[LEGION] Brewmaster Discussion

[keqe]

The zen med one can be useful we we ever encounter stuff like Mannoroth again. As I said it is extremely situational, but can potentially be the most useful of the bunch.

Also, maybe the GotO bug is caused by the buggy scaling that happens in alpha dungeons? It might screw up the formula.

[v1perz53]

A flat "recuce damage taken by x for y sec" is may not really interesting, but we are the only tank without a short time, short CD, instant and especially real damage reduce.
Tanks just need at least one spell like that.
You can use ISB as a "reduce", yes, but what is with armory piercing and stagger ignoring spells like Mannoroth's Glaive Thrust? Will we getting crushed without external? There was still no answer to this question from blizzard.

I definitely agree that BrM has always lacked a nice short time short CD DR cooldown, and that we need one, though I never expected it to come in the form of the artifact, and would prefer it doesn't. Though the armor piercing/stagger ignoring damage is definitely an issue, but can easily be handled by, well, not having such effects if we don't have an answer to them. With the current design of BrM ISB pretty much is our small CD, and they need to recognize that and make sure it can be used in all situations where it is vital for it to work. Now, I am not confident they will do that, and I would prefer some kind of DR honestly but things could theoretically work without one as long as they design things with that in mind.

I definitely think we need an answer to all situations though and no tank should ever REQUIRE an external to survive when other tanks don't.

[Deleted]

Now, I am not confident they will do that, and I would prefer some kind of DR honestly but things could theoretically work without one as long as they design things with that in mind.

I agree, but all of us have seen HFC and Mannoroth.
We are the only tank without a big and static reduction for Glaive Comp if we have to taunt the 3rd cast. If we take the Thrust > Massive Blast comp there is nearly no Problem (thank you Resolve), but the ones without are...Ouch. Other Tanks have no Problem with the Comb, because they allways reduce the damage by 40%++ and/or have a huge amount of health to compensate. We can be lucky and take 0 damage by Thrust ofc, but unexpected things happen often.
Two weeks ago i was completey destroyed by Manno M in less then 0.3 seconds. Had 100% HP (~700k) with "normal" Guard (~250k)...Thrust brought me down to 25%, didn't dodge the following Meleehit > Dead Monk x.x

[stross01]

I agree, but all of us have seen HFC and Mannoroth.
We are the only tank without a big and static reduction for Glaive Comp if we have to taunt the 3rd cast. If we take the Thrust > Massive Blast comp there is nearly no Problem (thank you Resolve), but the ones without are...Ouch. Other Tanks have no Problem with the Comb, because they allways reduce the damage by 40%++ and/or have a huge amount of health to compensate. We can be lucky and take 0 damage by Thrust ofc, but unexpected things happen often.
Two weeks ago i was completey destroyed by Manno M in less then 0.3 seconds. Had 100% HP (~700k) with "normal" Guard (~250k)...Thrust brought me down to 25%, didn't dodge the following Meleehit > Dead Monk x.x

Is this the death you're talking about?

[swissarmywolf]

i was hoping to try something different in legion and was looking into brewmaster, but from what i can tell from alpha (i don't have access) their mitigation is down right atrocious so can someone correct me if i get any of the following details wrong

going to ignore secondary stats because tanks should scale approximately equal with gear (haha right?)

so the most basic comparisons brewmasters have
- leather+base stagger+brews+ gift of the ox

-base stagger prevents no damage unless you use brews...so see brew usage below
-gift of the ox spawn 1/health bar and heal 10% of a health bar so effectively 10% dr

and now brews... its been a long time since highschool and math formulas etc so i went with a visual representation
asumming you're taking 1000 dps evenly over 1 second intervals

1s 2s 3s 4s 5s 6s 7s 8s 9s 10s

purify every 10 seconds
650 35 35 35 35 35 35 35 35 35 {35}
650 35 35 35 35 35 35 35 35 {35 35}
650 35 35 35 35 35 35 35 {35 35 35}
650 35 35 35 35 35 35 {35 35 35 35}
650 35 35 35 35 35 {35 35 35 35 35}
650 35 35 35 35 {35 35 35 35 35 35}
650 35 35 35 {35 35 35 35 35 35 35}
650 35 35 {35 35 35 35 35 35 35 35}
650 35 {35 35 35 35 35 35 35 35 35}
650 {35 35 35 35 35 35 35 35 35 35}
[ 1925 ]
962.5 damage purified or ~10% dr for 6 brews a minute



purify after 4 seconds of regular damage and 6 seconds under ironbrew

650 35 35 35 35 35 35 35 35 35 {35}
650 35 35 35 35 35 35 35 35 {35 35}
650 35 35 35 35 35 35 35 {35 35 35}
650 35 35 35 35 35 35 {35 35 35 35}
250 75 75 75 75 75 {75 75 75 75 75}
250 75 75 75 75 {75 75 75 75 75 75}
250 75 75 75 {75 75 75 75 75 75 75}
250 75 75 {75 75 75 75 75 75 75 75}
250 75 {75 75 75 75 75 75 75 75 75}
250 {75 75 75 75 75 75 75 75 75 75}
[ 3725 ]
1862.5 damage purified for ~19% damage reduction for 12 brews a minute



just the 6 seconds under active mitigation

250 75 75 75 75 75 {75 75 75 75 75}
250 75 75 75 75 {75 75 75 75 75 75}
250 75 75 75 {75 75 75 75 75 75 75}
250 75 75 {75 75 75 75 75 75 75 75}
250 75 {75 75 75 75 75 75 75 75 75}
250 {75 75 75 75 75 75 75 75 75 75}
[ 3375 ]
1687.5 damage purified for 28% damage reduction over 6 seconds for 2 brews
have not done the math for 2 brews every 6 seconds for a minute but some quick head math says about 31% damage reduction for perma ironbrew and purify every 6 seconds for 20 brew charges a minute


purify every 5 seconds no ironbrew
650 35 35 35 35 {35 35 35 35 35 35}
650 35 35 35 {35 35 35 35 35 35 35}
650 35 35 {35 35 35 35 35 35 35 35}
650 35 {35 35 35 35 35 35 35 35 35}
650 {35 35 35 35 35 35 35 35 35 35}
[ 1400 ]
650 35 35 35 35 {35 35 35 35 35 35}
650 35 35 35 {35 35 35 35 35 35 35}
650 35 35 {35 35 35 35 35 35 35 35}
650 35 {35 35 35 35 35 35 35 35 35}
650 {35 35 35 35 35 35 35 35 35 35}
[ 1662 ]
visual representation a bit off but you purify about 831 damage every 5 seconds for ~17% damage reduction over 1 minute for 12 brews

and of corse all ironbrew and 0 purify effectivly nets 0 damage reduction



from what i can tell brewmasters are reporting about 10 brews/min on alpha so brewmasters have a whopping 10% (ox) + ~17% (ironbrew and purify used in combination for greatest effect) + leather?

last time i checked 27% dr only covers the difference between leather and plate+shield
so brewmasters using all their active mitigation take more damage than a warrior using 0 buttons?

-edit (number tables align to left i guess visual representation went straight out the window, numbers should still be correct though)
-edit 2 large numbers are initial hits for 1000 damage after stagger, small numbers are stagger ticks every second for 10 seconds
small numbers in brackets is the damage of each hit that gets purified

[stross01]

i was hoping to try something different in legion and was looking into brewmaster, but from what i can tell from alpha (i don't have access) their mitigation is down right atrocious so can someone correct me if i get any of the following details wrong

going to ignore secondary stats because tanks should scale approximately equal with gear (haha right?)

Nobody is quite sure how to duplicate the scenario Celestalon described. I certainly cannot do it.

He thinks that when you get to 30%, you hit Ironskin Brew to stop incoming damage (it doesn't), hit Purifying Brew to get rid of the threatening damage (it doesn't), and pick up the healing orbs to heal yourself for the damage you've already taken (they aren't there most of the time).

His scenario can come true, but it's about a 90% fail rate because of various problems. Purifying Brew being 50% is most of it, the 'chance' to spawn orbs really kills the healing most of the time, and the recast on the brews makes this scenario inapplicable after the first instance of it. You're literally out of brews and in a constant state of near-death or already-dead soon into the encounter. This is only true of dungeons, solo, pvp, and quest content. You're pretty monstrous in a raid setting if you have max artifact and max gear, but at any point before that, you're a stain on the floor.

There's a chance you could lose to a rare mob 1v1. You could have less healing than every other tank, including a warrior. All it would take is a troll warrior with a parry followed by a Shockwave to get outhealed.

[Mokuna]

Played the new build a bunch today and have to say it feels way better with expel harm and the buffed healing, i went full crit and the selfhealing was really high with gift of the mists, the selfhealing is high enough you can sit at 50-60% hp with ISB and expel harm to full when in danger (what celestalon said but just wasn't possible in the last build), the only real negative point is expel harm takes every orb, if you only need 2 to be topped off but there are 5 around they'll be wasted, and it's a shame because it wouldn't do that if you walked on them

The new flaming keg feels weak, 1 hit mitigated isn't that much at all, but it's basically an immune so it can save you or fill mitigation gaps
Brewmasters are still lacking a cd, having only fortifying brew (which on top of that is a 5 minutes cd) doesn't feel good enough, and healing elixirs feels too powerful to pick a nerfed dampen/diffuse over it

Damage got buffed a lot , probably a bit too much, the aoe damage is silly (but that's the case for most tanks right now), it's really likely to get nerfed back
Special delivery is still underwhelming (doesn't matter how hard it hits, 30% chance to activate is too random), niuazo still does irrelevant damage so rjw is still the go to even on single target, which doesn't feel right

After some testing crit seems to be the strongest stat, at least in dungeons, but probably in raids too since mastery and haste don't feel that great for mitigation at this level of gear

Overall the class is playable right now, still has some issues but it feels way better

[Piwielle]

Two weeks ago i was completey destroyed by Manno M in less then 0.3 seconds. Had 100% HP (~700k) with "normal" Guard (~250k)...Thrust brought me down to 25%, didn't dodge the following Meleehit > Dead Monk x.x

It's kinda of off topic, but for that specific death, at the end of the glaive thrust strafe around, and gotO will top you up before the next melee anyway.

[porubezhnik]

Two weeks ago i was completey destroyed by Manno M in less then 0.3 seconds. Had 100% HP (~700k) with "normal" Guard (~250k)...Thrust brought me down to 25%, didn't dodge the following Meleehit > Dead Monk x.x

Why you use Guard before glaive? 700k is enough to soak glaive unguarded, and immediately after hit you have 600k+ guard and full hp after 1-2 EH. Be reactive.

[Deleted]

It's kinda of off topic, but for that specific death, at the end of the glaive thrust strafe around, and gotO will top you up before the next melee anyway.

I know, but the pull was already wasted by disconnects from half of the raid. Ox orbs may had save me, but it was just an example of bad design and the problem of getting killed by bad rng.

Why you use Guard before glaive? 700k is enough to soak glaive unguarded, and immediately after hit you have 600k+ guard and full hp after 1-2 EH. Be reactive.

Did you ever pull Mythic Mannoroth? Glaive Thrust did 690k DMG and can only be reduced with Absorbs, Versatility and flat reduce cooldowns.
With 744 GS i'm on 694k HP and 5% Versa (raidbuffed).
We only have 3 heal, and non of them is stacking absorb on the Offtank.
So, with bad luck (and 100% HP) i'm dropping down to 100 - ((690*0.975)/694*100) = 3,1%...With that low percent of HP every single spell (or if you are not topped because of im spawn, emp. Felseeker, soaking Wrath, Felstorm,...) will kill you.
Without WUE (or an external for every second Comp) you have to pre Guard or you have to cross your fingers and pray.

[porubezhnik]

Did you ever pull Mythic Mannoroth?

Yes, I did. Use WUE, and heal youself. With some amount of brain there is no difficulties in soaking one unguarded glaive. Just try.

[Evolved]

Yes, I did. Use WUE, and heal youself. With some amount of brain there is no difficulties in soaking one unguarded glaive. Just try.

Taking unguarded Glaive on purpose is a bad idea. Why would you try?

I did a couple heroics earlier and survivability felt ok. EH orb pickup was pretty handy. I still think the artifact ability is way too weak. As long as Rage of the Sleeper exists in it's current form, everything else will continue to seem sad by comparison.

[porubezhnik]

Taking unguarded Glaive on purpose is a bad idea. Why would you try?

Because when you are offtank, you usually have ~zero resolve, so using guard at this resolve level is just wasting it. After glaive you have 250%+ and its a perfect time to guarding.

[Julmara]

you can get some resolve from the infernals or use zen med

[porubezhnik]

you can get some resolve from the infernals or use zen med

AFAIR there is no active infernals at last phase. Zen med is usually on cd at that time - used for soaking stacks from healer.
Anyway, there is no sense in this discussion - I know, that I can take unguarded glaive and survive (because I did this before), and this knowledge is enough for me

[Deleted]

AFAIR there is no active infernals at last phase. Zen med is usually on cd at that time - used for soaking stacks from healer.
Anyway, there is no sense in this discussion - I know, that I can take unguarded glaive and survive (because I did this before), and this knowledge is enough for me

This tbh, guard + expel after the glaive and with your gear there is simply no way ur gonna die.

[Julmara]

well we certainly doing different strats on mannoroth mythic

[keqe]

Use WUE

Well discussing the glaive combo with WuE is pointles when WuE makes it completely trivial.

[Inuyaki]

So why not just use it then?
Ego? So the boss dies 2seconds faster? Except every tenth try where it doesn't die because you did and waste 10-15min extra minutes on the boss?

[keqe]

So why not just use it then?
Ego? So the boss dies 2seconds faster? Except every tenth try where it doesn't die because you did and waste 10-15min extra minutes on the boss?

Because with planning it is possible to do it without using it with zero risk. Some players want to do their absolute best, regardless if it "matters".

You say ego, I say laziness. Works both ways.