Possibility of the removal of Tank role in future

[Toppy]

Hell no, gotta keep tanks, its a core part of WoW. They have to find a happy middle ground for tanks. Not where their survivability is so high that healers barely touch them but not where they are totally dependant on them too. That being said they do still need healers and should need them. Their role is and always should be to "grab" the enemies attention, have the health pool to survive longer than others and absorb a fair amount of damage. What are tankers complaining about in Legion alpha, that they don't do high dps and just absorb damage and require heals... guess what, that's what tanks were for the longest time. You're a meatshield, you go in and get the boss and hold them on to you, take a done of damage but have the armor and HP to survive longer than the dps classes. Somewhere along the line people were complaining about that and wanting to do more and more dps. Blizzard did it and then it made healers not needed as much for skilled tankers, so then they started complaining and it goes back and forth. Here's the thing, if you chose tank as your spec and role, then that's what you are/were... not a dps with armor, but a meatshield. So all that being said, no they shouldn't remove it but they do got a bring back a little of what they've had the last few expansions I guess to keep the people that love to tank but find it boring on alpha to have a little bit excitement.

A lot of the complaints about tanks in the alpha arent about damage.

Its about how they're so poor at the tanking part of their job that they come off as redundant in many cases. Outside of their long CD abilities they're just crappy DPS.

That and their rotations for most tanks are boring as hell. Paladin is especially bad in this case. DH too. The rage gen on warrior is god awful too making it boring and the actual tanking part of tanking difficult to impossible during the times when its most needed.

tl;dr: tanks are complaining that they cant tank

[Jibjub]

But GW2 PvE is bad! But this isnt related at all to lack of tanking. Nope.

Agreed!

The trinity works for MMOs (specifically PvE). Why not look for innovations elsewhere (more dynamic world content, smarter AI, etc)?

[Herogamer555]

Fuck off. Tanking is a fun and engaging role. If it goes, then I go.

[Zantos]

Anyone who says tanks are more than DPS who occasionally taunts and positions the boss is basically overrating their performence, seeing themselves in the giant's mirror.

If Blizz says "a good tank will be doing significantly higher DPS than an OK tank" for Legion, that says alot about current tank identity in WoW.

Not going to lie, Blizz has seriously ruined tanks in Legion.

On to the other part. You're right, tanks do mostly do that, but it gives Depth to the fight. If you don't have tanks, there is no target swap or position check. There is no more positional requirement dps abilities. There is no watching out for where the boss is facing. There is no more bosses where if someone isn't within melee range, they decide to nuke the raid.

There is nothing a dps could do to substitute the tanking role well enough to allow mechanics like what I mentioned to stay in. All that does is leave a bare bone boss with Minimum mechanics and strategy involved.

[Tharkkun]

Played games without tanks they tend to be extremely shallow...

People just have to get over that a tanks job is to make his health bar go lower as slowly as possible.

Not be some fucked up super dps by abusing mechanics like in MoP or a self healing god like WoD

I agree. There's a reason the holy trinity has worked for so long. Games try to reinvent this concept and end up confusing people just so they can be different. Tanks don't necessarily have to be sword/board or some stout beast but they need to be defined.

Adding a range tank would be a neat concept though which I'm surprised WoW hasn't tried yet.

[nathrizarri]

Not going to lie, Blizz has seriously ruined tanks in Legion.

On to the other part. You're right, tanks do mostly do that, but it gives Depth to the fight. If you don't have tanks, there is no target swap or position check. There is no more positional requirement dps abilities. There is no watching out for where the boss is facing. There is no more bosses where if someone isn't within melee range, they decide to nuke the raid.

There is nothing a dps could do to substitute the tanking role well enough to allow mechanics like what I mentioned to stay in. All that does is leave a bare bone boss with Minimum mechanics and strategy involved.

You are right when we think with todays meta in terms of perspective. But without a tank, the downsides can breed new possibilities to create new and unique mechanics. When boss positioning is out of player control, it can become a new mechanic to deal with since players will always have to follow bosses positioning. Even with minimum mechanics it will create more moments for a player more than a DPS check. That is what coming to my mind with 5 min thinking. Imagine what could developers use with that system..

[Chasavaqe]

I would quit WoW if they removed healing. I like it 100x more than tanking and 200x more than DPS.

[Pandragon]

no, aggro should be removed. Like..i think guild wars has(never played)...where everyone can potentially be tanking the boss. Where you have to dodge attacks like we have been since timeless isle. But the tanks job then becomes using his high defense to absorb large attacks that would kill other classes. I've always hated the concept of a boss going "im gonna ignore this guy with the bow, whose actually hurting me cause you have a shield."

[Deleted]

I agree. There's a reason the holy trinity has worked for so long. Games try to reinvent this concept and end up confusing people just so they can be different. Tanks don't necessarily have to be sword/board or some stout beast but they need to be defined.

Adding a range tank would be a neat concept though which I'm surprised WoW hasn't tried yet.

Doesn't really have a point... If its range it would have to kite that screws with melee. If it didn't have to kite there would be no point to its range.

- - - Updated - - -

I agree. There's a reason the holy trinity has worked for so long. Games try to reinvent this concept and end up confusing people just so they can be different. Tanks don't necessarily have to be sword/board or some stout beast but they need to be defined.

Adding a range tank would be a neat concept though which I'm surprised WoW hasn't tried yet.

Doesn't really have a point... If its range it would have to kite that screws with melee. If it didn't have to kite there would be no point to its range.

[Flurryfang]

One of the things that Wow seriously doesn't need is REMOVING stuff

This has nothing to do with removing stuff. Just reworking systems. You are not gonna have less if they removed the tank class, since you would just end up with more healers and dps.

After having played tank for 7 years, i would not really mind the removal of tanks in WoW. Ofcourse, the game would have to change A LOT! since the game works around tank,dps and healer comboes, and just having dps switch tank, is really not a good idea. Having a game, where everybody was either dealing dmg or healing would not be too bad..... I just can't see a working-system in WoW, in which tanks are gone

[StraTosSpeAr]

You just arbitrarily say that the idea of a tank is "outdated".

You're going to have to back that up before you can justify removing them.

[Maelmorda]

Lets just take a moment to thank god, that OP isn't a developer for an mmo, sounds terrible. Every game i've played that tried to "mix it up" has had a piss poor dungeon experience. When it comes tot he trinity.. if it ain't broke, why fix it? If you don't like queue times, form a party, like we did in the times of old (vanilla/TBC). I know OP wants to believe this would somehow revolutionize the game, but, all of wow is designed around the trinity, I think its the one thing that blizzard wont fiddle with, its sacred.

[Extremities]

Fuck that. Tanks are the backbone of group/raid content. You dont have a tank, you have a fuckin mess on your hands of mobs being everywhere. Great example - Guild wars 2 dungeons.... Mobs everywhere, aggro on everyone, die 109823098 times, fuck that noise. We need more tanks. Tanks are one of the more enjoyable characters in most mmo's that I play and can honestly say I succeed at(Not that it matters but I love tanking and get into the classes and their mechanics)

[DarthMonk79]

A lot of the complaints about tanks in the alpha arent about damage.

Its about how they're so poor at the tanking part of their job that they come off as redundant in many cases. Outside of their long CD abilities they're just crappy DPS.

That and their rotations for most tanks are boring as hell. Paladin is especially bad in this case. DH too. The rage gen on warrior is god awful too making it boring and the actual tanking part of tanking difficult to impossible during the times when its most needed.

tl;dr: tanks are complaining that they cant tank

That's why I'm saying they have to find a middle ground. Tanks don't need to be doing massive dps, but they do need a rotation with cd's that help. Why not just keep all their cd's but make them less powerful. That way the tanks still have things to do other than getting hit and soak dmg, but also make it so healers are still needed to heal them. Drop the absorb/block/dodge percentage of cd's so that they still are better than having none at all but aren't so OP that they negate the need for healers. Or bring back stuff like Sunder... it gives the tanks something to add to their rotation and debuffs the target to drop its armor and lower the dmg it puts out.

[Gilgameshh]

To echo what others have said: I get the point of the post, but removing core parts of traditional WoW is the complete opposite of what will help this game. Maybe an idea like this could be used for another game, but not for WoW.

Tanking gives a raid, dungeon, whatever, the ability to have designated people who chose to play a certain way. Those people don't necessarily do a lot of DPS, they don't have the DPS style of fun; they just soak damage and move mobs (while contributing to DPS/their survival as much as possible). Those people spec into tank because they like that style of play and/or are willing to do it. Making the DPS take turns tanking would be a disastrous design change since most people play DPS for its own playstyle, not because they like to tank.

[Zantos]

You are right when we think with todays meta in terms of perspective. But without a tank, the downsides can breed new possibilities to create new and unique mechanics. When boss positioning is out of player control, it can become a new mechanic to deal with since players will always have to follow bosses positioning. Even with minimum mechanics it will create more moments for a player more than a DPS check. That is what coming to my mind with 5 min thinking. Imagine what could developers use with that system..

That isn't viable. Like I said, at that point it becomes more difficult for healers to know Who to heal and when. Therefore, none of the bosses could really be lethal in terms of melee damage they do since a huge random spike on someone could be bad. Healers would have more difficulty planning out and using their "Oh crap" buttons that target a specific player since if they use it on player A and the boss immediately goes to player B, then their cd is wasted. Core abilities of some like a holy paladins Beacon would be vastly more difficult to use. Dps would have to all be brought to a similar level of surviveability in order to account for the fact that any one of them could be hit at any time.

Then you take into account that melee dps Will get shafted if they have to run a lot to chase a boss that is ever changing in where it is at. Every class would then need some form of mitigation cd's given to them because, again, Any one of them could be a tank at any given time. Then you have to rework how push backs work for casting players because their dps would suffer heavily if they are the current target of the boss. Then you have to take into account that All directional requirements on Any dps move is now gone, IE backstab for a rogue.

Then you have the removal of any fights where the bosses need to have their positioning controlled. The first boss with the dogs in mogushan vaults were you need to keep them apart to control their energy growth to control what damage explosion happens and when. The Fourth boss in Mogushan vaults were you need to Move the boss out of the way of a line of adds so you, and the dps, can continue to attack the boss. The last boss of mogushan vaults where you need to keep the bosses separated, or end up buffing them or insta killing the raid thanks to their cleve abilities. XT in ulduar where you need to keep an add away from him to heal.

Add to that that any add fight is now impossible since you cannot control where and who they attack. So if you need to burn them down, that requires ranged to stop dpsing and group up. Melee to possibly have to chase adds. Or fights where the adds actually can heal the boss would be done since it would require Someone to know how to control the add. Or a boss like cho gall where the add drops a debuff puddle that you need to control.

Now we get to cleave mechanics. Without being able to control what direction, or even where he is, say bye bye to cleave mechanics. An in opertune cleave could one shot the raid, especially if heavy aoe damage is going out. Like sindragosa's breath being able to inflect a lot of damage to anyone in front of her.

That is just what I can think of off the top of my head with how a unpredictable aggro table and no positioning capabilities play out. The list could go on more with how being unable to control the boss would remove abilities and add more to dps in terms of responsibility. I get that you want the mold to be broken, but honestly, removing tanks isn't the answer. They should add another role before removing one.

[FuxieDK]

Adding a range tank would be a neat concept though which I'm surprised WoW hasn't tried yet.

Moonkins in TBC was exactly that..

They had high threat spells and same huge armor bonus as bears.. The only thing they lacked, was a true taunt..

[Manabomb]

Here I am thinking the opposite: tanking makes no sense to me and healing makes perfect sense. Are we to believe a tank can hold up his shield and "block" a swing from a dragon like Onyxia? Or from Mythic Garrosh? or Archimonde? Avoiding, sure that makes sense. But parrying? Blocking? Nonsense IMO.

In a world with magic, healing makes sense. You get hit and you can be mended with magical whatever. Bandages make no sense, but potions do. Your idea of what healers are is pretty narrow, you have to admit.

IMO, games like GW2 have it closer to reality where there are defensive players and small heals, but basically everyone is a DPS.

Dude. In a world with magic, being able to block Onyxia with a shield is perfectly rational. You can't just say "blocking an attack that seems unavoidable is nonsense" then go right around in the literal next sentence with the words "in a world with magic."

In a world with magic I'm a 18 foot tall anthropomorphic wolf with white fur, horns growing out the back of my head, feathered wings sprouting from my back and plates running across my chest. Magic is limitless and isn't bound to the realm of reality. Bitching about something making sense in a world of magic is a pointless redundancy.

[nathrizarri]

That isn't viable. Like I said, at that point it becomes more difficult for healers to know Who to heal and when. Therefore, none of the bosses could really be lethal in terms of melee damage they do since a huge random spike on someone could be bad. Healers would have more difficulty planning out and using their "Oh crap" buttons that target a specific player since if they use it on player A and the boss immediately goes to player B, then their cd is wasted. Core abilities of some like a holy paladins Beacon would be vastly more difficult to use. Dps would have to all be brought to a similar level of surviveability in order to account for the fact that any one of them could be hit at any time.

Then you take into account that melee dps Will get shafted if they have to run a lot to chase a boss that is ever changing in where it is at. Every class would then need some form of mitigation cd's given to them because, again, Any one of them could be a tank at any given time. Then you have to rework how push backs work for casting players because their dps would suffer heavily if they are the current target of the boss. Then you have to take into account that All directional requirements on Any dps move is now gone, IE backstab for a rogue.

Then you have the removal of any fights where the bosses need to have their positioning controlled. The first boss with the dogs in mogushan vaults were you need to keep them apart to control their energy growth to control what damage explosion happens and when. The Fourth boss in Mogushan vaults were you need to Move the boss out of the way of a line of adds so you, and the dps, can continue to attack the boss. The last boss of mogushan vaults where you need to keep the bosses separated, or end up buffing them or insta killing the raid thanks to their cleve abilities. XT in ulduar where you need to keep an add away from him to heal.

Add to that that any add fight is now impossible since you cannot control where and who they attack. So if you need to burn them down, that requires ranged to stop dpsing and group up. Melee to possibly have to chase adds. Or fights where the adds actually can heal the boss would be done since it would require Someone to know how to control the add. Or a boss like cho gall where the add drops a debuff puddle that you need to control.

Now we get to cleave mechanics. Without being able to control what direction, or even where he is, say bye bye to cleave mechanics. An in opertune cleave could one shot the raid, especially if heavy aoe damage is going out. Like sindragosa's breath being able to inflect a lot of damage to anyone in front of her.

That is just what I can think of off the top of my head with how a unpredictable aggro table and no positioning capabilities play out. The list could go on more with how being unable to control the boss would remove abilities and add more to dps in terms of responsibility. I get that you want the mold to be broken, but honestly, removing tanks isn't the answer. They should add another role before removing one.

I do get what you saying but those are all previous content. Those encounters will be soloable in Legion and even now I solo them in HC. And yes I know I am an extremely overgeared Blood, but still this shows how relevant those encounters are.

You seem to be a reasonable guy, help me out, what can be done to adress this tanking issue.

Role is very binary either you succeed and any extra is not that relevant or you fail horrendeously and be bashed. Having a really strong damage tank vs weak results on huge aggro issues which I happen to face alot. You want to be a good one but literally you are as strong as your partner. Role has almost no sense of accomplishment, even with WoD healers are taking care of everything, tank just manages their strong active mitigation.

Legion promises low amount of absorbs and less burst damage from bosses, now that can work only if tanks can dive into their minigame and be occupied with that, which is only satisfaction a player can get from their character. I am not a complexity fanboy, having a very simple but meaningful rotation that works as intended is above everything else to me. But I fear I will end up with asking healers to cut the healing a bit on me so I can stop overhealing with my Death Strike despite my despereate try to get a good one with all the delay etc I can without throwing away resources.

[XangXu]

Tanking is in the game as a work around GOOD AI.

In games like Tabletop D&D, the concept of "Aggro" or "Tanks" don't exist. If the mage is almost dead and is bleeding, the enemy will attack the mage.