahtasher]

Then what are you saying? You just accused people, having (mostly) reasonable discussion about the subject, of racism but then refuse to explain yourself? Why should there be a taboo about discussing anything? If we can not talk about it how are we supposed to understand it? Racism is about doing or saying something that causes discomfort or inequality to an individual based on it's belonging to a group not personal qualities. You can use the facts wrong but that doesn't make the person who came up with those facts a racist.

Very simple. ''I'm not going against/arguing with the ''IQ+African Genetics''. I'm sticking to endemic diseases and trade ressources.

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I think I know what my message meant it seemed rather clear to me, I'd insult you again, but evidently it upsets your delicate sensibilities.. grow up. and learn to read properly.

Once again, when someone say ''using a Nazi quote does not help remove the impression of being a tad racist'', it does not means being ''too sensible'', it means being able to read.

[Simulacrum]

Basically why everything south of the Congo was so underdeveloped for such a long time.

Everything imported to that region died from the climate there. Including the white men who came to conquer it. Took 'em a while to develop technology and medicine to the point where going there wasn't a straight-up death sentence and you could finally start importing civilization to the area. And natives generally don't "import civilization" on their own, since they just see "civilization" as some hostile, alien culture that wants to subvert theirs. Which it kind of is, so...

[Yunru]

They mostly didnt want to develop themself. Simply, they had no guide willing to do that for them.
Think of them like the hippies -- no war, just making kids and eating food. (also party)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippie
Their fights looked more like dancing and trying to intimidate the other side (but they never fought).

[In Ogres We Trust]

Many civilizations existed throughout Africa. North African Berber Kingdoms, Islamic West African Empires and East African Kingdoms that advanced due to their trade with other African nations as well as the Arabian Peninsula, Indian Subcontinent as well as China and by extension Europe.

However, Central and Southern Africa have never had significant empires. I would imagine this is due to geography and a lack of agriculture.

Even when bananas made it to those parts and states started to form, they were thousands of years behind the rest of Afro-Eurasia.

What do you think?

EDIT: This has nothing to do with Sub-Saharan (Black) Africans, because as I previously mentioned, there were quite a few Sub-Saharan civilizations. I'm simply asking why the populations living geographically south from the Congo is so underdeveloped compared to the rest of Afro-Eurasia and even many Mesoamerican civilizations.

Because the native populations within the region have smaller brains, smaller frontal lobes, lower IQs, less impulse control, psychopathic tendencies, and a lack of long-term planning, etc. that culminated in a series of societies that are barely advanced past the hunter-gatherer stage of existence. Here's a quote from James Watson, the Nobel Prize winning scientist for his work on mapping the human genome:

"[I am] inherently gloomy about the prospect of Africa [because] all our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours—whereas all the testing says not really." He went on to say that despite the desire that all human beings should be equal, 'people who have to deal with black employees find this not true.'"

Anything else?

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They were rather cut off from the rest of the world until the Europeans began sailing their shores. The entire world is heavily influenced by the discoveries of the collective peoples. For Europe, North Africa, and most of Asia it was spread rather quickly due to the popular trade routes connecting them all to each other. However Central and Southern Africa have a fast network of jungles and rainforests to isolate themselves along with the sizable sailing distance. It's similar to why the Americas were behind in technology compared to the old world.

Or you could just accept that the races developed in different climates, and as a result, they have different physical and psychological averages in most areas, e.g. IQ, long-term planning, impulse control, brain development, average strength, average speed, lung capacity, etc.. However, in order for that to happen, you would have to admit that race exists.

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Central and Southern Africa never had any large political entities, so kingdoms failed to develop. Then you had the slave trade take over from the 15th through the 19th centuries, followed up by colonialism from distant countries.

Africa in the Modern Era:





Africa in the Past:



Europe in the Modern Era:



Europe in the Classical Era:



P.S. Even the Ancient Egyptians considered the areas south of the Sahara to be worthless, and I won't even begin to touch on the disdain by the Arabs for the region as well as the local populations.

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Lionel Walter Rothschild (1868-1937), 2nd Baron Rothschild, with his famed zebra carriage, which he frequently drove through London. Zebras have been successfully tamed only rarely.

Hard, but not impossible to tame.



That book is horrible.

http://www.livinganthropologically.c...rms-and-steel/
https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/...uns_germs_and/
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAnthropo...thropological/

Yes, Guns, Germs, and Steel is a substandard book that has been thoroughly repudiated.

[Deleted]

Once again, when someone say ''using a Nazi quote does not help remove the impression of being a tad racist'', it does not means being ''too sensible'', it means being able to read.

There is nothing wrong with quoting a Nazi - Just because you quote someone does not mean you have to agree with someone, or indeed agree with the statement proffered.
And even if you quote a nazi, agree with his statement, Thats still not automatically bad.

[sarahtasher]

For the poster that talk about race...he does know that the animals on the picture can't produce viable offpsrings with horses (hint : different races) while even the ethnic groups routinely insulted as ''inferior subuman vermin with low IQ'' have no issue whatsoever having kids with ''100% pure Aryan supermen'' ? (hint : not a race) And please, please, please explain me how a post advocating that there are races and that of course the ''stoopid africans'' are the inferior one is not racist (Oh, let me guess : ''it's not racist kauze it's true, stoopid SJW'')

BTW, kudos to mocking Africans for using human waste as fertilizer. Of all the possible things to mock people about and call them subhuman, this is truly the icing on the cake. I especially love the assumption that human waste was not used for the same purpose. Hint : to what concept the name of Vespasian is associated ?

[Deleted]

I would think that it's the same reason as to why there are still tribes out there that know nothing about what's past their horizon.
Their world simply is too small.
As an abstract example the probability of someone to invent the wheel is about 10 times higher in a group of 100 people than it is in a group of 10.
All of the technologie you use has been created by someone else so if you where as secluded as they are you would still go to bed when the sun goes down.

That's merely a guess though and I would really like to know the true reason as to why that is but we won't find it here on this forum.

There is nothing wrong with quoting a Nazi - Just because you quote someone does not mean you have to agree with someone, or indeed agree with the statement proffered.
And even if you quote a nazi, agree with his statement, Thats still not automatically bad.

You mean if Hitler liked art liking art does not make you a abd person? Sacrebleu!

[Forogil]

For the poster that talk about race...he does know that the animals on the picture can't produce viable offpsrings with horses (hint : different races) while even the ethnic groups routinely insulted as ''inferior subuman vermin with low IQ'' have no issue whatsoever having kids with ''100% pure Aryan supermen'' ? (hint : not a race)

Actually races in biology were within species (seems it is no longer used) - so different races can have viable offspring; it's just that the races normally don't interbreed for some reason.

Still does not excuse racism.

[sarahtasher]

Actually races in biology were within species (seems it is no longer used) - so different races can have viable offspring; it's just that the races normally don't interbreed for some reason.

Still does not excuse racism.

Who said that ''races'' can't interbreed ? CSA planters before summoning to the bedroom their house servants ?

BTW, mocking people using the drivel spinned by Gobineau is not ''being triggered'' : it's calling quackery quackery. To paraphrase Clemenceau, you find that gig about inferior and superior races fine and danty when your intellectuals place you as the superior, until you realize that you are labelled as ''subhuman vermin that have to submit or die'' by someone else.

[Deleted]

Who said that ''races'' can't interbreed ? CSA planters before summoning to the bedroom their house servants ?

plenty of subspecies can, but do not, breed together.

[Spectral]

For the poster that talk about race...he does know that the animals on the picture can't produce viable offpsrings with horses (hint : different races) while even the ethnic groups routinely insulted as ''inferior subuman vermin with low IQ'' have no issue whatsoever having kids with ''100% pure Aryan supermen'' ? (hint : not a race) And please, please, please explain me how a post advocating that there are races and that of course the ''stoopid africans'' are the inferior one is not racist (Oh, let me guess : ''it's not racist kauze it's true, stoopid SJW'')

Here's something to try - for just one thread, turn off the Racist Alarm in your head. If something seems racist, even if you're pretty sure it's racist, just address it from a factual standpoint without immediately declaring it racist.

Also, a Ctrl-F of the things that you have in quotes above reveals that you're the only one using these phrases. No one else is talking about supermen or stupid Africans. No one's calling anyone subhuman. Settle down. Dial that Racism Alarm back just a bit and allow yourself to engage civilly with those evil racists for just a moment.

[Forogil]

Yes, Guns, Germs, and Steel is a substandard book that has been thoroughly repudiated.

Except the links don't prove that - and I don't see you offering any counter-explanation, more than a randomly appearing racial superiority.

And James Watson co-discovered DNA - he didn't get nobel prize for mapping the human genome.

[sarahtasher]

Here's something to try - for just one thread, turn off the Racist Alarm in your head. If something seems racist, even if you're pretty sure it's racist, just address it from a factual standpoint without immediately declaring it racist.

Also, a Ctrl-F of the things that you have in quotes above reveals that you're the only one using these phrases. No one else is talking about supermen or stupid Africans. No one's calling anyone subhuman. Settle down. Dial that Racism Alarm back just a bit and allow yourself to engage civilly with those evil racists for just a moment.

Because the native populations within the region have smaller brains, smaller frontal lobes, lower IQs, less impulse control, psychopathic tendencies, and a lack of long-term planning, etc. that culminated in a series of societies that are barely advanced past the hunter-gatherer stage of existence. Here's a quote from James Watson, the Nobel Prize winning scientist for his work on mapping the human genome:

Glowing praise here. Please tell me what this means.

[Spectral]

Because the native populations within the region have smaller brains, smaller frontal lobes, lower IQs, less impulse control, psychopathic tendencies, and a lack of long-term planning, etc. that culminated in a series of societies that are barely advanced past the hunter-gatherer stage of existence. Here's a quote from James Watson, the Nobel Prize winning scientist for his work on mapping the human genome:

Glowing praise here. Please tell me what this means.

Give my suggestion a try - just try out calmly addressing specific claims and having a conversation without exaggerating anything he said. It's actually pretty gratifying.