Watcher's post about diversity of rewards

[Coconut]

Reins of the Kor'kron War Wolf
MOP Challenge mode mounts
Grove Warden (Sure there will be recolors but they'll come next expac)

Both removed with no chance for PvPers. I'm not complaining, I'm totally fine with PvPers having no access to it because we don't do PvE. The same should apply in reverse.

also
all those currently guaranteed mythic mounts become less than 1% in the same raid. How about this, you get a 0.1% chance to drop Gladiator mounts of the last expansions after crossing 1.6k rating in the current arena brackets which lets be serious is as easy as doing old raids.

Seems similar, right.

Also that's not whining. That's asking for a valid change. Imagine if you did Mythic in current expansion and it dropped Goats in different colors for every new raid. I'm sure Mythic raiders would be okay with that.

- All those mounts were much easier to get than gladiator mounts, and were available half an expansion or more instead of a single short season. A lot of people also freely sold carries, the raid moose going for as low as 50k, showing how hard they are to get. Will you carry me to Glad for 50k?

- All of them, with the exception of MoP Challenge modes, have recolors or variants with a different armor. The wolf has the vicious mount, the yeti has the Minion of Grumpus, the moose has a lot of mounts coming in Legion. I'm not asking for more than that with infernals.

- I never supported removing mounts to begin with, even though I have them, and I have expressed this opinion several times when the issue was brought up.

- It's funny you equate 1% drops from soloable raids with 0.1% at 1600 rating.

- Whining about the unicorns was all about a purely subjective preference. Did you whine in Cata when all you got was tired drakes? If you are entitled to whine that the cool factor isn't high enough because you had nether drakes, frost wyrms, etc. before, I am entitled to whine that gladiator mounts never had unique models. Give PvE-ers infernals as well. Fair?

I'm honestly curious on what part(s) exactly are double standards in your mind.

When I read the response, I get what I already knew was true. Most players only look at things from their perspective and when something doesn't work for them, it's wrong and needs to be fixed and all their like minded friends agree. They have had expensive mounts in the games since Wrath, this time around the mounts are even more expensive than before, but it seems obvious they made a mistake with the amount of gold that can be earned in WOD and now they must correct that with more drastic means.

A screw up on their part? Sure I'll let you have that. But where is the double standard? How is this just PR spin? Do you want them to just come out and say"Holy shit, we fucked up beyond belief in WOD and now we have to do crazy things to make it right! We're so stupid, please forgive us!"

The inconsistency is that sometimes they listen to complaints and make arbitrary changes, sometimes they bring up excuses. I can give you some examples:

- They recently changed Legion gladiator unicorns with infernals because twitter-active PvP-ers complained they don't want my little pony rewards. Arbitrary wild swing in response to a very subjective complaint.

- They changed the way bloody coins were obtained, completely destroying the timeless isle item and buffing the bg one, because people complained about it.

- They added the tokens for Haala mounts to a garrison mission, so people could easily collect them.

- People complained Glory of the Pandaria Hero was hard to get due to Show Me Your Moves, so they removed that achievement from the requirements.

On the other hand, when people pressured to increase the spawn rate of Galleon and Oondasta because farmers were getting tired of camping them and the resulting realm hopping hurts us all, Watcher tweeted a very tongue in cheek suggestion of reducing the drop rate of the mounts ten times (they are already 0.1%) if people want faster spawn rates. And now, the spider gold sink is all about varied gameplay and not accounting for taste.

So a few inconsistencies do exist... Not that I believe in bashing devs. I largely enjoy the game and see my criticism as a way to fine tune it and maybe promote my own tastes a little bit, since changes based on the subjective input of a minority are apparently being made.

I think part of it is also a sign of respect towards the artists and animators who make us so passionate about these mounts, although people rarely mention them unless they have something to complain about . Their work should be honored as well, by making sure it isn't thrown away callously in the service of bad gameplay, and doesn't leave the game in the blink of an eye, without most players getting a chance to enjoy it.

[Raiju]

For reference there are groups that offer moose for free on US, and trying to bring it over to EU.

[emilylorange]

Gold rains from the sky and I haven't seen anyone riding the alliance chopper in months. And that thing is only 100k.

[TwilightAss]

Choosing to ignore options doesn't mean they aren't there.

And there was option for you to PvP and get gladiator mount, as it was option for PvP players to raid and get plagued protodrake. So what? For mounts to be rare, there are only two options: small droprate or massive skill investment. For mounts to stay rare there are also two options: temporal availability, or combination of small droprate and massive skill investment. And there must be rare mounts, cause people need some incentive to play and become better; time showed, that mounts are the best choise for such incentive.

[Raiju]

And there was option for you to PvP and get gladiator mount, as it was option for PvP players to raid and get plagued protodrake. So what? For mounts to be rare, there are only two options: small droprate or massive skill investment. For mounts to stay rare there are also two options: temporal availability, or combination of small droprate and massive skill investment. And there must be rare mounts, cause people need some incentive to play and become better; time showed, that mounts are the best choise for such incentive.

There ARE no options. There ARE options for the other options.

Welcome to every patch post 3.0, generally considered fucking terrible and the dark days of wrath.

I lie, technically I can camp the BMAH everyday for plagued/black everyday. I did not have stable internet back then so I was outright impossible to take for a full run for immortal/invincible, you see.

[Mad_Murdock]

The inconsistency is that sometimes they listen to complaints and make arbitrary changes, sometimes they bring up excuses. I can give you some examples:

I don't disagree with your stated discrepancies. But what are their choices? Never make a change or change anything as soon as it gets 100 complaints? Each change or non change has to come down to someone making a judgement call based on the information they have. They'll get some right, some wrong. Right now we have at least side two this argument, One side wants items locked away for only the upper % to achieve and the other side wants everything available on day 1 at whatever cost they consider fair.

I support Blizzard listening to the minority feedback of a particular sub group. IE if the overall feedback from PvPers is that they don't want a rainbow pony, but 99% of the player base does. I support making the change based purely on the PvPers feedback, because it's their reward. Same for Mythic raiders and Pet battlers. How much should we listen to the various sub groups is a tough one. Should Blizzard work on giving something purely to the Gold makers? We say no today, but wasn't that the same attitude towards pet battlers? at Fisherman?

[tehdef]

I personally feel like there is a lot of merit to what Ion said when applied appropriately.

Lets use the PvP Infernals as an example.

Personally, as a long time Warcraft fan, I feel like Infernals are CORE to the Legion Fantasy. By giving only 3% of the players access to the Infernal mounts, they really put that fantasy out of reach. I appreciate that PvP'ers need rewards, but it is not necessary for a PvP player to feel invited to the core fantasy of Legion. PvP intrinsically has no interaction with the story, and the setting of their combat and even the expansion as a whole has a minimized impact on them. The spam arenas and battlegrounds that are set all across azeroth, and do not focus their efforts in the current content as much as say a Quester or a Raider does.

This is why I have a fundamental problem with Infernals being offered as a reward for 3% of the PvPers and the model being bound to a play style that doesn't truly interact or have bearing on the expansion, but getscore fantasy pieces of the expansion. They could still feel equally cool and rewarded with a unique mount that doesn't pull from the core of Legion. Fel Touch another creature, but don't use Infernals.

[Coconut]

I don't disagree with your stated discrepancies. But what are their choices? Never make a change or change anything as soon as it gets 100 complaints? Each change or non change has to come down to someone making a judgement call based on the information they have. They'll get some right, some wrong. Right now we have at least side two this argument, One side wants items locked away for only the upper % to achieve and the other side wants everything available on day 1 at whatever cost they consider fair.

I support Blizzard listening to the minority feedback of a particular sub group. IE if the overall feedback from PvPers is that they don't want a rainbow pony, but 99% of the player base does. I support making the change based purely on the PvPers feedback, because it's their reward. Same for Mythic raiders and Pet battlers. How much should we listen to the various sub groups is a tough one. Should Blizzard work on giving something purely to the Gold makers? We say no today, but wasn't that the same attitude towards pet battlers? at Fisherman?

My suggestion is to put the players' experience first. From multiple perspectives.

- You put a reward in the game, it is a given that players will want and try to do what it takes to get the reward. Will they get a good enough experience if they do? If not, rethink the system.

- Consider the urgency of the reward. If players feel they need to "get something while it's hot", they will feel pressured and frustrated about it. Removable rewards cause this. On the other hand, with rewards that are reasonably hard but stay in game, like vicious saddles, people will delay them indefinitely without getting frustrated. They're still there if they decide to get them. Same with mythic mounts. "I'll just farm it in 4 years" is a very healthy attitude for the game, because it subconsciously makes the player see himself playing wow in the distant future. And they stretch out the content on their own.

- Consider the flavor of the reward. Who will want the reward most? What is the reward associated with in game? See WoD store mounts. I don't mind store mounts in general, but if the game makes it seem like the factions I encounter should give those mounts, it bothers me. Infernals, also, are mounts warlocks and demon hunters will want more than others. They fit their class. They fit the expansion. Making them gladiator exclusive is a cruel tease. The spider I can't be 100% sure about, but if I see three dozen NPCs rife around on spiders in Suramar, or if I have to kill them in 3 zones for quests, it will feel weird to pay 2 million gold for one from a random vendor.

To Watcher's comment, especially: "if an awesome mount comes exclusively from PvP, the majority of players who don't participate in PvP yet desire the mount would prefer that it were otherwise. If our goal were to please a majority, we would likely have to make a version of that mount also available through raiding, and one also available through outdoor questing and reputation, at the very least. But doing that would dilute the reward itself.", I have to say this:

- Consider the quality of the mount. Some mounts, which I like to call "flagship" mounts, are particularly cool and they stand to be used as rewards for multiple kinds of gameplay. Cloud serpents are a good example; they come from a lot of sources, but you're generally not disappointed when you get one, it feels good. That other color/effect feels worth it. More generic mounts, like boars and wolves, don't really work well for it, and that's a big part of why WoD content sucked: 12 ways to get a boar, 8 ways to get a wolf, half a dozen for every other common mount... and 1 way to get a dread raven, 1 way to get a rylak in game (both of them in the last patch and not really unique or rewarding). Use your assets wisely; if a model is really cool, give it more recolors and spread it around, most people will be happy to chase them all. If they are generic, like goats, or boars, put them all under the same rep as a way to give players options (or a small number boost) when they reach exalted.

If you give every extreme playstyle something unique, you end up not pleasing anyone.

- Player groups don't all have the same tastes. Just because you assigned them one unique model, it doesn't mean they'll like it. PvP-ers on twitter didn't like the infernals, they wanted armored storm drakes. What if some gold makers are arachnophobes?
- Collectors are being asked to spread too much if playstyles catered to are too extreme, or if rewards are temporary (not sure if prestige mounts are limited as well).
- The average players caught in between will be left with crappy leavings (by comparison).

P.S. I'm not sure if any segment of the population, PvP-ers, PvE-ers, Casuals, pet battlers, being asked to make a choice between unicorns and infernals, would actually choose unicorns. And no, I don't think they look bad, infernals are just cooler and more thematically fitting for this expansion.

P.P.S. Where's the unique reward for mount collecting? Time after time, we had to be ok with old unused recolors, and every time I came here telling people how that's fine, and how it's unfair for other players if we hog yet another model when we already have so many. Yet, I read Watcher's comment again and I can't stop wondering... another example of consistency :P

[ls-]

Put a unique 1000 $ mount in the Blizzard shop. That's what happened here. Some rich guys can afford it. So where is the problem?

I actually think they should do something like this

- - - Updated - - -

- You put a reward in the game, it is a given that players will want and try to do what it takes to get the reward. Will they get a good enough experience if they do? If not, rethink the system.

I think you keep forgetting one thing. People like doing different things, there are people who LOVE flipping AH, making gold and SPENDING gold. So this mount is for this small bunch of people a.k.a. minority, that's the gameplay they like and activity they enjoy doing.

[Coconut]

II think you keep forgeting one thing. People like doing different things, there are people who LOVE flipping AH, making gold and SPENDING gold. So this mount is for this small bunch of people a.k.a. minority, that's the gameplay they like and activity they enjoy doing.

Honestly? Gold flippers have the BMAH all to themselves, with a bunch of exclusive mounts, as well as a quick way to get many of the mounts we spend time farming. They also have the option to buy boosts for any type of content where boosting is possible, so they can often be the first to sport any mythic mount.

I don't think they were really lacking something just for them. And this spider doesn't even say "i'm rich" on its own the same way the yak or jeweled panthers said it.

[ls-]

Honestly? Gold flippers have the BMAH all to themselves, with a bunch of exclusive mounts, as well as a quick way to get many of the mounts we spend time farming. They also have the option to buy boosts for any type of content where boosting is possible, so they can often be the first to sport any mythic mount.

I don't think they were really lacking something just for them. And this spider doesn't even say "i'm rich" on its own the same way the yak or jeweled panthers said it.

Oh, it will say. Average players will be saying that those dudes are fucking nolifers, ebayers, etc. And AH flippers will be like "oh yeah, peasants, call me names moar *fap fap fap*"

[Coconut]

Oh, it will say. Average players will be saying that those dudes are fucking nolifers, ebayers, etc. And AH flippers will be like "oh yeah, peasants, call me names moar *fap fap fap*"

A very... vivid description of Dalaran life