Casualization is the biggest problem wow: True or false

[Irian]

Entirely false.

The problem with WoW is that Blizzard wants to appeal to people who don't want to play an MMORPG. This goes for "I only have 30 minutes a day to play but I want to be a great player" guy and "I don't really have interest in any aspect of the game except raiding" guy. Blizzard is trying too hard to widen WoW's demographic to people who don't even want to play their game to begin with.

[ShiyoKozuki]

Entirely false.

The problem with WoW is that Blizzard wants to appeal to people who don't want to play an MMORPG. This goes for "I only have 30 minutes a day to play but I want to be a great player" guy and "I don't really have interest in any aspect of the game except raiding" guy. Blizzard is trying too hard to widen WoW's demographic to people who don't even want to play their game to begin with.

Thus in return they get a game that almost no one wants to play.

[Gilgameshh]

I believe they added catchup because in early WoW they had bad raid participation rates -but it was really fine imo, it was like a carrot on a stick and kept everyone playing/progressing, but now with things like flexible/cross-realm its easier then ever for casual players to get into content, instead of being gated by 25/40 man requirements.

Yet, the catchup still remains and instead of having to do anything at all you just skip right over it. Pointless.

I was pretty terrible at the game in early wow, and now I'm better but a casual now and there is legit nothing to work on outside of 1 raid on 1 difficulty.

I would imagine that most people are experiencing something very similar. You sound to me like the average person who has played WoW over the years.

What boggles my mind is that people feel the need to have the best gear to do easy content. A casual player who has five hours a week to play WoW is going to now progress extremely fast towards their end goals. Once they do that, what's left? Character progression drives this game, so when that process is accelerated or even removed, there's not a hell of a lot to do anymore. Even someone who only plays for a handful of hours every week has problems advancing their character after a very short amount of time. Those who loves alts are the exception, but even then, how many people really want to do the same content over and over and over again on multiple difficulties?

I want to believe that the average person would like to be able to gradually progress their character throughout the course of an expansion. That person doesn't need to be gifted epics in LFR while they put someone on auto-follow because it's far easier than a heroic dungeon that awards lower ilvl blues. That person doesn't need the option to purchase an Auction House epic for every character slot with easily obtained (or purchased) gold. That person doesn't need to skip content if they join midway through the expansion because they're happy to catch up by playing through the content they missed.

Either the average person doesn't feel that way or their voices aren't heard. Either way, it's clear that millions of people are disenfranchised by the game. From ten million to three million in a little over a year? Try to tell me it's simply because the game is old.

[Kolvarg]

Entirely false.

The problem with WoW is that Blizzard wants to appeal to people who don't want to play an MMORPG. This goes for "I only have 30 minutes a day to play but I want to be a great player" guy and "I don't really have interest in any aspect of the game except raiding" guy. Blizzard is trying too hard to widen WoW's demographic to people who don't even want to play their game to begin with.

Exactly. It's completly ok to allow the guy that plays 30 minutes a day to eventually get powerfull. Not ok to change the whole game and how it works to allow "everyone" to do "everything" in as little time as possible. It just goes completly agaisnt the whole notion of a subscription-based game, imho.

And before someone asks, lately I'm one of those who plays just a short time daily and sometimes a few hours in the weekend for raiding and stuff, and I'm completly ok with people who dedicate more time than me being more powerful, especially PVE-wise. PvP is a different subject =P

It just becomes more meaningful when things take time to accomplish. When you play 30mins a day it may take you ages to even get to max level, but it will be something you'll be slowly progressing to day by day at your own rythm through something at least somewhat challenging, and eventually you'll get there just like the guy who did it in a less than week by playing almost 24/7.

[Gilgameshh]

Entirely false.

The problem with WoW is that Blizzard wants to appeal to people who don't want to play an MMORPG. This goes for "I only have 30 minutes a day to play but I want to be a great player" guy and "I don't really have interest in any aspect of the game except raiding" guy. Blizzard is trying too hard to widen WoW's demographic to people who don't even want to play their game to begin with.

Careful, someone is going to try to tell you that you have no idea what an MMO-RPG is. You can simply just play with people you don't have to socialize with. You don't have to talk to anyone if you don't want to! Just being around those people gives you the MMO-RPG experience. They're going to tell you that other MMO-RPGs are played by solo players 60%+ of the time. Forget that those MMO-RPGs are complete failures and let's just focus on the fact that a majority of the people who play them are doing it solo.

Honestly, I feel like half the people who'll debate this just want to debate something. WoW could be its own genre, and people might as well treat it as such. It was a game built on social interaction and gradual character progression. I can't remember the exact quote, but it was from 2005 and along the lines of, "We've designed this game for quality of content over accesibility." They've obviously done a 180 on their design philosophy. Yes, times have changed, the game has changed, and because of its success other MMO's have tried to copy it. Some will tell you that it's failing because the game is old and there's no way to revitalize it. Those people fail to realize that the game has evolved and it's quite possible that the changes since WotLK have contributed far more to the decline than they want to believe.

I don't claim to know what's best for the game moving forward, but I do know what I and everyone I know who has quit want: a game built on social interaction with gradual character progression.

[Osmeric]

I literally threw up in my mouth while reading the post of Osmeric you quoted. You are the reason this game went to shit, I hope you know that.

You make no sense whatsoever. The devs have actually NOT followed up on what I was observing there. They have designed a game that fails according to those standards. So how am I responsible for anything?

If the devs took that observation I made seriously the game would be far different (and I argue, more successful, but that hasn't been tested.)

Also: observation is not advocacy is not control. Do you think my writing words in a forum gives me some kind of magical control over what the devs do? No, you're just reacting mindlessly to words that distress you.

[Daffan]

I would imagine that most people are experiencing something very similar. You sound to me like the average person who has played WoW over the years.

What boggles my mind is that people feel the need to have the best gear to do easy content. A casual player who has five hours a week to play WoW is going to now progress extremely fast towards their end goals. Once they do that, what's left? Character progression drives this game, so when that process is accelerated or even removed, there's not a hell of a lot to do anymore. Even someone who only plays for a handful of hours every week has problems advancing their character after a very short amount of time. Those who loves alts are the exception, but even then, how many people really want to do the same content over and over and over again on multiple difficulties?

I want to believe that the average person would like to be able to gradually progress their character throughout the course of an expansion. That person doesn't need to be gifted epics in LFR while they put someone on auto-follow because it's far easier than a heroic dungeon that awards lower ilvl blues. That person doesn't need the option to purchase an Auction House epic for every character slot with easily obtained (or purchased) gold. That person doesn't need to skip content if they join midway through the expansion because they're happy to catch up by playing through the content they missed.

Either the average person doesn't feel that way or their voices aren't heard. Either way, it's clear that millions of people are disenfranchised by the game. From ten million to three million in a little over a year? Try to tell me it's simply because the game is old.

I want to say I'm the average person but I put in a lot more hours imo (For no real reason, so many alts - not actually progressing anything or doing anything of use, because there is nothing left)

But yeah, it's so easy to juggle even 10 alts if you wanted. Literally hit level 100, afk in a bg/baleful/timewalking and boom you are basically done on your alts even.

The real argument I like against catchup is. Is it better to progress and enjoy 90% of the content but struggle on last 10% and maybe never see it properly, or skip the 90% and finish the last 10% in 2 weeks then get bored? (not everyone does mythic difficulty).

[Ethas]

Is casualization single handedly the biggest reason for people leaving world of warcraft in unprecedented numbers?

True or false.

False.

But this is one of the biggest factors.

[Deleted]

I disagree with a lot of what they've done with respect to levelling but I can understand their motivation behind the changes.

They determined that a lot of players keep playing due for social reasons and that social connections were/are one of the main sources of new players.

The 'problem' they hit was all the established players were at level cap and after several expansions the gap with new starters had grown too large for people to cross.

Hence they shortened and short-circuited the levelling process to the point where the whole thing is a bit of a joke now.

There has always been a turn-over of players and they cannot focus entirely on retaining players so I understand them trying to make it easier but it's not great for the game.

RPGs have a natural life cycle - usually the game is over once you hit level cap (if you ever do) and you start again. I think you would get better games if they limited WoW to a couple of expansions at most and brought out a fresh game every few years. That would keep the game fresher but I don't think they'd risk splitting the player base and the loss between games. In hind sight it would have fitted with the current fashion for legacy servers.

- - - Updated - - -

Honestly, I feel like half the people who'll debate this just want to debate something. WoW could be its own genre, and people might as well treat it as such. It was a game built on social interaction and gradual character progression. I can't remember the exact quote, but it was from 2005 and along the lines of, "We've designed this game for quality of content over accesibility." They've obviously done a 180 on their design philosophy. Yes, times have changed, the game has changed, and because of its success other MMO's have tried to copy it. Some will tell you that it's failing because the game is old and there's no way to revitalize it. Those people fail to realize that the game has evolved and it's quite possible that the changes since WotLK have contributed far more to the decline than they want to believe.

The game has changed but so has the whole wider environment it sits in and that's probably had far more impact on it.

For example my kids used to beg to allowed on to WoW and were waiting to hit 12 so they could have their own account but by the time they reached 12 they'd largely forgotten about it. They're somewhat into minecraft but there's a lot more they can do on line and a fair amount of it isn't MMOs. WoW has way more competition than it did back then.

[Thunderball]

Not true anymore. Community was already been ruined, everyone who benefitted from harder WoW already quit a long time ago. An overwhelming majority of the people who play today cannot play the game that WoW used to be.

Blizzard wanted to attract too wide of an audience and lost the people who made it popular and attractive in the process. Going back means losing most of the people who play today, and people who have been let down by the game so much are very unlikely to return.

[Dormie]

Tbh I find it funny that anyone who pays a monthly sub for a game could at the same time call themselves a casual. Only in the WoW world.

[Deleted]

Tbh I find it funny that anyone who pays a monthly sub for a game could at the same time call themselves a casual. Only in the WoW world.

What does monthly sub has anything to do with being hardcore or casual?
I pay a sub while logging once a day for one hour to do garrison missions. Dont tell me Im hardcore player....

[Osmeric]

Tbh I find it funny that anyone who pays a monthly sub for a game could at the same time call themselves a casual. Only in the WoW world.

Obviously people who pay a monthly cable bill are hardcore TV watchers. This argument is totally sensible!

[Eapoe]

Careful, someone is going to try to tell you that you have no idea what an MMO-RPG is. You can simply just play with people you don't have to socialize with. You don't have to talk to anyone if you don't want to! Just being around those people gives you the MMO-RPG experience. They're going to tell you that other MMO-RPGs are played by solo players 60%+ of the time. Forget that those MMO-RPGs are complete failures and let's just focus on the fact that a majority of the people who play them are doing it solo.

Honestly, I feel like half the people who'll debate this just want to debate something. WoW could be its own genre, and people might as well treat it as such. It was a game built on social interaction and gradual character progression. I can't remember the exact quote, but it was from 2005 and along the lines of, "We've designed this game for quality of content over accesibility." They've obviously done a 180 on their design philosophy. Yes, times have changed, the game has changed, and because of its success other MMO's have tried to copy it. Some will tell you that it's failing because the game is old and there's no way to revitalize it. Those people fail to realize that the game has evolved and it's quite possible that the changes since WotLK have contributed far more to the decline than they want to believe.

I don't claim to know what's best for the game moving forward, but I do know what I and everyone I know who has quit want: a game built on social interaction with gradual character progression.

You're literally taking what an MMORPG is and saying "No, that's wrong. Here's what I feel an MMORPG is and that's why I'm right."
People keep using social interaction as a driving point for an MMORPG. It's not, this game can be played entirely solo, while a MASSIVE amount of people inhabit the same world, while you level a character and then progress is the "end game" content, either choosing to do that solo (LFR/RBG's), or being social yourself while in a guild looking to do these same things. You can also choose to be social in any random matchmaking group. Just because you queue solo doesn't mean you can't talk to other people.
Also, let's not be insulting to other games of the genre. Games like SW:ToR and Rift, while not having the numbers as WoW, still have a decent following and are successes.
The game itself is time released, which allows for the gradual progression you ask for (unless you're a die hard player that raids bosses on PTR and then spends around 30+ hours a week in progression to clear within a few weeks, and even then still needing to gear up). Never mind that to have social interaction is also found in a guild, something usually required to do the hardest difficulty (let's face it, some guilds struggle normal), as well as can be found in trade/general chat.
If you want a game with social interaction, then start talking to people on your realm. Find people to interact with. Work towards making the game social again. Social isn't exclusive to "group up to achieve X goal," it requires talking to people. Maybe start doing it in game and try to find like minded people.

[Dormie]

What does monthly sub has anything to do with being hardcore or casual?
I pay a sub while logging once a day for one hour to do garrison missions. Dont tell me Im hardcore player....

You are, though. Just logging in every day for whatever length of time removes you from the casual label. If that makes you a casual then I'm somehow a mythic raiding super-casual.

- - - Updated - - -

Obviously people who pay a monthly cable bill are hardcore TV watchers. This argument is totally sensible!

My internet plan does not include TV for that very reason. I got the $40 internet only plan instead of the $70-80 internet + satellite plan and just got an antenna because I'm a CASUAL Tv watcher.

[Jewsco]

I would imagine that most people are experiencing something very similar. You sound to me like the average person who has played WoW over the years.

What boggles my mind is that people feel the need to have the best gear to do easy content. A casual player who has five hours a week to play WoW is going to now progress extremely fast towards their end goals. Once they do that, what's left? Character progression drives this game, so when that process is accelerated or even removed, there's not a hell of a lot to do anymore. Even someone who only plays for a handful of hours every week has problems advancing their character after a very short amount of time. Those who loves alts are the exception, but even then, how many people really want to do the same content over and over and over again on multiple difficulties?

I want to believe that the average person would like to be able to gradually progress their character throughout the course of an expansion. That person doesn't need to be gifted epics in LFR while they put someone on auto-follow because it's far easier than a heroic dungeon that awards lower ilvl blues. That person doesn't need the option to purchase an Auction House epic for every character slot with easily obtained (or purchased) gold. That person doesn't need to skip content if they join midway through the expansion because they're happy to catch up by playing through the content they missed.

Either the average person doesn't feel that way or their voices aren't heard. Either way, it's clear that millions of people are disenfranchised by the game. From ten million to three million in a little over a year? Try to tell me it's simply because the game is old.

Except for the fact you can't buy gear for every slot. You can have 3 crafted pieces and boots and belts drop from raids. So how is that every slot?

[Deleted]

My internet plan does not include TV for that very reason. I got the $40 internet only plan instead of the $70-80 internet + satellite plan and just got an antenna because I'm a CASUAL Tv watcher.

Did anyone call you "filthy casual" yet for doing so?

Thats the difference to gaming.

For some reason, gamers are the most critical and toxic crowd in the whole entertainment universe.

[Vyse]

True.

The game was hard, you had to grind and be good at your specc to earn something.

Nowadays you get everything thrown at you, even Legendaries.
If your not ilvl 700 in the first month of dinging 100, you are probably playing the game less then 1h/day.

It just takes a fraction of time to lvl to max level, to get gladiator ranking, to become good at your class,
to get a legendary, to get full epic equipment, to clear the content then it did in Vanilla/TBC/Wrath.

Where is the fun when you reached end game status after a month or two?


They should have invented Hearthstone earlier, let the casuals play it, and not touch WoW
so it stayed the way it was.

[Deleted]

True.

The game was hard, you had to grind and be good at your specc to earn something.

Nowadays you get everything thrown at you, even Legendaries.

Yeah, i cant even duck as often due to emote gcd as there are legendaries thrown at my gnome mage.

If your not ilvl 700 in the first month of dinging 100, you are probably playing the game less then 1h/day.

Which is a complete nogo, as noone, except you, should be able to get extrinsic rewards.

It just takes a fraction of time to lvl to max level, to get gladiator ranking

Yeah, there are so many gladiators running around in stormwind, that i often dont know whom of them actually really is a gladiator.. all those millions of gladiators.

Where is the fun when you reached end game status after a month or two?

You need one or two months to get to endgame? Thats a lot. Are you a casual gamer?

They should have invented Hearthstone earlier, let the casuals play it, and not touch WoW
so it stayed the way it was.

Yeah, as Hearthstone surely is the greatest casual MMORPG around.

[Dormie]

Did anyone call you "filthy casual" yet for doing so?

Thats the difference to gaming.

For some reason, gamers are the most critical and toxic crowd in the whole entertainment universe.

Well me watching Tv casually doesn't bring down the quality of Tv shows.