Why bring DK DPS in legion?

[Alvito]

Because you're not in a top 50 guild so it doesn't matter a flying fuck what you bring, that's why.

You could make a pretty strong case that weaker guilds are really the ones that need to min max the best they can since they don't have the skill, teamwork or game plan to play well enough without it. The flip side being some guilds are happy screwing around for 3 to 10 hours a week in normal mode with a all pally raid or something silly like that.

- - - Updated - - -

Lmao
To OP: "Bring the player, not the class" Also, who on Earth from Blizzard called you and told you that DK dps will be shitty??

You know since it never has been maybe he thinks they are due for it.

- - - Updated - - -

LUL if you are 12/13 mythic at this point, then it's not the classes, it's the players.

That might be, but that doesn't mean you want to have those players on weaker specs also.

[Kronik85]

Because the guy playing the DK does more damage than the guy that's playing another melee. The same as it works for virtually everyone.

[Bigbazz]

Well if the DKs on my raid team were as cynical and negative as you, we wouldn't bring you either. FFS, they're not even done balancing yet, and the hybrid tax has been gone for years. You have no way of knowing where you'll fall on the charts, and you don't seem to have much sense of the utility (or lack thereof) other classes bring.

Hybrid tax is probably more of a thing in WOD than it is was in the past. Look back to TBC/WOTLK and the class dps balance was pretty good, if anything you could say that WOTLK had the closest class balance of any expansion. Now the balance is screwed because of niche based balancing and crazy equipment pieces that cause the balance to be fucked.

Doom Nova, Soul Capacitor, the Legendary ring etc. It was completely fucked in MOP too for similar reasons. Legion isn't exactly following WOTLK "bring the player not the class" design... Rather it's "bring the player, the class, the correct spec, and the right legendary". Even with Legendaries disabled initally, the fact that artifacts won't be fully unlocked during progression means you will be punished if you choose to level up an artifact for a spec that isn't competitive when raids release.

Of course tuning is yet to come, at the moment the balance is hilariously all over the place. But with the D3 style gearing we have in Legion don't expect good balance come launch.

[threeks]

Specs should be a lot closer in dps in legion with the new changes to the engine that let them change dmg scaling per spec instead of per class.

[Zazey]

Sorry to have missed most of my own thread been studying most of the day for finals. Going to try and clear up a lot of what people brought up here.
1. I do play in a top 50 guild, have played in a top world guild previously, but I am returning to the game after a hiatus so I have been unable to actually test on alpha. Currently there is very limited information coming out of alpha in terms of dps rankings, log analyzing, etc. (all things that top guilds particularly look for).
With that being said, "bring the player not the class" is completely invalid in a situation where you can take 20 players and have 20+ players that are all solid. If every player is capable of handling mechanics and maximizing their DPS, then you absolutely bring the class.

2. With the introduction of artifact weapons, players can no longer change specs to whichever is useful *during progression*. Which allowed DK's and many other classes to have a reason to be brought to raids, if unholy performs poorly on 1 fight whereas frost performs exceptionally better than most other classes on another fight, we could swap to frost, and vice versa. We can absolutely still do that, however our dps will be lacking over that of a player who already has their artifact prepared for that spec primarily.

Death Knight's also do lose their *key* utility. I say this with a bit of hesitation as obviously talents can change. But in addition to being essentially "forced" into a single progression spec, you run into the loss of utility talents. For example, with frost we can spec in to "maintain" a version of remorseless winter, which was useful in certain fights before, and can continue to be useful. But say unholy performs better, so obviously you would play unholy. You may not be able to just swap to frost for a fight for RW if your dps puts you below a threshold that bringing another class with a similar utility that can outperform you in an offspec. Obviously this is a unique case, but there are plenty of them. The main case being the loss of Gorefiend's Grasp, which was a monster talent that was borderline necessary in many fights during competitive progression.

Also, many people seem to point out that we "don't know where DK's will stand in rankings" or "How do you know mages/hunters/rogues etc will be better than us", and you're right, that is a valid point. HOWEVER, pure classes have "virtually" always outperformed hybrid classes in every tier. Now yes, there are some exceptions, but based on previous tiers myself, and many others, will lean towards the side that we will not be at the top of the pack. DK's also fall into the category of melee, which itself provides us with many other factors to take into account. Every progression based guild will favor ranged over melee, simply because having that advantage may lead to easier kills. It may not give an overall DPS increase, but it could provide a short term dps increase when needed, there are many fights where this is true, I'm not going to list them. So not only are DK's competing for a spot in a roster that is mostly comprised of ranged, we now have to prove why we're being brought over other melee, and I honestly can't see why you would bring a DK over a other melee. However the point remains that a DK has never been the top DPS class, and based on that we *probably* will not be the top dps class.

Some Examples of utility that other classes have that are invaluable to raids:
Feral: Stampeding Roar
Ret: hand of protection,lay on hands, cleanse
Enhance: Hex, purge, ressurect, wind rush totem
Warrior: commanding shout

I'm sure I'm missing some but the point is that unless we significantly out-perform these classes there is virtually no reason to need a DK.

If I am bringing 20 players to raid, 2 tanks, 4 healers, that leaves 14 players for DPS, most of which will be ranged, lets say 8 ranged and 6 melee (just an example), I am now competing for six spots between Potentially*:rogue, pally, druid, warrior, monk, shaman, demon hunter,*hunter*. That's a potential 8 players I have to compete against. Obviously I am going to bring 1-2 warriors a tank(potentially) and a dps for the rallying cry, this is a given. I am bringing a druid for stampeding roar(guardian if applicable if not it's a feral). So in a best case scenario I am competing with 4 spots from a purely DPS perspective. All of this is also assuming that I won't just bring 3 melee and the rest ranged, which has happened plenty of times before.

Most of what I said above is speculation in regards to legion yes, but it is based on current and previous facts.

And again, this thread is more of a discussion rather than a "Help me get brought to raid plz", if I have to class swap I'll class swap it isn't an issue. The point I was making is that "is there a reason to not reroll a ranged class for next expansion".

TL/DR: Assuming your raid is Min/Maxing, and assuming DK's will not be the top dps spec, what do we offer the raid? Or is it looking like we should class swap. *Not class preferential based or on personal preference*


--quick edit--
I just want to say that I am not attacking anyone on their preference of playstyle, but that this thread was intended to discuss raid makeup and DK class dynamics at a high level of competitiveness. It stems from the fact that if you want to play a DK in a top raiding guild, you need to have a reason to be brought. In the past most guilds brought 1-3 DPS DK's to raid because of abilities like gorefiends grasp, AS WELL AS being competitive in DPS. As it stands now, most guilds bring 0-1 DK's and it's almost always for gorefiend's grasp because there are other classes that we can bring that will outdps us. So with the loss of gorefiends, unless we're destroying other classes why are we getting picked?

[Gaidax]

You could make a pretty strong case that weaker guilds are really the ones that need to min max the best they can since they don't have the skill, teamwork or game plan to play well enough without it.

Weaker guilds don't have the luxury of limitless choice that gives them a viable option to stack FOTM. Besides for such guilds, if a player genuinely knows what he is doing - he would top the rest of the rabble with any spec.

[Shadow Fox]

Just be a raiding guild of Druids. You'll be fine!

[Deleted]

If you're arguing that DKs deserve a spot in every raid what class do you think they should bench instead?

If your assumptions are to be believed and we follow your argument - there's more dpa classes than spots anyway.. You give us DKs our grips back and make us 'desirable' which of the other specs would you bench to make room?

Certain classes always lose out in niche fights / top 50 guilds.. Meanwhile for everyone else in the world: don't stand in fire, do good dps, be consistent and you'll get a raid spot.

Edit: if your intentions are world 50 then I'm pretty sure its a damn pre-requisite to have well-geared alts for class stacking and novelty mechanics anyway so you raid regardless. Bring the player not the class!

[friedmudkipz]

My take on this: DKs will still have a niche in extended, spread dps situations as they do on live with NP (only now with whatever the new disease shit is called, along with epidemic). With DnD also, our aoe in general is pretty solid, regardless of the situation. As with live, our ST won't be hurt that much by this aoe which can also be useful. Single grip may still be helpful on some fights like it was on shit like socrethar and archimonde in HFC.

Honestly, most melee dps don't seem to have a ton of utility in Legion. Why would you take a feral, enhance, ww, dh, etc? None have a particularly compelling reason to be taken other than number tuning, do they? Most likely it will just boil down to dps tuning and compatibility with encounters. DKs were taken before HFC, so gorefiends isn't the sole reason for the existence of dks in competitive raid settings.

[Zazey]

If you're arguing that DKs deserve a spot in every raid what class do you think they should bench instead?

If your assumptions are to be believed and we follow your argument - there's more dpa classes than spots anyway.. You give us DKs our grips back and make us 'desirable' which of the other specs would you bench to make room?

Certain classes always lose out in niche fights / top 50 guilds.. Meanwhile for everyone else in the world: don't stand in fire, do good dps, be consistent and you'll get a raid spot.

Edit: if your intentions are world 50 then I'm pretty sure its a damn pre-requisite to have well-geared alts for class stacking and novelty mechanics anyway so you raid regardless. Bring the player not the class!

I fully agree with alts and class stacking, let me try and simplify my point. It comes from the perspective that I, much like many others, enjoy our DK class. We want to see it succeed and we want to feel useful to the raid. When I used to play my hunter, it felt great knowing that I would always be brought to raid because I was good, and most importantly, my class was good.

What I was trying to ask was, is there any reason to main a DK, other than because I like it, in a top 50 environment.

Yes this also applies to other classes as well, but I'm not talking about them, they're asking the same thing.

In regards to why I would sit other classes over a DK:
Classes are chosen in the following method, assuming all players skill is equal:
1. Does this player's class bring anything to benefit the raid.
2. Is this player's class' damage viable.

If your class brings something to the raid, and that something outvalues the dps of a class that does more dps, then that player will get brought.

If your class doesn't bring something to the raid, but your damage is more valuable then what the other class can bring utility wise, then I will bring this player.

Based on the entire history of DK's dps, we are typically middle of the pack, maybe high-middle, low-top end of the spectrum. If this is the case in legion, I see zero reason why a raid wouldn't tell it's DK's to reroll to another class. Can you, or anyone, provide a reason why DK's should be brought. It's like the position enhance and windwalker has been in for a while. They don't outperform the other dps classes, and even if they bring a minor utility, it isn't worth it over the other classes that have utility or do significantly more damage.

- - - Updated - - -

Well before WoD 25 player raids gave you a bit more flexibility in terms of being able to bring less viable classes. Obviously you still have flex, but much less. DK's had gorefiends that was key for many fights during progression; heroic will of the emperor, for example, was tremendously easier with DK stacking, and it was the main fight of the instance. In almost every fight with multiple adds, you saw an increase in dk's getting brought, and in many fights with no adds, you saw less DK's getting brought. Same concept applies to legion, but if DK's lose the ability to be key on certain fights, why not just swap to a class that rarely see's changes in class size such as mage or druid?

[Baddok21]

historically this might be a few reasons to bring a DK

1) Dks are typically top Tier DPS for progression (when no ones geared)

2) Unholy is usually such a Safe bet for Single target and AoE (on progression) there is a underlining advantage to having 1 spec that probably will be the best at everything. (as you stated a Arcane mage who must go fire for AoE will inherently be weaker then a UHDK thats always good with a further progressed artifact)

3) Ghoul debuffs if they work for raid members and are unique?

[Alvito]

Weaker guilds don't have the luxury of limitless choice that gives them a viable option to stack FOTM. Besides for such guilds, if a player genuinely knows what he is doing - he would top the rest of the rabble with any spec.

Sure they do. Maybe not to the degree they will kick out somebody for playing a weaker spec but they can certainly ask and get people to play stronger ones. Just because a player can top others in a less optimal spec doesn't mean they shouldn't or can't play a better option of specs. You don't have to sink to the ability of your worst person just to do it. A great way to show that min maxing helps the middle of the pack to bottom of the pack raids more. When they add in valor item level increases you see tons of slow to no progression guilds knock off tons of new bosses. Why because doing more dmg, hps and taking more dmg for tanks got them past the hump. That is the same as having multiple people going from the 3rd or 2nd best spec for their class to the best. I'm not saying you make people reroll, but you might not want to let your hunters play survival.

[Zazey]

historically this might be a few reasons to bring a DK

1) Dks are typically top Tier DPS for progression (when no ones geared)

2) Unholy is usually such a Safe bet for Single target and AoE (on progression) there is a underlining advantage to having 1 spec that probably will be the best at everything. (as you stated a Arcane mage who must go fire for AoE will inherently be weaker then a UHDK thats always good with a further progressed artifact)

3) Ghoul debuffs if they work for raid members and are unique?

This is the type of discussion I was looking for. Thank you.

[ShmooDude]

Feral: Stampeding Roar

I can understand that since you're a DK you're not following druid stuff but the Feral version of Stampeding Roar has been gutted.

Stampeding Roar
Instant 2 min cooldown
Requires Druid
Requires level 88
Lets loose a wild roar, increasing the movement speed of all friendly players within 10 yards by 60% for 8 sec.

Only bears have access to the 40 yard roar. Then it gets completely outclassed by Wind Rush Totem:

Wind Rush Totem Talent
40 yd range
Instant 2 min cooldown
Requires Shaman
Requires level 30
Summons a totem at the target location for 15 sec, continually granting all allies who pass within 10 yards 60% increased movement speed for 5 sec.

Which ALL shamans have access to, ele, enh and resto. Meaning Ferals are completely unnecessary.

You still have access to regular Death Grip which I can think of has been used multiple encounters every single tier. You're the ONLY class that gets this, so you still really good unique utility. Loss of Gorefiend's Grasp was quite frankly needed. It was pretty ridiculously op to the point that encounters became twice as hard if you didn't have it.

You also have much better DPS mechanics than feral in addition to being able to pick from 2 DPS specs. Ferals will be still completely terrible AoE (no amount of tuning will fix this because it will "break" Blizzard's swipe can't be better than shred at 2 targets rule). Bad at short lived adds. Bad at pretty much everything other than Boss damage which is the most closely tuned.

Much rather be in a DK's position than a Ferals.

[Hellborne87]

LUL if you are 12/13 mythic at this point, then it's not the classes, it's the players.

Being 12/13 Mythic at the moment is not something to be ashamed of... Sure, there are many more progressed guilds but that's still far ahead of the majority of guilds. Not to mention, we're a 2 night a week guild. Most players in my raid group are 80+ percentile players. There are better out there, but I'm not ashamed of it and I'd wager you're probably not as "elite" as you lead people to believe. What I'd give to see your armory and parses.

[ro9ue]

Uh you're going to bring whoever isn't shit regardless of their class.

[corebit]

So only the top 50 care about performance, analyze logs, and have benches / competition for spots? My guild is just now 12/13 Mythic, we're hoping to get M Archy in the next week or so - and we absolutely encourage people to play the optimal specs of their class and steer away from recruiting "dead" specs / classes... Just like most of the guild ahead of us. I think a more refined way to word your statement would be, "If you don't raid mythic content, you're fine to play whatever you'd like and still find raid spots with a certain degree of ease".

There are no dead specs, every spec has killed Archimonde easily especially with rings and inflated ilevels. Nevermind that Mannoroth is way harder than him. If you get past Mannoroth you'll have a very easy time on Archimonde.

If your guild insists in min-maxing classes at this late stage of raiding instead of improving your group coordination on the fight, they are doing it wrong. Unless you mean you want to cheese the fight like 1-doomfire strat.

[Bigbazz]

There are plenty of dead specs, SV hunter or Gladiator Warrior for example. You can comfortably boost Mythic Archi with a well geared group so it's not really an indication of anything that the specs have kills on that boss, check how many actual logs you find for each spec and you will quickly find the dead ones.

Being 12/13 mythic doesn't mean you don't min-max, some of you speak as if people are min-maxing instead of trying to improve fight co-ordination as if each is mutually exclusive.. There is also the fact that maybe some players came back to raiding late, a guy I raided with at the start of HFC only recently killed Archi M while I killed it last November... However he spent 6 months away from the game during that time, and on the other hand I stopped raiding entirely in January.

It's silly to look at progression as if players have literally been raiding content weekly since it was released, that is almost never the case.

[corebit]

Being 12/13 mythic doesn't mean you don't min-max, some of you speak as if people are min-maxing instead of trying to improve fight co-ordination as if each is mutually exclusive.. There is also the fact that maybe some players came back to raiding late, a guy I raided with at the start of HFC only recently killed Archi M while I killed it last November... However he spent 6 months away from the game during that time, and on the other hand I stopped raiding entirely in January.

Why min-max like a top raiding guild when you aren't even at that level? If everyone in your guild doesn't have multiple geared alts, why bench based on class instead of performance? Especially at this time late in the expansion when everyone is going AFK and quality raiders are hard to find. It's posturing more than anything and completely unnecessary. And we're talking about DKs which are more than fine if you only care about downing Archimonde. Mass grip is still super useful for the infernals.

As for Legion why not wait until the balancing actually starts before complaining the sky is already falling.

[Bigbazz]

Why min-max like a top raiding guild when you aren't even at that level? If everyone in your guild doesn't have multiple geared alts, why bench based on class instead of performance? Especially at this time late in the expansion when everyone is going AFK and quality raiders are hard to find. It's posturing more than anything and completely unnecessary. And we're talking about DKs which are more than fine if you only care about downing Archimonde. Mass grip is still super useful for the infernals.

As for Legion why not wait until the balancing actually starts before complaining the sky is already falling.

That guild my friend joined that recently downed M Archi (or well a few weeks back now), they benched a bunch of their players based on class and performance and got in new players from another guild as some sort of merge, where they had a better class breakdown and probably overall better players... That means they absolutely just fucked over some people in that exchange, including another friend of mine who was playing as their 2nd Ret.

Prior to that they had spent weeks wiping endlessly, the week they did this change they killed the boss after having previously not even got that close. The biggest difference was the improvement in raid comp. If you're running a less than ideal raid comp then your lack of skill and/or gear is only holding you back further, making min-maxing on have even more of an impact by ultimately reducing difficulty.

Like I said already, whether you're fighting Archi now or 6 months ago is fairly irrelevant since pretty much nobody has been raiding this whole time, aside from a few diehards you have players returning from breaks for end of expansion glory and new players. Not many "friends and buddies" kinda guilds make it that far into Mythic, a great deal of them already died on Gorefiend prior to +10 ilvl. The ones now at 12/13m are eyeing up that goal pretty hard even if they are the 1000th guild.

I think the point I'm trying to make is, you will see skilled players and hardcore elitist personalities and approaches even down at the top 1500 guilds, some of them even more rigorously following min-maxing where possible to overcome their shortcomings, where a more skilled group would not need to.