Legion classes seem to be in an unfinished state and this is concerning.

[Deleted]

Classes were and still are fairly even on live. Your player skill varies though. We all know the top parses are cheesed so they aren't a reflection of how a class performs on average.

Um, no. Classes [SPECS] were never even close to even in any version of this game. This could've many different reasons - I just believe that Blizzard doesnt want to balance all specs for whatever reason, because there's no other explaination after 12 years.

- - - Updated - - -

SimC is a tool, one of many in this game. Blizzard observes both Simc and Warcraftlogs when taking changes into consideration. They also don't blindly look at the numbers. They compare the scripts used to their own. Players have always come up with unique ways of playing their class which they never thought of. Sometimes Blizzard will embrace it. Other times they will nerf it.

Again, wrong. They have their own in house sim tools - this is all we know, except that their in-hose sim tool is a COMPLETE FAILURE. They maybe want logs to back up your claims when you write to them, but they never balanced specs around actual live logs.

[gcsmith]

Um, no. Classes [SPECS] were never even close to even in any version of this game. This could've many different reasons - I just believe that Blizzard doesnt want to balance all specs for whatever reason, because there's no other explaination after 12 years.

The reality is, it's hard to achieve perfect balance and still have classes feeling unique. Why do you think they're removing raid buffs after 12 years? Because they've finally got to the point that Raid buffs are pointless, because they exist on so many classes that you have to balance the raids under the assumption everyone has every single buff, so might as well remove the buffs and eliminate the need to bring any single buff.

With a huge return to class fantasy, I'd expect a larger disparity between specs within each class at the moment, though it should improve over the expansion.

[Taeldorian]

Well, I personally find it cute that people harp on every little detail that they don't like instead of trying to enjoy the game and have fun. You know, the main point of a video game? Lmao, sad shit indeed.

This. Really bad when people are attempting to find every possible bad thing about a video game so they can bash it rather than enjoy it. Waste of time, unfortunate, and completely disregards the main point of a video game which is to have fun. Definitely sad shit

[Nevcairiel]

Um, no. Classes [SPECS] were never even close to even in any version of this game. This could've many different reasons - I just believe that Blizzard doesnt want to balance all specs for whatever reason, because there's no other explaination after 12 years.

They intentionally nerfed some specs to discourage players playing them, because they had gameplay issues which they didn't want to fix in the middle of an expansion, namely Demo Locks and Survival Hunters on Live right now - two specs that got massively reworked in Legion afterwards.

Other then that, classes/specs will never be 100% equal in every fight, and Blizzard has time and again said that they are fine with that, as long as a class is not consistently under or overperforming. Variation between fights is fine. Some are strong on single target, some are strong on 2-3 targets, some are strong on sustained AoE, some on burst AoE. Some offer a good balance.

For SimCraft, as people have said, it is just one tool out of many. Often people use the single target ranking to judge an entire class, instead of looking at the variations over all the different encounter possibilities outlined above, so as always, take any data you didn't verify yourself with a grain of salt.

At the end of the day, you do have to realize that not everyone plays high-end mythic, and DPS variations between classes is not important to them, as long as it remains within a reasonable margin, which it usually does.

[Mafic]

Again it isn't about equality, tuning, or what classes/specs bring as that is a can of worms that should be re-visited down the road along with spec specific legendaries.

The problem (right now) is the fundamental mechanics of many specs simply don't work in the design paradigm of Legion. Legion is the frame work and right now many specs are half finished or still stuck in past expansion design paradigms. WoD Arms is a good example, or could be argued many specs are made to resemble WoD Arms in Legion.

[stross01]

Except beta stays live up until the expansion goes live. Class and game changes happen right up until release. They'll get their biggest pool of testers when the pre-patch goes live. Last expansion Hunters received their tuning buff a couple days before WoD launched.

The Warlords pre-patch went to the PTR 66 days before release. The pre-patch went live 30 days before release.

Classes won't change in any meaningful way during the PTR patch. Just bug fixes. If you can remember which hunter abilities were changed, I can look up the changelog to verify.

I think them keeping the beta up isn't so much for testing as letting everyone test it to hype it up for the preorder.

[Mafic]

The Warlords pre-patch went to the PTR 66 days before release. The pre-patch went live 30 days before release.

Classes won't change in any meaningful way during the PTR patch. Just bug fixes. If you can remember which hunter abilities were changed, I can look up the changelog to verify.

I think them keeping the beta up isn't so much for testing as letting everyone test it to hype it up for the preorder.

The hype isn't going to be there if they release to the masses what they have done to classes.

[Rekz]

Again it isn't about equality, tuning, or what classes/specs bring as that is a can of worms that should be re-visited down the road along with spec specific legendaries.

The problem (right now) is the fundamental mechanics of many specs simply don't work in the design paradigm of Legion. Legion is the frame work and right now many specs are half finished or still stuck in past expansion design paradigms. WoD Arms is a good example, or could be argued many specs are made to resemble WoD Arms in Legion.

I'll trust blizzard over your assessment. They've been doing this for a long time. It may very well be that your class is nerfed in which case, your class will feel as if it doesn't work correctly.

[Mafic]

I'll trust blizzard over your assessment. .

Thanks for giving me new signature material.

[Jessicka]

I'll trust blizzard over your assessment. They've been doing this for a long time. It may very well be that your class is nerfed in which case, your class will feel as if it doesn't work correctly.

They have done this a very long time, and have a lot of form in fucking up specs at launch. In many cases, less so now thanks to hotfixes, the x.1 patch was usually when things were probably most finalised. Although changes would occur in later patches in accordance with new content.

[Breccia]

You had 5 months of alpha to provide feedback.

Which was done. For many specs, it was summarily ignored. Tuning won't fix Arms boring rotation. Tuning won't make Rage from damage taken any smarter of an idea for Prot Warriors. The comments from the hand-picked Alpha testers was overwhelming on both these fronts and was ignored. Brewmasters were the exception, but should have been the rule. Now they have created this issue with their deadline, and their lack of desire to follow the feedback they specifically asked for.

[Mafic]

Yup...even with hand picked alpha testers...they are still seeing resistance to their pruning and class designs for Legion. Imagine what the masses of WoW players in the general population will do if they launch this onto the live servers?

Grab the popcorn and watch the mayhem unfold in slow motion.

[PrairieChicken]

People focus on rotations (and while it does matter) when utilities are what is really being pruned

[Mafic]

People focus on rotations (and while it does matter) when utilities are what is really being pruned

Worst part is that a lot of utility for PVP via PVP talents are competing with one another or are locked out by another PVP talent.

[Tharkkun]

Um, no. Classes [SPECS] were never even close to even in any version of this game. This could've many different reasons - I just believe that Blizzard doesnt want to balance all specs for whatever reason, because there's no other explaination after 12 years.

- - - Updated - - -



Again, wrong. They have their own in house sim tools - this is all we know, except that their in-hose sim tool is a COMPLETE FAILURE. They maybe want logs to back up your claims when you write to them, but they never balanced specs around actual live logs.

Not *all* specs. But every class has a competitive spec. Some specs are better suited for PVP or AOE type fights so they obviously won't be as effective in every PVE situation. That's a no brainer man.

Their in house tools are obviously better. Otherwise Simc wouldn't be constantly patched when they notice, oops we weren't adding in the bonus damage from this talent for 4 months. No wonder Blizzard said this spec was fine.

Look at survival hunters in WOD. They were simulating bottom of the barrel so no one played them until someone noticed that serpent sting received a tick on every application of arcane and multi shot. Blizzard's sims showed them in a good place so they were never buffed. Simc fixes their error and nearly every hunter re-rolls survival overnight.

- - - Updated - - -

The Warlords pre-patch went to the PTR 66 days before release. The pre-patch went live 30 days before release.

Classes won't change in any meaningful way during the PTR patch. Just bug fixes. If you can remember which hunter abilities were changed, I can look up the changelog to verify.

I think them keeping the beta up isn't so much for testing as letting everyone test it to hype it up for the preorder.

Pre-patch went live October 10th 2014. There was a flurry of balance changes a couple weeks after which is well after the PTR finished. WOD launch was 11/13.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/16370024/602-hotfixes-october-21-10-21-2014

[chooi]

Who's number one goal?
I'm not a warrior, but they are incredibly strong and have an incredible niche in WoD. Its boring, but is Arcane any less boring with all the RNG and spam?
Ask your self do you want to press buttons in a strange pattern and be the worst spec in the game or do you want to be the top dps, break the rules of DPS, and have a boring "rotation?"

You do know that there's a middle ground?

A spec can be fun and engaging without being either an overly simplistic one-button-spamfest or an overcomplicated button bloat (or RNG-shitfest).

I'd rather have a balanced and fluid spec than trashing the meters by stupidly spamming one button - because it becomes tedious really fast and the numbers can (and probably will) go down at some point. Now you're left with an underperforming and unfun spec. Have fun!

In Alpha/Beta mechanics/gameplay should always come first. Create a compelling spec, then tune numbers accordingly. It's not fuckin witchcraft. In that regard, Legion seems to be seriously lacking and that indeed is worrisome.

[Artunias]

The "It's only alpha" comments amuse me. They must be new here.

[Lorelei]

That's blizz's way of saying that class mechanics are set in stone unless something forces them to go back and change shit. So, yeah, class mechanics are done. What's in the alpha is pretty much what we'll get live.

There's a difference in saying that things probably won't change (which is true, they probably won't) and saying that Blizzard said they definitely won't change.

[stross01]

Pre-patch went live October 10th 2014. There was a flurry of balance changes a couple weeks after which is well after the PTR finished. WOD launch was 11/13.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/163...-21-10-21-2014

Just flat damage increases/decreases. Again, nothing meaningful will be changed in that time. Pretty serious doubts about classes gaining or losing mechanics or new abilities. The only time those things happen are when things get to crisis-level. (IE Aspect of the Fox/Amplify Magic)

[Mafic]

Just flat damage increases/decreases. Again, nothing meaningful will be changed in that time. Pretty serious doubts about classes gaining or losing mechanics or new abilities. The only time those things happen are when things get to crisis-level. (IE Aspect of the Fox/Amplify Magic)

Yeah damage tuning may be addressed after launch to address some outliers or something overpowered. With that said I predict that Equality (Paladins) is going to receive a hefty nerf and drastic change...Blizzard thinks this is a fun ability, but the players feel that it is hard to balance and not fun.

Sad that players know more about WoW than the WoW devs themselves.