[LEGION] Brewmaster Discussion

[v1perz53]

Does Stagger still count as "armor" for the purposes of things that penetrate armor?

Things that ignore armor (due to being either magical damage, or armor-ignoring physical damage like bleeds) are affected by Stagger at half the normal coefficient.

Well, that at least defines how it will work going forward. Still not convinced their vision for ISB and stagger can replace regular DR CDs but at least it seems like there will be no (less) things that fully avoid the stagger mechanic.

[Evolved]

Because when you are offtank, you usually have ~zero resolve, so using guard at this resolve level is just wasting it. After glaive you have 250%+ and its a perfect time to guarding.

You have 2 Guards, you're not wasting it by using 1 early, it's preventative to ensure survival. If you're at 0 resolve, you weren't tanking anything important anyway so you would have both charges, unless you were wasting it. Either way, this isn't a thread about old content.

[stross01]

Did everyone stop giving a shit about testing?

Alpha realms and the feedback thread are dead as shit.

[Mokuna]

There isn't much to test to be honest, heroic dungeons are kinda faceroll with the flask/food/legendary now, few people are doing mythic + dungeons so out of raid testing there isn't a lot of relevant content

The feedback on this patch is mostly the same as before, they just buffed selfhealing and damage a lot( and expel harm improved the QoL a lot), which is really nice for dungeons but won't change much in a raiding situation, except if bosses are tuned to do low tank damage like most bosses in hfc are currently(compared to brf), if i have to repeat my feedback monks need another cd or a rework of the artifact trait, either it works on bosses abilities and it's effectively a 1 minute cd zen meditation which is really op, either it doesn't and it's weak in raids, and the 5 minutes cd fortifying brew won't cut it, especially when most tanks have a reliable 1/2/3 minutes cd

Also it's the legion thread, not sure why everyone is talking about Mannoroth and his glaive combo, which has already taken like 30 pages on the wod brewmaster thread (already way too much for a straigtht forward ability)

[stross01]

If the damage on it remains the same, you'll have enough HP to survive the entire combo and have half of your hp left. Not a big deal.

[gregstafelam]

One argument blizzard used about Legion tank design is:
Dont use old bosses to justify how bad/good is something they implemented on legion since bosses on legion are going to work "different"...
Makes sense but... I dont think blizzard is really going to follow this haha

[stross01]

One argument blizzard used about Legion tank design is:
Dont use old bosses to justify how bad/good is something they implemented on legion since bosses on legion are going to work "different"...
Makes sense but... I dont think blizzard is really going to follow this haha

They make this claim literally every expansion. Since I've started, in vanilla, it's always ended up the same.

THINGS WILL BE DIFFERENT

[Evolved]

There isn't much to test to be honest, heroic dungeons are kinda faceroll with the flask/food/legendary now, few people are doing mythic + dungeons so out of raid testing there isn't a lot of relevant content

The feedback on this patch is mostly the same as before, they just buffed selfhealing and damage a lot( and expel harm improved the QoL a lot), which is really nice for dungeons but won't change much in a raiding situation, except if bosses are tuned to do low tank damage like most bosses in hfc are currently(compared to brf), if i have to repeat my feedback monks need another cd or a rework of the artifact trait, either it works on bosses abilities and it's effectively a 1 minute cd zen meditation which is really op, either it doesn't and it's weak in raids, and the 5 minutes cd fortifying brew won't cut it, especially when most tanks have a reliable 1/2/3 minutes cd

This basically. There's only so many times I can run a heroic dungeon, and I refuse to continue to repeat feedback over and over.

If the damage on it remains the same, you'll have enough HP to survive the entire combo and have half of your hp left. Not a big deal.

Based on what? Unless they throw some wacky scaling in, you're not going to be sitting on those kinds of HP's.

[Ampere]

I did a couple heroics earlier and survivability felt ok. EH orb pickup was pretty handy. I still think the artifact ability is way too weak. As long as Rage of the Sleeper exists in it's current form, everything else will continue to seem sad by comparison.

While I think our artifact ability still needs iteration, it doesn't necessarily need to be as good as Rage of the Sleeper. Really have to view the tank kit as an overall thing, and Bears are just way overpowered right now for other reasons anyway.

I do think we need a better short cooldown though... something like Guard would work, sigh. lol

Did everyone stop giving a shit about testing?

Alpha realms and the feedback thread are dead as shit.

Fundamentally the spec isn't going to change and it's still not fun. It's cool that Blizzard listened and gave Expel Harm back, but I mean I did a few dungeons and wrote some words there's not much more to do unless they make more significant changes.

[stross01]

Based on what? Unless they throw some wacky scaling in, you're not going to be sitting on those kinds of HP's.

You're probably right, actually. I thought they'd give some passive HP boost since we lost the stance, but it seems we just triple our base stamina from 100-101.

Sta
Level Death Knight Druid Hunter Mage Monk Paladin Priest Rogue Shaman Warlock Warrior Demon Hunter
100 890 890 890 890 890 890 890 890 890 890 890 2915
101 2429 2429 2429 2429 2429 2429 2429 2429 2429 2429 2429 4252
102 2781 2781 2781 2781 2781 2781 2781 2781 2781 2781 2781 4401
103 3182 3182 3182 3182 3182 3182 3182 3182 3182 3182 3182 4600
104 3606 3606 3606 3606 3606 3606 3606 3606 3606 3606 3606 4821
105 3962 3962 3962 3962 3962 3962 3962 3962 3962 3962 3962 4975
106 4346 4346 4346 4346 4346 4346 4346 4346 4346 4346 4346 5156
107 4734 4734 4734 4734 4734 4734 4734 4734 4734 4734 4734 5342
108 5194 5194 5194 5194 5194 5194 5194 5194 5194 5194 5194 5599
109 5703 5703 5703 5703 5703 5703 5703 5703 5703 5703 5703 5906
110 6259 6259 6259 6259 6259 6259 6259 6259 6259 6259 6259 6259

Guess we just rely on Ironskin Brew or ignore it like we already do.

- - - Updated - - -

Fundamentally the spec isn't going to change and it's still not fun. It's cool that Blizzard listened and gave Expel Harm back, but I mean I did a few dungeons and wrote some words there's not much more to do unless they make more significant changes.

They'll just fix it after release like Mists of Pandaria like Warlords of Draenor like Blackrock Foundry like Hellfire Citadel.

[Cubcake]

...Two weeks ago i was completey destroyed by Manno M in less then 0.3 seconds. Had 100% HP (~700k) with "normal" Guard (~250k)...Thrust brought me down to 25%, didn't dodge the following Meleehit > Dead Monk x.x

My question is why did you take the blast and then the trust? Did the other tank forget to taunt or did you just do it backwards? If I am taking the blast I always take the first thrust and then the blast and have my co-tank taunt after the blast when I am in mid air. By doing it that way you can get a big guard up before your resolve drops to shit since you'll be tanking Manno before the combo starts. Ebrew the first thrust like normal and watch your guard bubble amount. If you fail to dodge and the hit eats up your guard bubble, just Dampen Harm and it will save you from the blast damage and likely reduce the hit so it doesn't fully kill your guard.

Hell, if things go south with your co-tank missing the taunt, you will still have a charge of Dampen Harm active and it will make the next thrust tickle when you're in mid air.

I should note I have no issues with the blast combo (outside of a blatant screw up on my part) and I run with either Mirror and Soul Cap or Mirror and Anzu depending on if we need the extra damage or not. Only time I switch to defensive trinkets is if we have a new healer as a trial or we are having someone fill in since one of our main healers wasn't able to make it that night. I will switch to WUE and Anzu or WUE and the BoA trinket since the sheild scales with resolve, is buffed from Manno being a demon and the CD is short enough that I can use it on every other combo.

[stross01]

If that's the death he's talking about, then it's just that he let his 0% resolve Guard get broken by infernals.

Also, the falling meteor things give you resolve.

[Cubcake]

If that's the death he's talking about, then it's just that he let his 0% resolve Guard get broken by infernals.

Also, the falling meteor things give you resolve.

Yea, I use the meteor crap to get a little resolve bump but my real worry was the part of the combo he is taking. The combo is a 1-2-3, I don't know why he would be taking the 2-3 part instead of the 1-2 part (if it's his turn to take the blast) unless the other tank screws up, is off dumping doom spike stacks and doesn't make it back, or is dead.

Unless he needs Diffuse Magic to soak wraths, (I use roll guards, use my pot, or call for an external), I was suggesting using Dampen Harm as a fail safe. It will technically reduce all 3 combo hits by 50% in the event that RNG is not on his side with the ebrew dodge so he really shouldn't ever die. He can use DH on combo one, a beefed up guard and an external for combo two, the BOA trinket absorb for combo 3 and then repeat that cycle endlessly.

[Kirsae]

....

Forgive me, I came here late; is this a Mannoroth discussion thread or a Brewmaster Legion thread?

[Saiyoran]

Forgive me, I came here late; is this a Mannoroth discussion thread or a Brewmaster Legion thread?

Shhh this is a Mannoroth thread didn't you hear???

[Cubcake]

Shhh this is a Mannoroth thread didn't you hear???

It was brought up so I was trying to help. How dare I try to be a nice guy and give some advice. Clearly my mistake.

[Saiyoran]

It was brought up so I was trying to help. How dare I try to be a nice guy and give some advice. Clearly my mistake.

It was only a joke friend, didn't mean to make people angry. Just a little strange that its been a lot of Mannoroth discussion on the last 2 pages. I understand the concern that spawned the discussion (mechanics that pierce armor going to be a huge issue for Brew, ala Glaive Combo), it was just kind of odd how discussion on the topic came up after the initial point was made. Sorry I pissed you or others off, didn't mean anything by it.

[Evolved]

While I think our artifact ability still needs iteration, it doesn't necessarily need to be as good as Rage of the Sleeper. Really have to view the tank kit as an overall thing, and Bears are just way overpowered right now for other reasons anyway.

I do think we need a better short cooldown though... something like Guard would work, sigh. lol

Right, that's kind of the point though. They already have the strong passive defenses, and have AM's + Ironbark to go along with it + 2 charges of their big cooldown. They also get thrown the strongest tank artifact ability on top of it?

Demon Hunter: oh, I spawned some healing orbs and did some barely noticeable damage.
Monk: oh, I dodged an attack and did a bit of damage.
Druid: I'm a tanking god, with the damage output of a Mage.

Having played the Guardian quite a lot, it really spoils the feeling of using the artifact on everyone else. Maybe it's compensation for having such a boring 3 button rotation.

Maybe we'll get lucky and see some more mechanical changes before Legion actually hits, but I'm not holding my breath.

[kofkof]

Maybe it's compensation for having such a boring 3 button rotation. .

BrM on alpha is the same. I ve been playing BrM since MoP at a "decent" level and I find druid rotation far more interesting and engaging than the monk rotation. You can get so much more "micro management" from talents on the druid in its current state compared to BrM. It's a joke.

I get it that fun and spec feeling is subjective but right now i don't think we should say that they have a boring rotation when you compare it to what BrMs have on alpha..

Tuning hasn't happened yey, they will nerf the artifact (at least the damage dealt because it's stupid) of the druid but thir toolkit is so strong.. And i find it far less boring than BrM.

[fringemoo]

...mechanics that pierce armor going to be a huge issue for Brew, ala Glaive Combo...

For what it's worth there was a recent post on the theorycrafting thread about it:

Q: Does Stagger still count as "armor" for the purposes of things that penetrate armor?
Celestalon: Things that ignore armor (due to being either magical damage, or armor-ignoring physical damage like bleeds) are affected by Stagger at half the normal coefficient.

That said the same inherent issues are still there, ie. no mitigation without ISB, sharing ISB and purifying brew, dodge mastery. Truthfully given the current %50 design of purify, it would also make sense to have it free ie. not sharing brew charges, perhaps add a 5s CD on it so you can't mindlessly macro it to spells.