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  1. #1261
    Deleted
    @Mannoroth discussion:
    It was just an exaple of a AM design around RNG.
    The try i was smashed was already a wipe (because 12 ppl disconnected short after the 2nd Doomlord) so i didn't soak orbs (which would probably save me)

    Except of the failed try i didn't have any problems there. It was just your speculation.
    So stop it please.

    For what it's worth there was a recent post on the theorycrafting thread about it:

    Q: Does Stagger still count as "armor" for the purposes of things that penetrate armor?
    Celestalon: Things that ignore armor (due to being either magical damage, or armor-ignoring physical damage like bleeds) are affected by Stagger at half the normal coefficient.
    I don't see the point why we are the only tanks without a full counting AM against physical damage, if they ignore armor (especially while we have no short time damage reduce), but it's better than nothing.
    Last edited by mmoc63c4b54c03; 2016-05-09 at 09:38 PM.

  2. #1262
    Quote Originally Posted by kofkof View Post
    BrM on alpha is the same. I ve been playing BrM since MoP at a "decent" level and I find druid rotation far more interesting and engaging than the monk rotation. You can get so much more "micro management" from talents on the druid in its current state compared to BrM. It's a joke.

    I get it that fun and spec feeling is subjective but right now i don't think we should say that they have a boring rotation when you compare it to what BrMs have on alpha..

    Tuning hasn't happened yey, they will nerf the artifact (at least the damage dealt because it's stupid) of the druid but thir toolkit is so strong.. And i find it far less boring than BrM.
    I don't think anyone has ever stated that the current BrM rotation on Alpha is interesting. I'm not sure what rotation "micro-management" you're having to do from talents. Pulverize? The fact that the passive mitigation makes it so damn strong only amplifies how dry the rotation is, because you're not having to constantly juggle AM's to stay alive. It's an opinion, one that I'm not alone in - even from Guardian mains. If you find it entertaining, great.

    I can't imagine that they're too worried about Mannoroth. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't allow a mechanic in Legion to bypass our only form of mitigation.

    Also: that was a quick turn around on a build.
    Last edited by Evolved; 2016-05-09 at 11:27 PM.

  3. #1263
    You said that the artifact on use of the druid is so good because their rotation is a 3 buttons one. BrM rotation is more boring and the artifact on use is not as awesome.

    They haven t tuned things correctly yet, maybe when they ll do so you ll have to press your AM and keep pulverize up who knows. That ll still be more complex than pressing ks on cd and tp to avoid being energy cap. Which is a 2 buttons rotation

    I was staying alive on the druid while being dced on several raid test. Doing nothing and staying alive i m well aware that their passive mitigation is too high. You are saying that their rotation is simple, i m telling you the BrM is not harder maybe we should also have a more interestîg on use artifact too then

  4. #1264
    Quote Originally Posted by kofkof View Post
    You said that the artifact on use of the druid is so good because their rotation is a 3 buttons one. BrM rotation is more boring and the artifact on use is not as awesome.

    They haven t tuned things correctly yet, maybe when they ll do so you ll have to press your AM and keep pulverize up who knows. That ll still be more complex than pressing ks on cd and tp to avoid being energy cap. Which is a 2 buttons rotation

    I was staying alive on the druid while being dced on several raid test. Doing nothing and staying alive i m well aware that their passive mitigation is too high. You are saying that their rotation is simple, i m telling you the BrM is not harder maybe we should also have a more interestîg on use artifact too then
    I was being facetious with the artifact/rotation comment.

    BrM has a bit more to it than pressing KS and TP. Unless of course you're ignoring BoF and Blackout Strike. Nobody is claiming BrM has an entertaining rotation, which has nothing to do with the Guardian rotation. In my opinion, they're both boring. One does not preclude the other.

    Anyone throwing down bets on the alpha build? This was a pretty short time between builds. I'm betting a bit more tuning, perhaps toning down tanks AOE damage a bit.

  5. #1265
    Nothing for us outside of a glyph. I'm sure there were plenty of bug fixes and what not as well (I remember seeing something about GotOx not working right?). If there are changes to be done, I'd expect it next build. Also curious until how long they move it into beta and decide everything is mostly fine mechanically.
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  6. #1266
    Quote Originally Posted by Leblue View Post
    Nothing for us outside of a glyph. I'm sure there were plenty of bug fixes and what not as well (I remember seeing something about GotOx not working right?). If there are changes to be done, I'd expect it next build. Also curious until how long they move it into beta and decide everything is mostly fine mechanically.
    Gift of the Ox works perfectly most of the time, but the orbs don't spawn enough in solo/pvp settings.

    Special Delivery still isn't working.

    EDIT: Special Delivery isn't doing damage, but it is applying a new debuff to the target that allows Breath of Fire to work!
    Last edited by stross01; 2016-05-10 at 03:22 AM.

  7. #1267
    Quote Originally Posted by kofkof View Post
    I was staying alive on the druid while being dced on several raid test. Doing nothing and staying alive i m well aware that their passive mitigation is too high. You are saying that their rotation is simple, i m telling you the BrM is not harder maybe we should also have a more interestîg on use artifact too then
    I don't think anyone is calling Rage of the Sleeper interesting, it is just very strong. Honestly, Flaming Keg is technically more interesting than RotS, it is just far far weaker. RotS is just a thing you use then passive stuff happens and things are better for you in lots of ways. Flaming Keg at least has aiming considerations and timing considerations. It is more involved, but again nowhere near as good. Though I wouldn't mind if Monk artifact ability was as amazing as druid one...

    Quote Originally Posted by stross01 View Post
    Gift of the Ox works perfectly most of the time, but the orbs don't spawn enough in solo/pvp settings.

    Special Delivery still isn't working.

    EDIT: Special Delivery isn't doing damage, but it is applying a new debuff to the target that allows Breath of Fire to work!
    This is a huge fear I have overall with tanking in legion. Honestly, one of the things I enjoy about playing a tank is feeling very hardy and unkillable solo, being able to grab one of those harder rares by the dark portal in tanaan and have no issues, do huge AoE pulls in the world, or go and solo old raids. I am very worried I won't be able to do much of this in legion. The formula for GotO by definition means you will not get enough orbs to survive without outside heals (aka solo environment) as one spawns every 100% HP damage taken. This was a great change for group content where you are being healed, but a hard hit for solo. Not really sure what they could do about that though, I guess I'll just have to be ok with not doing things like soloing Lei Shen on my 100 BrM which was super fun and hectic but only possible because of stuff like resolve and tank self healing. I actually fear many DPS classes will end up better for soloing than some of the tanks with less self healing.

  8. #1268
    Quote Originally Posted by v1perz53 View Post
    I don't think anyone is calling Rage of the Sleeper interesting, it is just very strong. Honestly, Flaming Keg is technically more interesting than RotS, it is just far far weaker. RotS is just a thing you use then passive stuff happens and things are better for you in lots of ways. Flaming Keg at least has aiming considerations and timing considerations. It is more involved, but again nowhere near as good. Though I wouldn't mind if Monk artifact ability was as amazing as druid one...



    This is a huge fear I have overall with tanking in legion. Honestly, one of the things I enjoy about playing a tank is feeling very hardy and unkillable solo, being able to grab one of those harder rares by the dark portal in tanaan and have no issues, do huge AoE pulls in the world, or go and solo old raids. I am very worried I won't be able to do much of this in legion. The formula for GotO by definition means you will not get enough orbs to survive without outside heals (aka solo environment) as one spawns every 100% HP damage taken. This was a great change for group content where you are being healed, but a hard hit for solo. Not really sure what they could do about that though, I guess I'll just have to be ok with not doing things like soloing Lei Shen on my 100 BrM which was super fun and hectic but only possible because of stuff like resolve and tank self healing. I actually fear many DPS classes will end up better for soloing than some of the tanks with less self healing.
    If you start a 1v1 fight in pvp, and the artifact is disabled, and you don't have Healing Elixirs, you're not going to get a single Ox ob by design.

    If you have Obstinate Determination on the artifact, it's probably impossible do die in old raid solo content.

    Healing Elixirs with crit gear is pretty fuckin OP though. Sucks that you can't really take any other talents in that row, though. Healing Elixirs is basically necessary.

  9. #1269
    Ahh I actually forgot about obstinate determination, that sets my mind at ease a little. Assuming there is an ICD on it, but can't find it anywhere. I agree about healing elixirs, especially after the nerf to diffuse magic. I almost wish they would make elixirs baseline and add something else there, or I fear they will nerf elixirs if it is the only one taken. I also hope crit gearing ends up being optimal in Legion, I always enjoy crit based tanks, and a nice beefy Keg Smash crit feels so good. And when crit has a nice defensive bonus to top it off that is ideal to me.

  10. #1270
    Quote Originally Posted by v1perz53 View Post
    Ahh I actually forgot about obstinate determination, that sets my mind at ease a little. Assuming there is an ICD on it, but can't find it anywhere. I agree about healing elixirs, especially after the nerf to diffuse magic. I almost wish they would make elixirs baseline and add something else there, or I fear they will nerf elixirs if it is the only one taken. I also hope crit gearing ends up being optimal in Legion, I always enjoy crit based tanks, and a nice beefy Keg Smash crit feels so good. And when crit has a nice defensive bonus to top it off that is ideal to me.
    There is no ICD on it at this time. You can bounce around 35% forever.

  11. #1271
    @Mannoroth: Looks like a lot of Brewmasters were traumatized by mythic Mannoroth. There's one way it's relevant to a Legion discussion, which is that it stinks when your spec has acute deficiencies compared to all other tanks on a particular fight, largely because of how your mitigation works compared to theirs. This point does not require much discussion.

    To those being rude / talking down to people on the basis that they should have done x, y, or z, or acting like Mannoroth was easy or Brewmasters weren't weak on that fight: please chill out. Even if you're right, there's no reason to act that way. And you're almost certainly not right. Mannoroth is obviously harder for Brewmasters than other tanks, for reasons thoroughly discussed over many pages of these forums, although it depends somewhat on your role on the fight.

    What's really silly is looking at a single death on mythic Mannoroth and picking it apart unsolicited. The "right" choice in a given situation depends on a bunch of things: (1) strat; (2) other players' performances; (3) recent RNG (melee hits taken, orb spawns, life span of a Doom Lord you were just tanking, amount of time to get back in position, incidental other damage, etc.); (4) gear; (5) talents; (6) and so on. It's pointless to give unsolicited advice without getting more context. My personal favorite comment is "just pick up an orb." The awesome brilliance of this suggestion is almost too much for my mortal mind to contemplate. Oh wait, unless there wasn't an orb to pick up. Darn.

    If you think the fight is a no-brainer, then try this: Two-tank it, handle all the Doom Lords yourself, and soak 60-80 wrath stacks (during which you take way more damage from the ring than it reduces), with many group members who fail mechanics and under-perform on damage, even though you're pushing a fast-damage strat. That was my role, and it wasn't easy. Yes, when I played nearly perfectly the entire fight (with no down time) and didn't get a string of bad RNG, then it felt pretty "easy." But a little bad RNG or a tiny mistake or two, and it was trouble. If you can do the fight this way for 500 pulls without dying a few times to mistakes / RNG, then I guess you've earned the right to call every one else a shitter. But if that's your attitude, then people won't like you, and they probably won't listen to you either. Especially when it's off-topic in the first place.

    Here's an idea: Start a thread that says "I will pick apart your Mannoroth logs and tell you why you're dumb," and talk to whoever shows up.

  12. #1272
    Quote Originally Posted by Saiyoran View Post
    It was only a joke friend, didn't mean to make people angry. Just a little strange that its been a lot of Mannoroth discussion on the last 2 pages. I understand the concern that spawned the discussion (mechanics that pierce armor going to be a huge issue for Brew, ala Glaive Combo), it was just kind of odd how discussion on the topic came up after the initial point was made. Sorry I pissed you or others off, didn't mean anything by it.
    No worries, you're fine. Reading sarcasm through text can be a pain sometimes. Maybe a well placed emjoi next time? LOL

    In all seriousness, I only chimed in about Manno because NirmalaZdC seemed like he could use a little help from what he said. I do share the same concerns with how the armor piercing will affect us in Legion, but in all honesty my brewmaster is likely going to be a bench warmer, so it won't matter. I just keep coming back to the forums to read the testers info in hopes that some miraculous change makes me interested again. Even with the Expel Harm change, nothing I have read has given me the impression that we are on par with other tanks.
    Druid Armory: Furlesque - STK

  13. #1273
    Deleted
    Last words i'll lose about that pointless discussion:
    In all seriousness, I only chimed in about Manno because NirmalaZdC seemed like he could use a little help from what he said.
    I never said that. With no single word. It was only your speculation.

    The only thing i said was that it's possible to getting wracked by Glaive + Meleehit through Guard and Elusive Brew while all other tanks just laugh about that because they have a solide, non rng AM.
    The only times i was killed by Glaive was (rarely) during really early pulls on this boss (avg. 731 GS, no WUE) and the one time with 744 GS after the half raid DCd and i didn't take the GotOs.

    P.S.: stross's Log was from my 2nd Mythic Mannoroth Kill and jeha, i was dreaming in this try.

  14. #1274
    Quote Originally Posted by NirmalaZdC View Post
    Last words i'll lose about that pointless discussion:
    I never said that. With no single word. It was only your speculation.

    The only thing i said was that it's possible to getting wracked by Glaive + Meleehit through Guard and Elusive Brew while all other tanks just laugh about that because they have a solide, non rng AM.
    The only times i was killed by Glaive was (rarely) during really early pulls on this boss (avg. 731 GS, no WUE) and the one time with 744 GS after the half raid DCd and i didn't take the GotOs.

    P.S.: stross's Log was from my 2nd Mythic Mannoroth Kill and jeha, i was dreaming in this try.
    Then I misunderstood. It happens. Btw, I didn't look at the log, I was going simply off the fact that you said you got crushed out of nowhere and I was offering up some suggestions so it would be a non-issue. If I came off as belittling, that wasn't my intent and I apologize for that and for taking this out of context. I agree that they have more reliable and non-RNG based AM which makes Manno much worse for us by design. My suggestions were to eliminate the "oh shit, I didn't dodge the first thrust and my guard is gone" aspects of that. Anyways, enough beating a dead horse, carry on!
    Druid Armory: Furlesque - STK

  15. #1275
    Bloodsail Admiral keqe's Avatar
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    So, to try to "rerail" this thread.

    I went to do PG for fun+to unlock HC queue. (still seems to need it regardless of what they say).

    As many know there are those little vermin who do a bleed on you. It is very stable source of damage that ramps up relatively high. On damage income (and healing income that the NPC does), playing brewmaster was kind of fun. With the new talent I tried to stay around 40% HP, Used IsB to stay there if needed and healed with high income of orbs. It kind of was a fun minigame to play with.

    But, this situation will NEVER happen in real raids. Which for us in my opinion is sad, but that situation would be quite boring for every other tank, as they'd either be bored or just die.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gestopft View Post
    For everything else, there's Brewmastercard

  16. #1276
    @TubbyCubby: Very classy. Thank you. (Seriously, no sarcasm.)

  17. #1277
    Quote Originally Posted by Brewschii View Post
    @TubbyCubby: Very classy. Thank you. (Seriously, no sarcasm.)
    Thanks. I try not to be an asshole since there is no need and won't get me anywhere. There are always things to learn and multiple ways to go about things. While there might be some things I accomplish better than others here, I am sure plenty of you all blow me out of the water and could teach me quite a lot and open my mind to things I never even considered. That was my intent with the trinket blurb, in the event it wasn't already a consideration! I enjoy helping if and when I am able to.

    Anyways, Legion Beta releases on Thursday. This quote, "Beta was going to start in November, but in the industry beta is a polished demo almost. The Legion alpha was nowhere near polished, so it was called an alpha."

    Do you all think that was referring to the timeline of the original Alpha release or do you think that the Beta release on Thursday might bring about some additional and unmentioned brewmaster changes? (aside from number tuning). I missed some of the stream due to work (/shakesfist), so I missed some fo the context. I assume it's the former, not the latter.
    Last edited by Cubcake; 2016-05-10 at 05:33 PM.
    Druid Armory: Furlesque - STK

  18. #1278
    Bloodsail Admiral keqe's Avatar
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    It just meant the "promise" that "beta will start shortly after blizzcon". Obviously it didn't literally happen as we are still in alpha. By industry he means that in game industry "beta" is just a word for practically finished game that is just marketing for early access and stuff. The real purpose of beta (feedback) doesn't exist for most games anymore.

    So to keep the word "beta" about the same as in other games in the industry, they named the "real testing" phase alpha.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gestopft View Post
    For everything else, there's Brewmastercard

  19. #1279
    Beta is still used for finding bugs, not only promoting. But not for mechanical changes normally.
    Well, beta on thursday means, we won't get any more mechanical changes... great

  20. #1280
    Quote Originally Posted by TubbyCubby View Post
    Do you all think that was referring to the timeline of the original Alpha release or do you think that the Beta release on Thursday might bring about some additional and unmentioned brewmaster changes? (aside from number tuning).
    I'd still expect some tweaks to the talents during beta, but otherwise probably just tuning.

    Remember, Celestalon said they thought Brewmaster was "done" 2 builds ago and the forum exploded. After they announced the reintroduction of Expel Harm and GotO formula change, things calmed down. I would take that as meaning the core of Brewmaster is "done" again. Personally that bums me out, but it is what it is.

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