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  1. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by Nexx226 View Post
    Why would I want anything at all to be a nuisance when I play a game to have fun? It has nothing to do with being lazy. If you wanted to be a top end raider in BC you had to have JC and enchanting which were some of the more expensive professions to level. That part wasn't fun for me but raiding with the best of the best doing the hardest content was fun, and again this was required to do that. The gathering professions simply had an item drop that taught you the next level but the crafting professions had a short quest line that had to be completed.
    Fun is subjective. Fun is faciliated by mechanics. Fun is not faciliated by traits that make up RPG elements. When you complain that a given task in an MMORPG is boring or tedious, then you are not complaining about the task at hand but how it has been implemented.

    As I replied and you failed to consider: it's about having the mechanics in place to faciliate solutions to problems that might make things such as bag space a tedious mechanic in an MMORPG. Such as warehouses or banks where you can safekeep loot and items.

    Yes, humans will always pick the path of least resistance, we are by definition lazy creatures. It has everything to do with being lazy. If the mechanics are not in place to involve the player and make him think about in-game repurcussions/consequences and solve them creatively (other than tossing items away), then the tedium begins. Why? Because there is no engaging or creating solution to the problem. It's just present. That is true tedium. Tedious things like weight limitation can incentivise immersion and meaningful choices if mechanics are in place to support player choice on how to approach the problem.

    Do you understand this logic?

    There is no way in a million years that you will ever find activities everyone find enjoyable or engaging. Anything and everything can be tedious. Or annoying. It isn't so by nature, but because on its own it holds no meaning.

    Killing a specific number of a certain mobs is tedious, why is it so? Because it is an arbitrary limitation with no failure state (if you disregard the fact that failing to meet the requirement is a failure state) or solution which gates your progression behind time.

    How can it be made more immersive or less arbitrary? You can introduce time limitations. An NPC could require a set amount of cloth lootable from humanoid corpses in a nearby location before 20 minutes has passed. Reason? Another NPC would not receive treatment on time. In Darnassus, the starting zone for night elves, one of the first dozen quests you did actually had this system in place. You had to carry an item to another NPC within the time limit or your quest failed. Unfortunately, such quests would be dependant on mob density (it would be tedious/annoying if you were lower level and got constantly killed while trying to complete the quest) or pure RNG (the cloth never dropped).

    People would always find something to bitch and moan about in WoW. The game is old, they just want to consume content efficiently, as the idea of exploring is long dead in WoW. That makes it very hard to design meaningful choices and quests in relation to RPG elements. Q.Q this, Q.Q that. The forums are littered with such an entitled attitude. The terms tedious, annoying and nuisance are one of my pet peeves in WoW. They use it as an excuse for removing factors and traits that are RPG related just to make things more convenient, instead of setting up mechanics or creative solutions to the tedium it represents.

    Players quite literally need to be forced to immerse themselves or have fun. There are exceptions to this, but usually the exceptions are based on sandbox elements, where construction or decision is left in the player's hands. Minecraft, etc. Aka: fun lies in choice. For a common thing to be fun it needs to offer meaningful choice. For weight limitations to be an engaging factor in immersing the player, the player needs to be able to choose how to resolve the problem in more than one way.
    Last edited by Atelniar; 2016-05-10 at 11:22 AM.
    There is common sense and ignorance. Choose one and accept the consequences.

  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaelorian View Post
    To the people saying: "Yeah but you can still inspect people!!!" - you are seriously incapable of knowing what it is to be human apparantly as you've shown in many other threads. Humans do not work that way. How do they work? Well you see someone running around in gear X and you know that players progress and can assume a certain skilllevel that goes along with it. However if transmog is there, you won't be remotely interested to check that players gear out. You won't bother to inspect. When transmog was not a thing yet, I inspected more people. Think about it. What is negative about this you ask? Well it removes the value of gear itself. It removes "epeen" (epeen is not always bad). It leads to less conversations between people however brief that has to do with progress. I for one was GM, before transmog was a thing, I would get recruits just from them looking at my gear. But now they won't even inspect anymore. So that is lost recruitmentpotential right there. Is this a huge factor? No. It all however, adds up.



    My experience is the complete opposite of yours. Now I inspect a LOT of people if I find their transmog interesting, to see what that cool piece of armor is. So that I might use it for one of my own transmogs on one of my characters. Before transmog, most players looked pretty shitty, everyone was wearing some eyesore mismatch armor, all of the very recent expansion, so you knew most of the pieces anyways. Nothing interesting or inspiring there, no thought went into it.


    And like I said earlier -- if you DO have the current newest mythic gear, you can still choose to wear that and not mog over it. Or maybe create a mog with a mix of cool new mythic pieces and older pieces, so that it actually looks nice and not mismatched. No one took that away from you. So for someone who wants to be admired for his neweset raiding acheivements, nothing changed.


    Also, before Transmog, I would look at the upcoming dungeon and raid gear and then decide which class I want to level and which not. Because if they had ugly gear, I wouldn't want to play that class, and if they had pretty gear, I had to use the chance to wear it -- because after the current tier or expansion, that pretty gear wouldn't be able to be worn, outside of roleplay occasions or something.

  3. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by Nexx226 View Post
    How does the visual of your enemies gear have anything to do with you losing a match?
    This is what I was talking about ↓ And I specifically said in terms of battlegrounds and how it changes the way to team responds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ishayu View Post
    The addition of transmog removes several features for this reason. For example, a feature could be that you could look at other players directly to assess their power level and skill within at least one part of the game at a glance without having to inspect them. That feature is now gone. That's literally the very first thing I brought up.

  4. #284
    Deleted
    I've seen/heard this argument before, I have a grognard (Enthusiast of older editions of a game) friend who swears by the vanilla experience who keeps saying he doesn't like the idea of transmog because he wants to be able to view a players progression at a glance. I can see his point, it's a decent one for PvP primarily and for social power-hierarchy secondarily...
    .. .. Buuuuuuut.

    I'll never be able to agree with him that the cost of looking like an absolute tool before you're technically done with a tier is at all any kind of good motivation to finish up and abandon your old look. It is something we went through because there was no option back in the day, but now we actually have the choice to pick for ourselves how our hero is going to be perceived at a glance rather than letting the system dictate it for us.

    This might just be the artist in me speaking, but agency in how you present yourself lets you convey so much more than 'Oh this guy has gotten Mother Sharaz in Black temple'. Should we really limit ourselves to a range of pure progression like that? Is safeguarding this power-hierarchy where instance clearers/Gladiator-contenders are the only ones allowed to play at full efficiency while looking good really worth taking away our capacity to use one of the myriad custom looks and old tier we think speak of our own/our characters taste?

  5. #285
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    So you have no proof, You have stated nothing but opinions. Thats fine glad we cleared that up.

    I am more into the story of warcraft, same for many games actually. Transmog is one of the few features I think has done nothing but be positive for the game. For me personally I cannot wait to get the new dressing room in legion. I can finally have bank space once again.
    I love the story aswell it's the reason i started playing.
    Why would i need any references for opening a thread like this? it's open for discussion and that's it. Many things i bring up is based on sub numbers getting lowered wich we all knows. And straight up content patches that so many people believe have ruined the game. So many people that you dont even understand it's more then the current playerbase.

  6. #286
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Rurts View Post
    Indeed, but with all the semantic arguments, the context has been lost: the original discussion was that seeing the gear on a character is a more immersive way of knowing what content they're doing than inspecting them. Immersion is subjective, but that is a point, I'll grant you that. The "world as UI" was a counter to that, i.e. the other dude basically said that for *them* both things are just immersive or unimmersive, since they're both meta. Which is also a fair point.



    You jest, but I distinctly remember a whine thread about Blizzard RUINING the game by... adding the new attack animations in Legion that also go on old models. So I guess reality is one step further than your hyperbole ;P
    Rule number 1, People will moan/whine about EVERYTHING. No changes, any changes many changes

    Transmog or Vanity slots were community idea and blizzard integrated it and now everyone loves it. It is a core feature devised by community. It is 100% optional content... and people complain.

  7. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by RedGamer030 View Post
    I actually want more quality of life changes to the transmogrification system, such as an "Outfit loadout" where you save a particular transmog outfit and it stays on your character even when you get new gear and "Saved Outfits" where you can save your favorite transmog looks and switch between them (for a minor gold fee) at either the Ethereal in the capital cities or the one Grand Expedition Yak vendor.
    There was discussion of us having something similar to equipment manager-like sets.
    But that seems to have changed.
    Instead it appears it will function much like it does now, only with the wardrobe functionality.
    Where it has to be done at an NPC or Yak Vendor.

    The Yak will then allow almost "on-the-fly" adjustments, but still a long way short of the discussed functionality.
    Either for technical reasons, or some desire for a cost to remain.
    Last edited by ComputerNerd; 2016-05-10 at 11:21 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    Your forgot to include the part where we blame casuals for everything because blizzard is catering to casuals when casuals got jack squat for new content the entire expansion, like new dungeons and scenarios.
    Quote Originally Posted by Reinaerd View Post
    T'is good to see there are still people valiantly putting the "Ass" in assumption.

  8. #288
    Quote Originally Posted by Ishayu View Post
    I know what a user interface is. I program the darn things for a living.

    And no, a user interface != contents. On a forum, for example, the actual text of a post is not part of the UI, but how it is presented is part of the UI.

    So when I say the game world is not UI, what I obviously mean is that the actual content of the world is not a UI. The fact that you can click on players and have action bars and health bars and minimaps etc THAT is UI - but the appearance of someone's armor or the hill outside Ironforge is not UI.

    That clear?

    Moving on to features the game has lost: You have a very narrow view of what constitutes a feature. A feature is not just "You can do X", a feature is how the game reacts to you doing X.

    The addition of transmog removes several features for this reason. For example, a feature could be that you could look at other players directly to assess their power level and skill within at least one part of the game at a glance without having to inspect them. That feature is now gone. That's literally the very first thing I brought up.

    There are also several and quite large pieces of content that are gone: The entire vanilla world, hundreds of spells and abilities, talent trees, ... I don't even know where to start. To ask me to name a single feature the game has lost because you can't see any yourself is frankly frightening.
    Gears does not equal skills. Not anymore. So you're feature was already gone before transmog.

  9. #289
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Ishayu View Post
    The addition of transmog removes several features for this reason. For example, a feature could be that you could look at other players directly to assess their power level and skill within at least one part of the game at a glance without having to inspect them. That feature is now gone. That's literally the very first thing I brought up.
    You named *one* feature. Even ignoring the "skill" part (which is clearly bogus, in the world of 40-man classic raids, at least several people per group were just warm bodies being carried), this is a minor, inconsequential feature only important for a single niche (tryhards who feel the need to judge people based on gear), while it also adds numerous other features for many niches (raiding, old content and open world grinding, goldmaking), even creating a niche of its own (mog collecting, which is a thing now and will be further improved and strengthened in Legion). THIS is the crux of the argument, this is what people have been pointing out since page one. You just choose to ignore it, becase "muh tradition". And this is fine, you have every right to live in the past, just like other players have every right to not give a flying fuck about your need to label people based on the color of their pants ;]
    Last edited by mmoc4588e6de4f; 2016-05-10 at 11:26 AM.

  10. #290
    Quote Originally Posted by Bambs View Post
    So in all your years of playing the game (I assume) you only met two other players? Ever?
    Of course not. I'm pointing out that you aren't defining your terms correctly and is therefore writing complete nonsense.

  11. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by ThunderTaco View Post
    I understand your point OP, I also remember going back to Ironforge to learn new spells and seeing that awesome T2 rogue or warrior. It motivated me to go on and eventually get into raids and have my own set just to show off to other players and get rid of the multicolor non consistent parts of gear I was wearing at the time.

    But ... but ... how has that changed? It's even better now:

    a) You can still see people with the newest mythic T19 or whatever in the city and say "oh boy, I wanna get that as well, let's start raiding!"

    b) You can also see people with really cool transmogs, especially when you're still a little leveling noob, and ask them "how and where did you get that cool gear ".

    The thing is, nowadays you see so many MORE and DIFFERENT cool sets out and about. Previously, you only saw the gear of the current expansion. That same brown Wrath dungeon gear on everyone, and the same 1-2 tier sets .... nowadays, everyone is wearing a mix of gear from Vanilla, BC, Wrath, Cata, MoP and WoD. Mix of dungeon gear, raid gear, PVP gear, quest gear, craft gear. So the amount of cool armor you see is much bigger, the chances you see something that really impresses you are much bigger.

  12. #292
    Deleted
    I can obviously only speak for myself, but ever since transmog was released to WoW, the looks of PvP gear and raiding gear has been drastically reduced. It's almost as if they know that 99% of people will transmog away from it anyways, so why bother introducing new and great looking gear?

  13. #293
    Quote Originally Posted by Cellineth View Post
    I can obviously only speak for myself, but ever since transmog was released to WoW, the looks of PvP gear and raiding gear has been drastically reduced. It's almost as if they know that 99% of people will transmog away from it anyways, so why bother introducing new and great looking gear?
    But, but, but... MELON SHOULDERS!!!
    There is common sense and ignorance. Choose one and accept the consequences.

  14. #294
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Ishayu View Post
    Of course not. I'm pointing out that you aren't defining your terms correctly and is therefore writing complete nonsense.
    And by defining the terms correctly you mean I am not using your definition of an MMORPG?

  15. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by Ishayu View Post
    I'd MUCH rather have a "strange looking combination of gear" (it's usually not that strange really, except for in tBC) than look literally the same from 1 to 100, which is what you do now.

    Au contraire. Transmog removed that problem. From Wrath to very recently, most leveling players did indeed look the same, cause they were wearing heirlooms. Then Transmog came, but it made heirlooms soulbound, so that made most people not mog their heirlooms.

    Since the relatively recent heirloom change, you can now transmog your heirlooms to your heart's content. I do like the oldschool leveling thing where you wear the gear that you get, so I transmog my heirlooms with the gear I get while leveling. If it looks somewhat cool. Cause I have choice!

  16. #296
    Quote Originally Posted by Betongjocke View Post
    Once upon a time in WoW you could actually see if a player was good or bad judging by their appearience
    You still can. How do you transmog yourself into Elite PVP gear or Mythic PVE gear without owning it?
    If you are a good player and want to show it off, you can. But you should not be forced to.

    Edit: Also you could just use a ilvl addon for it.
    Last edited by Musta Kyy; 2016-05-10 at 11:35 AM.
    | Ryzen R7 5800X | Radeon RX 6800 |

  17. #297
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Cellineth View Post
    I can obviously only speak for myself, but ever since transmog was released to WoW, the looks of PvP gear and raiding gear has been drastically reduced. It's almost as if they know that 99% of people will transmog away from it anyways, so why bother introducing new and great looking gear?
    Your subjective opinion. My main is a warlock, since Cata, we've gained some of the best sets (Pandaria tier 1, WoD tier 1 and 2, some great pvp pieces, some really awesome weapon models). Same on my paladin, same on my warrior, priest is a goblin so it doesn't matter, hunter is wearing mixed vanilla/tbc non-tier sets mogged over the looms atm, but I liked the SoO hunter set, so I'll be sure to grab it later... and so on.

  18. #298
    I love how people like OP always try to package "Idea's" in a way that makes it look like it is in everyone's interest.
    When it's blatantly obvious it only fulfills something in their own personal self centered agenda.

  19. #299
    Deleted
    I accually agree with OP to a degree, in short I liked it back in vanilla to see good geared players in the main city.
    However since this transmog feature is in the game you cant take it away from the players anymore.
    I personnally barely use the transmog feature only when my girlfriend has enough of me walking in random pieces of gear she transmogs my character.
    There is one think I would like blizzard to change its related to a minor degree to this subject, I would like to have blizzard remove the epic quality of dungeon gear and make it back to rare quality. This way we can clearly see where players get their gear from.

  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by Nexx226 View Post
    I get what you mean and I suppose I'd be a bit bias then since I've always found leveling/farming boring and the current state of warcraft has done a good job of making that a less mundane task for someone like me. Most people I've personally interacted with in my history of playing has had similar views but I suppose I only ever really played with higher end raiders who wanted to focus on that aspect of the game more than leveling alts or professions. I really don't even play the game for its RPG aspect and don't really play RPGs often in general. I guess to me something like bag space, would is obviously a real life thing people would be concerned about when deciding what items to keep, isn't a fun thing to have to keep in mind. But I could see how others disagree. I think this is a feature in fallout and elder scrolls so I guess it's fine for some games. I guess I'm satisfied with very limited RPG elements since I'm not really interested in them in general. SWTOR is actually one of the few I really enjoyed. The whole light/dark side is one of my favorite RPG elements.
    And no one should tell you that you are wrong in interacting with WoW like you do. Raiding is a thing, the game has content designed to specifically humor your idea of what is fun.

    For me the idea of fun can be represented by something mundane which turns into a hectic and adrenaline-fueled situation. Imagine riding your mount into a forest and leaving it close to the road, imagine looting so many corpses that your character is overloaded and constantly chased by quickly respawning mobs while you try to rush back to your mount to unload some of the movement-restricting loot that has value without tossing it aside. Imagine that the mount then comes under attack, and the more time you spend fighting off the mobs surrounding you the longer it takes to get to the horse, but if you don't you may die. Imagine how you may have to choose not to loot the mobs you kill to get to that mount in time before it dies. Imagine how you can simply loot it all and let your mount die, but then slowly stumble your way to a storage house the next 15 minutes as punishment.

    Those are choices, they make mundane situations and RPG-elements relevant. WoW doesn't have much of that, as an RPG it's rather unimpressive and has been watered down over the years to faciliate players who deem these elements tedious. Now, that is a problem for an MMORPG.

    Especially when the solution is to render the elements useless or remove them, rather than expanding upon them and making them interesting.

    I say this as someone who isn't an altoholic or too big into questing. I simply like making meaningful choices. I also like PvP. Raiding doesn't usually strike my fancy. I still respect those who raid and their viewpoints, but for me the fun can be found elsewhere. There was a time when WoW faciliated that, it barely does these days. A lot of optional content that was to some degree relevant to progress a character (mostly professions and reputations with actual rewards - PvP factions, for example) has been watered down in some aspects.
    Last edited by Atelniar; 2016-05-10 at 11:55 AM.
    There is common sense and ignorance. Choose one and accept the consequences.

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