Spreadsheet with Hero counters

[DejaWu]

That's what I thought, but it seems weird to think logically since they're definitely energy based. I guess he would be the "Go To" hero for shield counters if he did though.

Yeah, I agree with that. I really like where Lucio is at, he is both really fun to play and can really carry a game.

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I don't know about D.va hard countering anything but she should be list as a soft counter to snipers. She can get in and out of range really easily and I like to use her boost to launch up to sniper nests and force them out of position. Not only that but if you spot a sniper up top you can pin them down with her rapid fire, never need to reload weapons.

Have not played as much D.Va as I should have but this is a really good point, sorry I missed it. I definitely see her being able to have a similar effect to Winston on back liners. Thank you for idea!

[IxilaFA]

Yeah, I agree with that. I really like where Lucio is at, he is both really fun to play and can really carry a game.

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Have not played as much D.Va as I should have but this is a really good point, sorry I missed it. I definitely see her being able to have a similar effect to Winston on back liners. Thank you for idea!

Yeah the unfortunate thing about a lot of people who play D.va is they don't use her charge enough. That's the primary reason she can be so difficult to deal with. I see people charging as her to get in position and to use her ultimate and that's about it. When I play her I am charging around the point pretty much on cooldown, knocking people out of position, getting out of range after I take a couple hits, and running from ultimates.

There are a couple really good maps where I have held the point and never died the entire fight just because I had a pocket healer and nobody could knock me out of position.

[Better]

You have Tracer and Zarya both hard countering each other, which isn't generally how a hard counter would work. I also feel like you just threw Bastion as a hard counter for pretty much every healer even though he's really not hard to force to move, or even outright kill as Lucio, and Mercy just flies right passed his killzone most of the time. It also feels like any time you have a sniper as a counter, you put both of them there, even though someone like Junkrat actually has a pretty easy time with Hanzo in my experience.

[Raone]

Winston does not counter Bastion in any way shape or form. Bastion can kill the Winston's shield and him before Winston can kill Bastion.

[willemh]

Same with reaper, he doesn't counter bastion in all situations. Tried to kill a bastion that was stuck in a corner 5 times today as a reaper, shadowstepped right ontop of him and instantly started shooting, yet he killed me before I killed him every single time. In that position he just was not killable for my reaper.

[DejaWu]

You have Tracer and Zarya both hard countering each other, which isn't generally how a hard counter would work. I also feel like you just threw Bastion as a hard counter for pretty much every healer even though he's really not hard to force to move, or even outright kill as Lucio, and Mercy just flies right passed his killzone most of the time. It also feels like any time you have a sniper as a counter, you put both of them there, even though someone like Junkrat actually has a pretty easy time with Hanzo in my experience.

For Zarya and Tracer, apologize for the blatant miss. I have fixed that so they both soft counter each-other. Both have some out-play potential towards the other, but might just be a complete wash and not count as a soft counter. With the Bastion, I felt as though Bastion does not actually hard counter any Hero and that felt wrong, so I did put him as a "counter" to healers because of his ability to shred through their healing and the healers themselves. But outside of that, I guess I fail to see Bastion hard countering anyone, but mainly a hard counter to a strategy. As for the snipers, I definitely think they are a few too many places but my initial thought was to make sure I over covered than under-covered. I do feel like snipers in this game have a very strong advantage against quite a few heroes, but if you have more specifics I would very much welcome them. Between Hanzo and Junkrat, assuming both playing at the highest skill, i still feel like a Hanzo should have the edge. Yes Junkrat can spam him, but Hanzo can avoid it/spam back with Scatter and has a higher chance of getting the kill at long range. Let me know what you think, the feed back is what makes this sheet useful.

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Winston does not counter Bastion in any way shape or form. Bastion can kill the Winston's shield and him before Winston can kill Bastion.

If you are assuming the Winston leaps straight in. The reason he is a soft counter is because Winston has the ability to use the map to get into better angles and pounce/surprise the Bastion. Yes the best way to deal with him is snipers and spam, but Winston can offer a large window of opportunity of he gets in from the side, drops barrier and starts juking his heart out till leap is back up.

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Same with reaper, he doesn't counter bastion in all situations. Tried to kill a bastion that was stuck in a corner 5 times today as a reaper, shadowstepped right ontop of him and instantly started shooting, yet he killed me before I killed him every single time. In that position he just was not killable for my reaper.

A hard counter doesn't have to necessarily win 10 of 10 times, if you can successfully deal with a hero using your tool kit 7 - 8 + times that is a decent qualifier. However your point still holds a lot of weight. Maybe because Reaper is limited to his countering, or maybe its more map dependent. Something I want to take into account eventually/in my guides is difficulty of the counter and what maps it works best. That is why sometimes this list may have heroes that people disagree with and others agree. The map changes how a Hero functions and how they function against another hero, not completely but enough. Do you think that he should be downgraded to soft-counter? and the other question is assuming "high skill" on the Reaper and bastion, which do you still think has the upper hand? Thanks for your input!

[Ealyssa]

Mei surely counter Tracer, more than tracer counter Mei.

[DejaWu]

Mei surely counter Tracer, more than tracer counter Mei.

I think it should slightly favor Tracer or be a wash, which is why I put her as a soft counter. You are 100% right in that Mei's toolkit does help limit mobility and catch out targets, a Tracer playing at the highest level shouldn't get frozen by a Mei most of their encounters. Because rewind removes all the built up slow, and a double blink completely clears Mei's freeze beam. If you have any specific thoughts on why Mei should be able to deal with this/how it should play out at the heroes highest potential let me know!

[Mormolyce]

I feel like D.Va is a hard counter to Widowmaker rather than Widowmaker soft countering her. You charge her sniper nest with shield up and mash her face. Best she can do is rope out of there, if it's off CD.

D.Va also hard counters Mercy - you chase her and she can't escape, heal or defend herself.

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Mei surely counter Tracer, more than tracer counter Mei.

I dunno, Tracer has one of the best escapes to freeze beam.

[DejaWu]

I feel like D.Va is a hard counter to Widowmaker rather than Widowmaker soft countering her. You charge her sniper nest with shield up and mash her face. Best she can do is rope out of there, if it's off CD.

D.Va also hard counters Mercy - you chase her and she can't escape, heal or defend herself.

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I dunno, Tracer has one of the best escapes to freeze beam.

I definitely can see that. My logic was Widow's ability to pepper/soften a D.Va before she is able to get in to close. She cant use her defense matrix while boosting, and you could get in 1 full charge shot. With grapple and venommine, you have room to kite and such. But if any thing I am arguing has any counter weight I guess it would reduce D.Va to a soft counter to Widow. But I think your argument is very true so Lemme know what you think about what my thoughts where!

As for Tracer I removed her for now as a soft counter and put Mei as a Soft counter to Tracer. My reasoning was that Mei should never really leave her teammates and allow herself to be isolated in that condition. This allows her freezing beam to assist allies, and yes she has recall to get out or a double blink, but Mei is a great hero to force a usage of it. You can also use Ice wall to limit her mobility.

[Twinkelle]

I'd say that Mei counters Roadhog way more than the two snipers. Her slowing gun paired with his zero mobility really makes for some nasty experiences.

The problem with the snipers vs. the 'Hog is that once they've made the shot (and not killed him) they've revealed themselves to his now awaiting hook. All he needs to do is heal and flank.

[Deleted]

I'd say that Mei counters Roadhog way more than the two snipers. Her slowing gun paired with his zero mobility really makes for some nasty experiences.

The problem with the snipers vs. the 'Hog is that once they've made the shot (and not killed him) they've revealed themselves to his now awaiting hook. All he needs to do is heal and flank.

I've played roadhog alot and sniper isn't much of a problem. They cant kill you with a headshot and you just heal up behind nearest corner.

Mei on the other hand just destroys him. You get frozen before you can kill her with your shotgun, you cant really use the hook+shot as she has 250 health and pulling her closes means you willl get frozen.

Like you said Mei is by far a harder counter for roadhog. One of the hardest counters in the game i recon.

[DejaWu]

I've played roadhog alot and sniper isn't much of a problem. They cant kill you with a headshot and you just heal up behind nearest corner.

Mei on the other hand just destroys him. You get frozen before you can kill her with your shotgun, you cant really use the hook+shot as she has 250 health and pulling her closes means you willl get frozen.

Like you said Mei is by far a harder counter for roadhog. One of the hardest counters in the game i recon.

I have updated the sheet to reflect this. I have not played as much Mei as I should so far, and but I definitely undervalued her abilities and impact when making this sheet. Thank you for the input. I feel like at the higher skills, Mei will definitely be a big help against roadhog.

[Deleted]

The problem with counters is that there isn't a set list and people are deciding after a few days of playing. People are like "X counters Torbjörn's turrets because they can just get out of range and kill it easily." Well if Torbjörn choose to build his turret with a blind spot, he didn't pick the right location. Or Tracer can just zip in and pulse bomb a Bastion. An ult is not a counter to a hero, unless you can seriously have your ult up every time they spawn. Genji only counters Bastion if the Bastion is new and doesn't know to stop firing during the 2 seconds he's reflecting.

all of this is true to some extent, but i will still say Tracer is a good counter to bastion, you can blink past his shooting "view" and hit his weak spot from behind.
And even if Torbjörn places his turret right, there wont be a blind side true, but pharah, widowmaker, hanzo, junkrat, Still do so much damge per hit they can run out shot and run back before the turret hits them ones.

[Deleted]

I have updated the sheet to reflect this. I have not played as much Mei as I should so far, and but I definitely undervalued her abilities and impact when making this sheet. Thank you for the input. I feel like at the higher skills, Mei will definitely be a big help against roadhog.

Yeah i didn't play her much either until i got frozen to death over and over. Really strong hero to be honest. If i see that they have Mei i just avoid playing roadhog or keep a wide distance.

[DejaWu]

Yeah i didn't play her much either until i got frozen to death over and over. Really strong hero to be honest. If i see that they have Mei i just avoid playing roadhog or keep a wide distance.

Makes complete sense. Also last night I experienced a very strong Mei that was Ice walling people at very clutch timings to isolate/prevent escapes. As roadhog I can imagine this being absolutely no fun.

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Run into some road blocks on ideas for Countering McCree. I understand that he is designed to win 1v1's and part of playing against him is that you shouldn't let yourself get isolated, but what heroes should counter him or negate his playstyle? My thoughts right now are Mei and Soldier: 76, but I feel washy about them.

Thank you so much for the help and ideas so far!

[Archonite]

I agree that Mei is more of a soft counter to Tracer than the other way around, Mei can easily force a recall early, heal up with shift and use her wall to buy some time if needed. I might be wrong but i dont think Tracer can blink through it, right?

Another soft counter i would suggest is Roadhog countering Reinhardt. While both arent known for their flashy plays, if they ever meet 1v1 id give Roadhog a 90% chance to win, with the remaining 10% being reinhardt suiciding both of them off a cliff. Both lack ranged damage, but roadhog has a strong heal and much better damage up close. The main benefit reinhardt has is that he is better at protecting his team than roadhog is.

And personally i wouldnt consider McCree a hard counter to D.Va, she has enough health and shields to survive a flashbang and a full clip of damage. Maybe its my playstyle as McCree where i dont use a lot ranged but mostly fan the hammer with flashbang and his roll to reload. But while i can confidently duel about half of all heroes as McCree in most circumstances, D.Va isnt one of them.

[zito]

Tracer is not a hard counter to D.Va. I don't think you understand how her armor works. Heroes like winston and tracer have a tough time against dva or any hero with a lot of armor because armor reduces each hit by 5 points. It's not a big deal for a windowmaker since she does a ton of damage in one shot but for tracer who does a bunch of little hits over a big one her damage is nerfed. Dva will kill tracer before she even loses her mech.

This also applies a hard counter to winston because he will die in a fight against Dva every time because he can't do enough damage.

[DejaWu]

Tracer is not a hard counter to D.Va. I don't think you understand how her armor works. Heroes like winston and tracer have a tough time against dva or any hero with a lot of armor because armor reduces each hit by 5 points. It's not a big deal for a windowmaker since she does a ton of damage in one shot but for tracer who does a bunch of little hits over a big one her damage is nerfed. Dva will kill tracer before she even loses her mech.

This also applies a hard counter to winston because he will die in a fight against Dva every time because he can't do enough damage.

Definitely on board with Winston and D.Va, it wasn't something I had thought about. Definitely want to add that! As for Tracer, Armor sucks but it isn't that bad. it does block 5 of tracers damage because she does less than 10 per-instance, but if you are getting in critical hits you hit her for 6 per pistol bullet. But more so, Tracer isnt a hard counter because she can out right kill D.Va, its because a High skill tracer should never die to a D.Va. Maybe she should only be a soft counter, but I dont see a world where a D.Va of equal skill to a Tracer (both being extremely high skill) Could consistently kill the Tracer. Rather, The D.Va would be forced to be retreating most of the time because of how quickly tracer can move, fire, and reset if it gets too close.

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I agree that Mei is more of a soft counter to Tracer than the other way around, Mei can easily force a recall early, heal up with shift and use her wall to buy some time if needed. I might be wrong but i dont think Tracer can blink through it, right?

Another soft counter i would suggest is Roadhog countering Reinhardt. While both arent known for their flashy plays, if they ever meet 1v1 id give Roadhog a 90% chance to win, with the remaining 10% being reinhardt suiciding both of them off a cliff. Both lack ranged damage, but roadhog has a strong heal and much better damage up close. The main benefit reinhardt has is that he is better at protecting his team than roadhog is.

And personally i wouldnt consider McCree a hard counter to D.Va, she has enough health and shields to survive a flashbang and a full clip of damage. Maybe its my playstyle as McCree where i dont use a lot ranged but mostly fan the hammer with flashbang and his roll to reload. But while i can confidently duel about half of all heroes as McCree in most circumstances, D.Va isnt one of them.

Last part i'm a little confused. You say wouldn't be a hard counter, but you seem to be arguing for some kind of counter. I put d.va there because I dont think enough on that list helps against McCree atm.

I like the idea of Roadhog being a soft counter. You are right about his range, his heal is a nice benefit, and if you can react quick enough hook trumps charge and will cancel it. I also recently learned that Whole Hog push back is greater than Reinhardts charge speed, so its another annoying thing Reinhardt can not really deal with.

No Tracer can not blink through it. Unless there is a gap where she should blink, but that is not through.

[Beazy]

Mei is 100% tracer and genji hard counter. Meis slow reduces the distance Tracer and Genji can "teleport". Tracers weapon requires medium to short range to be effective, thats Meis sweet spot. Tracer cannot break the ice once frozen. It only takes two seconds to freeze someone (i think it was buffed last month to 1.7 seconds), Mei has extremely high ammo capacity, allowing her to "spray and pray" on targets in the red zone without reloading down time. If you main Tracer and you're "beating" Mei one on one, just know the person whos playing Mei has no clue what they are doing and are likely playing the game for the first time.