[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Wyattbw09]

Jon Snow kills a child, fans cheer. Do you think the showmakers intended that scene to be some sort of morally grey moment for Jon who just had returned from the darkness of death, or did they just want to give some candy for Jon fans?

Olly is not a child. He is a sworn man of the Night's Watch. Killed Wildlings in the attack on Castle Black, and murdered his Lord Commander.

I would have preferred Jon spare Olly. I think it was designed to make people wounder if Jon is the Jon of five seasons past or if this is a new darker Jon.

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I think historically dual wielding was done with one large sword and a second smaller sword. Two long swords is actually not all that practical. I'm sure the show had Arthur Dayne use two larger swords for dramatic effect.

Arthur Dayne is a second to none, once in a lifetime fighter. He is doing what nobody else can do and it makes him a legendary figure because of it. If they had tons of people fighting like Dayne did, one could complain a bit. However, this ability is what makes him the greatest fighter to perhaps ever live.

[Darth Belichick]

Olly was supposed to be that "I saved you, and you betrayed me" kind of person. Thorne had his beliefs. I actually gained some respect for Thorne when he spoke about why he did it with the noose hanging around his neck. While I didn't agree with him, I can see his point of view.

[Deleted]

I have no idea what this remark refers to, but I'll choose to ignore it.



Yep. Unfortunately it backfired because it looked positively ridiculous ^^

Not to every one. None of my friends that watch GOT or even read the books found it ridiculous.
As someone pointed out, I think some people are nit picking too much to be satisfied.

[Deleted]

you didn't ignore it, technically.

I ignored your jab, by not reacting quid pro quo.

You harbor disdain for resurrection because of a "lack of consequences", yet there are consequences. Hate to assume, but it appears to be anti-magic bias, something that has been cropping up over the last year.

Oh, I do?

Where did you read that? :/

Not to every one. None of my friends that watch GOT or even read the books found it ridiculous.
As someone pointed out, I think some people are nit picking too much to be satisfied.

Obviously. Some people thought Transformers the movie was a masterpiece. I shouldn't need to write "imo" after everything I write. Especially when it's obvious were sharing opinions.

[Wewlad]

"Much more interesting to me than Jon being shrouded in plot armour at every turn and coming back from the dead in a setting that tries to pride itself on 'consequences' and not having a happy fate for every character."

You imply that there are no consequences for Jon when he is resurrected.

It's just a hunch of mine that people can't handle magic and tend to complain about it for little reason, and often out-of-context. Not you in particular, but it's been a trend of sorts.

[Orange Joe]

She has flaws and watching her evolve from someone naive into someone stronger has been rather interesting. Much more interesting to me than Jon being shrouded in plot armour at every turn and coming back from the dead in a setting that tries to pride itself on 'consequences' and not having a happy fate for every character.

How does Jon have plot armor, but Sansa doesn't?

Do people think about what they say or do they like just spouting buzzwords to make themselves feel cool?

[Graeham]

"Much more interesting to me than Jon being shrouded in plot armour at every turn and coming back from the dead in a setting that tries to pride itself on 'consequences' and not having a happy fate for every character."

You imply that there are no consequences for Jon when he is resurrected.

It's just a hunch of mine that people can't handle magic and tend to complain about it for little reason, and often out-of-context. Not you in particular, but it's been a trend of sorts.

I can handle magic just fine, actually. My favourite genre is fantasy after all. In this setting, though, it feels very poorly integrated - but then Jon's story hasn't translated very well into the show compared to how it played out in the books. It's the same with Tyrion for similar reasons. Both are made out to be 'heroes' and both end up getting many more free passes than other characters do.

Shae was made to pull a knife on Tyrion instead of being strangled purely out of vengeance by Tyrion like in the books. Olly's reasoning for going after Jon was understandable - he lost his parents to the Wildlings and had his entire life shattered right before his eyes. He's also a kid - but many people ended up cheering because they couldn't relate to him.

[Gallahadd]

I actually gained some respect for Thorne when he spoke about why he did it with the noose hanging around his neck.

Same. I've never liked Thorne, because you're not meant to... He's been a dick since day one and I'm glad he's dead.

But when push comes to shove, you HAVE to respect him for sticking to his morals. He's a man of the Night's Watch to his core.

[Zelk]

Who was it that decided a printed black t shirt and bootcut jeans are the uniform for people that make videos of themselves swinging swords?

[Frontenac]

Olly was supposed to be that "I saved you, and you betrayed me" kind of person. Thorne had his beliefs. I actually gained some respect for Thorne when he spoke about why he did it with the noose hanging around his neck. While I didn't agree with him, I can see his point of view.

I agree. That scene and that whole situation were handled very well. Each of them had pretty good reasons to hate Jon Snow. And Jon Snow had pretty good reasons to help the Wildlings. I already respected Thorne since the Battle of Castle Black (even though I did not like him). Despite his dickish behaviour with Snow, he was an honorable man who took his oath seriously. It's hard, when you are in a millenary organisation, to admit that change his necessary. Also, he saw several of his brothers killed by the Wildlings. Thorne's death is a loss for the Night Watch who needs leaders of his caliber.

As for Olly, he was also perfectly justified to feel betrayed by Jon, who not only let Wildlings south of the Wall, but also gave them the Gift, the very land where he was living with his parents before they were brutally murdered by the Wildlings. That's why I never embarked on the Hate Olly Train.

After the execution, I felt no satisfaction like I did when Jon cut Janos Slynt's head. It was just, but sad and tragic.

[Wewlad]

I can handle magic just fine, actually. My favourite genre is fantasy after all. In this setting, though, it feels very poorly integrated - but then Jon's story hasn't translated very well into the show compared to how it played out in the books. It's the same with Tyrion for similar reasons. Both are made out to be 'heroes' and both end up getting many more free passes than other characters do.

Shae was made to pull a knife on Tyrion instead of being strangled purely out of vengeance by Tyrion like in the books. Olly's reasoning for going after Jon was understandable - he lost his parents to the Wildlings and had his entire life shattered right before his eyes. He's also a kid - but many people ended up cheering because they couldn't relate to him.

I think they did a good job of turning Olly around. Even if it was through his execution. The camera lingering on him after the hanging, it is rather sobering.

I disagreed with the hate mongering of Olly. He literally was told that his parents would be eaten, and everything for him fell apart.

People were fine with Hardhome, at least, and that was the "test" to decide how audiences would react to the heightened fantasy elements.

Jon's resurrection was obvious, but it has already changed him, and that's the point of resurrection in ASOIAF. Those brought back lose pieces of themselves.

They also did a job job of playing around with Jon after he comes back. It brings doubt as to who he really is right now.

[Wewlad]

I don't see how Jon is any different now. He executed Slynt on the spot for refusing an order, it's not like executing the people who murdered him is somehow a big change in his character now.

It's the manner. He personally chopped off Slynt's head, but hanged the four. Also, it's more due to subtle hints. He's still Jon, but colder. And pissed off enough to break from the Watch.

[Damajin]

It's the manner. He personally chopped off Slynt's head, but hanged the four. Also, it's more due to subtle hints. He's still Jon, but colder. And pissed off enough to break from the Watch.

When you look at the life he's lived, bastard son of Winterfell dealing with Catelyn Stark's aloofness and bitterness and then the humiliation of being appointed to the Stewards instead of the Rangers, putting up with all the shit from Thorne and then somehow becoming Lord Commander, putting his neck out there for Sam, all the risks he took with Mance Rayder and the Wildlings and then to have his sworn brothers betray him and murder him and he sees nothing after, sure he's going to be colder and fundamentally different especially if the thoughts concerning his parentage turn out to be true and he's got more inside of him than he ever thought possible.

[Dasffion]

It's the manner. He personally chopped off Slynt's head, but hanged the four. Also, it's more due to subtle hints. He's still Jon, but colder. And pissed off enough to break from the Watch.

He still cut the rope that hanged them.

[Darth Belichick]

Yeah. Why cut 4 heads off individually when you can hang 4 at once. You still make your point, and it's not a gory scene just to be extra gory. The hanging worked just fine, and as mentioned he still cut the rope himself as last act as Lord Commander.

[Wewlad]

Yeah, but I think it's a bridging point of Jon becoming a bit more distant, slowly. And, I'm not clamoring for gory scenes for their own sake. It's just how Ned did things, and Jon aspired to make him proud. Ned would have chopped all of their heads off personally.

Still, I think the changes are too subtle for some to catch. I'm looking forward to a slow transition rather than instantaneous personality switch which would be ridiculous. Of course, many things fly over the heads of general audiences.

[Deleted]

"Much more interesting to me than Jon being shrouded in plot armour at every turn and coming back from the dead in a setting that tries to pride itself on 'consequences' and not having a happy fate for every character."

I never said this. That's why you should use quotes...

Yeah, but I think it's a bridging point of Jon becoming a bit more distant, slowly. And, I'm not clamoring for gory scenes for their own sake. It's just how Ned did things, and Jon aspired to make him proud. Ned would have chopped all of their heads off personally.

Still, I think the changes are too subtle for some to catch. I'm looking forward to a slow transition rather than instantaneous personality switch which would be ridiculous. Of course, many things fly over the heads of general audiences.

I doubt that.

As for Jon, he had already decided to break his oaths before he died, so leaving the Night's Watch has nothing to do with his death or with him becoming "colder".

[Airlick]

Olly is not a child. He is a sworn man of the Night's Watch. Killed Wildlings in the attack on Castle Black, and murdered his Lord Commander.

I would have preferred Jon spare Olly. I think it was designed to make people wounder if Jon is the Jon of five seasons past or if this is a new darker Jon.

Arthur Dayne is a second to none, once in a lifetime fighter. He is doing what nobody else can do and it makes him a legendary figure because of it. If they had tons of people fighting like Dayne did, one could complain a bit. However, this ability is what makes him the greatest fighter to perhaps ever live.

It would have made zero sense for Jon to pardon Olly and not the others. I was thinking Jon would pardon them all, he'd do that if he was Jesus. But just Olly? No sense at all, the other guys sacrificed their whole lives for the Night's Watch, seeing it ruined and going against its whole purpose (at least from their perspective) was enough to turn on Jon for what they believed to be the greater good. They sticked to their principles and they lost. Olly, on the other hand, just joined, seemed to have no connection with NW as a whole, but just to Jon. Then he also felt betrayed, understandably, but he owed so much to Jon that he should at least try to understand. It's not like Jon has been hiding why he let the wildlings through, and it's not like he was the only one who saw the Others marching on the Wall.

As someone else said, NW didn't actually murder Jon because he let the wildlings through, they may not have liked it, but they, to a degree, understood that they need any help they can get against the White Walkers. Strictly speaking, letting the wildlings through wasn't breaking the oath, it was just perceived as such because people misinterpreted it - which was obviously due to the fact that they spent their lives fighting the wildlings, who were really the only threat to the realms of men.

But there is no way to explain not only leaving the post, but trying to use the NW to fight in a civil war, even if it was a just war. He was going to break the oath, and that's what the NW couldn't forgive.

So yeah, yet another example of the show getting watered down to a point it looks like another cliche fantasy work. Too bad we're not going back to the times of the first few seasons, when the writers could have 40 out of 50 minutes of an episode filled with talking heads - but nobody cared because it served as character development tool, and by characters I mean all of them, not just Tyrion and Varys. The last episode's conversation of Tyrion, Grey Worm and Missandei seemed like the writers acknowledged how shallow and meaningless the conversations of the last 2 seasons were, even if they were funny.

[Wewlad]

I never said this. That's why you should use quotes...



I doubt that.

As for Jon, he had already decided to break his oaths before he died, so leaving the Night's Watch has nothing to do with his death or with him becoming "colder".

Hah. I've been terrible with directing my posts at the wrong people. Apologies on that.

As for Jon's change, it's rather easy to pick up just by Kit's acting. Jon isn't quite all there, as they lampshaded with him and Edd.

[Wilian]

I only meant Olly shouldn't have been in the TV show to begin with. He's a useless character that was added for mysterious reasons (other than schocking the audience).

He had purpose. He was there for the audience to see the horrors of what some wildlings can unleash upon a plain civilian population and then later was the one whom brought the Night's Watch the news of just how close they were in situation where a lot of people still doubted Jon's words.

Sure he was just a minor scrape of a side-character but he had his purpose.