Arcane vs Fel Magic?

[Mace]

and yet mages become warlocks for more power

it's the nature of fel, it feels more powerful in the same bomb is more powerful than a pen, but which do you think does more?

[Deleted]

it's the nature of fel, it feels more powerful in the same bomb is more powerful than a pen, but which do you think does more?

I don't think your analogy makes much sense to be honest.

Fel can be used to create things.

Fel portals, constructs, demons, soul amalgamations etc.

[Combatbutler]

I don't think your analogy makes much sense to be honest.

Fel can be used to create things.

Fel portals, constructs, demons, soul amalgamations etc.

Indeed fel is very versatile, very much so like the arcane and more powerful to boot, but it is incredible addicting and corrupting radiating entire areas in which it is used.

[FelPlague]

because titans are beings of order and light, so Fel was storng against them. Also titans hadn't experienced fel, unlike sargeras, so there arcane knowledge didnt' have time to respond.

Don't forget Sargeras awas first an arcane master, so he'd know exactly how to use fel against arcane users, read what i wrote earlier to others, about Fel being more destructive in nature, but taht doens't necesasrily mean more powerful at all.

Order will find it hard to work against destruction when you shape destruction specifically to target order, it's nature makes it easier without counter knowledge or time. Order is precise, calculating, requiring great thought, intellect and precision, ofc it can counter Fel, fel being erratic and largely uncontrollable by nature which is why demons use it so but are easily mastered by an ordered (arcane mind) that can control himself enough to manage fel.

We see mages in warcraft often more experienced and able to master their unlearned warlock counterparts. The harder battles come against the arcane masters who turned to fel, warlocks who were once mages, or who those who master the darker arts, yet even as they do, there is a weakness to it, it is moreexhilrating, it seems in itially stronger, but is it when it leave you weaker? when it imbalances you leaving you vulnerable in ohter ways, say it tugs at your mind, makes your mind more chaotic, you're not structured for that

uhhhhhhhh no no no and no....

they were not being of order and light, as each has their own origins and powers... order in most, light in most, but not all of them were "order and light" sargeras was order and might, aggramar might and earth, freya order and life, etc

yes they HAD experienced fel, and had been for a long long time well fighting the demons

again no, he dident use fel magic... what weakened the titans was just his radiating fel magic... if you actualtly ready the chronicals no where does it say "he shot a fel bolt at X" him just being infused with it, was enough to weaken them... he fought in a sword battle... but his aura of fel weakened them enough to kill them...

uh yes it does make it much more powerful, as it is 100% built to be destructive, meaning a fully powered fel bolt, and arcane bolt ,a fel bolt will allways be stronger
get a mage, shoot arcane ,then make him shoot fel, the fel will be much much more powerful

why do you think mages convert into warlocks all the time for even more limitless power?

your also talking about trained mages fighting untrained warlocks... a equally trained warlock would allways beat the mage...

as you keep saying "fel makes you weaker and more vulnerable, more chaotic" yes it does... but were talking about what is more powerful... it makes you weaker, but a fel bolt and a arcane bolt, both coming from the same mage, the arcane wont effect the owner, where the fel will, but the fell will be stronger...

[Lastlivingsoul]

That might have nothing to do with Arcane vs Fel. It just might be because of how powerful the Titans are. When Sargeras became all Fel infused he made short work of the other Titans.

The Titans are Arcane oriented, not necromantic, not light, not Shadow, not Nature ... Arcane. Aman'thul controls time. Their power comes from the Arcane. There is no "might have" about it.

The concentration of Fel caused by Mardum is the only reason the Titans fell.

[Cheapnecrolyte]

Fel was created in the Nether when Light and Void merged in a corrupt way.

Umm, no. As the Ocean of Order expanded, some of its energies faded and dimmed, leaving behind a lack of Order. From the absence of Order in these spaces, a new power coalesced and came to be. A brutal and extremely addictive energy fueled by drawing life from living beings, this power was Disorder, which is manifested as highly destructive fel magic.

Because Order is most commonly perceived as arcane magic in reality and Disorder (the absence of Order) is manifested as highly destructive fel magic, highly destructive fel magic (Disorder) would be "created" by "bleeding" arcane magic (Order). You know, like how the Void (the absence of Light) is "created" by "bleeding" the Light?

[Zenny]

The Titans are Arcane oriented, not necromantic, not light, not Shadow, not Nature ... Arcane. Aman'thul controls time. Their power comes from the Arcane. There is no "might have" about it.

The concentration of Fel caused by Mardum is the only reason the Titans fell.

I never said the Titans were not powered by Arcane magic, I said I believe Sargeras was able to defeat all the demons not due to him using Arcane magic but mainly due to the staggering difference in power between him and his foes.

As for Mardum, Sargeras tore it apart, freeing all the demons and allowing him to absorb the massive amounts of Fel magic released, transforming him into a raging inferno of Fel energy. The Titans were weak to Fel Magic and were decimated by Sargeras.

[Mace]

Umm, no. As the Ocean of Order expanded, some of its energies faded and dimmed, leaving behind a lack of Order. From the absence of Order in these spaces, a new power coalesced and came to be. A brutal and extremely addictive energy fueled by drawing life from living beings, this power was Disorder, which is manifested as highly destructive fel magic.

Because Order is most commonly perceived as arcane magic in reality and Disorder (the absence of Order) is manifested as highly destructive fel magic, highly destructive fel magic (Disorder) would be "created" by "bleeding" arcane magic (Order). You know, like how the Void (the absence of Light) is "created" by "bleeding" the Light?

and this certainly doens't mean darkness is greater than light, in fact it's the other way around, light penetrates darkness, and darkness cannot withstand it.

i think it's just a matter of how. AT the end of the day, if Fel is actually that more powerful, non of us stand a chance. I think it's more like fel on the outset appears to be more powerful, it is certainly more destructive cos that's its nature. But it isn't more powerful overall.

and in response to the others, i do maintain that Fel initially overwhelms the arcane users because it's newer to them and they don't know how to fight it, you did find out that the mages were beating warlocks in the wars. And yes mages were attracted to the fel because it felt more powerful. I don't think it actually is, being newer, giving you a bigger rush and being better at destroying, a certain mindset or person, the type that wants to beat their opponents or control them would feel this was more powerful because it has that bigger destructive edge, but overall it isn't.

I wonder if a fel based people started learning arcane how would they feel? Would they feel the same as their counterparts becasue this was new to them? I think if they were the sort that cared only about feeling powerful and destroying things they would feel uncomfrotable and unsatisfied with the arcane. If they had nobler gains were not destruction minded, aimed to look for better solutions, they'd love the arcane.

It's also a personality thing. Illidan and his demon hunters feel they need to master the demons power to overcome them. That's one approach of doing so. In the arcane mastery of the Elves, dealing wi

[Lastlivingsoul]

I never said the Titans were not powered by Arcane magic, I said I believe Sargeras was able to defeat all the demons not due to him using Arcane magic but mainly due to the staggering difference in power between him and his foes.

As for Mardum, Sargeras tore it apart, freeing all the demons and allowing him to absorb the massive amounts of Fel magic released, transforming him into a raging inferno of Fel energy. The Titans were weak to Fel Magic and were decimated by Sargeras.

1. Belief should never be stated as fact in an argument.

2. Half Demon/Half Titan is the unbalance I'm talking about.* A Hybrid killed the Titans not a "pureblooded" from the Burning Legion.

3. 2. As for the actual battle between the Titans Aggramar crossed swords with Fel-fueled Sargeras alone and shattered both of their blades clash. "Their two blades met, igniting a furious explosion of Fel and Arcane Power. When the torrent of warring energies finally subsided, Sargeras and Aggramar saw that both of their weapons had been shattered." "Sargeras and the Betrayal". Chronicle Vol.1

"Tis not the size of a young knaves Blade, but by the Lust in his thrust by which Legends are made." ~ Hung

[JTHMRulez1]

Arcane is weak to fel, or the titans are just weak to fel?

[Lastlivingsoul]

Arcane is weak to fel, or the titans are just weak to fel?

Good question.

In Chronicle is specifically says "Aggramar found himself outmatched. Like all Titans he was uniquely susceptible to fel magic...." Its pretty clear that this is a Titan specific flaw. However as stated in my previous post when the Powers of Arcane and Fel were channeled through their inanimate swords in a clash they both shattered. They canceled each other out.

[Wildmoon]

I think it's specifically the titans who are weak to fel not arcane itself. Mages would be at huge disadvantage against warlocks in fight if that's the case. So far, they haven't been shown to be.

[Zulkhan]

I've always thought Fel/arcane as Force in Star Wars. Equal in power, but Fel is easier and quicker.

Fel and Arcane don't really fit the dualism. Void and Light better fits that in the Warcraft universe, as both these magics somewhat influence people's souls and emotions.

[Cheapnecrolyte]

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. Quote time lolololol

"If they are so dangerous, why did the wizards there not deal with them?” Graymane demanded. “Why did they not use their magic to end the threat?”
“Because the orcs possess magic of their own,” Antonidas countered. “Potent magic. Most of their warlocks are weaker than our own wizards, at least from what my fellows reported, yet they have far greater numbers and can work in unison, something my own brethren have never found easy.” Khadgar was sure he heard some bitterness in the old archmage’s voice, and understood it well. If there was one thing every member of the Kirin Tor valued, it was his independence. Getting even two wizards to work together was difficult enough—the thought of managing more than that was almost beyond imagining.
“Our wizards did fight back,” Lothar explained. “They helped turn the tide of several battles. But the archmage is correct. We lacked the numbers to stand against them, magically as well as physically. For every orc spellcaster killed, another rose to take his place, and two more beside him.”

Excerpt From: Rosenberg, Aaron. “World of Warcraft: Tides of Darkness.” Pocket Star Books. iBooks. This material may be protected by copyright.

[Mace]

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. Quote time lolololol

indeed. backs up what i menetioned in the last 2 pages.

Fel is most dangerous when wielded by an arcane ordered and trained mind, there is a more schorlarly understand of fundamentals that yields much stronger results. if kil'jaeden just pumps you with more power, your crudely woven fel ball will blast a whole building down as opposed to just a bottle.

I think blizzard often has to over-empahsise fel so it registers to you as something very dangerous, so you can feel the reaction of the poeple they are trying to describe, but they also make it quite clear on many instance, incl game balance, that in it's nature it is no more powerful. More destructive yes, or more conducive to destruction (better at destroying) but not more powerful.

[Kithelle]

Yeah, but that doesn't work for everybody.

Some people have hard time dealing with their own emotion and acting "disciplined" might be easier for them. On the other hand trying to suppress emotions to achieve discipline might be counterproductive and actually fuel the rage inside the emotional person.

It is all about personality of person in question. I never thought of Dark Side being bad and Light Side being good. I think it was often described as Jing Jang, both sides need to achieve a perfect balance.

For example I know I would probably fall into Dark Side because I usually hate very structured and strict environment. However I am not a bad person, I always try to help others, but following rules was never for me. I can discipline myself, but I hate it when somebody tries to issue their perspective of discipline.

I can understand the need for discipline when training, I did some Martial Arts. Passion for the art and desire to protect myself and others was more important for me than to show up and work on new techniques. However learning some discipline is important too, because passion comes and goes away in waves. That's why I think neither side is good nor bad, but I still think I would be more prone to "Dark" side.

That's why I play Warlock (And Monk).

How doesn't it...control is hard...if control was easy then the world would be filled with alcoholics, addicts, and obese and lazy people.

It is so much easier to give in than to control...I don't see how people having a hard time dealing with their emotions is anything but out of control. If they can't deal with them obviously they can't control them...if you can't control your emotions and deal with them what is to stop you from lashing out in a fit of rage if something presses your buttons?

If you completely suppress and ignore your emotions you're a robot, which makes you cold...while some may consider Jedi cold, they have their reasons and don't completely shut themselves off. But Jedi aren't completely emotionless, if that were so then the galaxy would of been spared Darth Vader because Obi would of ended him...he couldn't do it because of his emotions.

It is hard to create but easy to destroy...

[Aquamonkey]

indeed. backs up what i menetioned in the last 2 pages.

Fel is most dangerous when wielded by an arcane ordered and trained mind, there is a more schorlarly understand of fundamentals that yields much stronger results. if kil'jaeden just pumps you with more power, your crudely woven fel ball will blast a whole building down as opposed to just a bottle.

I think blizzard often has to over-empahsise fel so it registers to you as something very dangerous, so you can feel the reaction of the poeple they are trying to describe, but they also make it quite clear on many instance, incl game balance, that in it's nature it is no more powerful. More destructive yes, or more conducive to destruction (better at destroying) but not more powerful.

KJ didn't just pump them full of power, he also filled their minds with spells to use that power. However, this knowledge was very limited, unlike the comprehensive education the Kirin Tor receive.

Fel is more powerful according to Antonidas.

"As I have said before, I am becoming increasingly disturbed by the dangerously vast potential of certain schools of magic, and the contrasting amount of laws and boundaries that should be set to limit them. Furthermore, comprehensive research on these volatile schools shows a trend of decreasing academic prerequisites yielding increasingly powerful outcomes.

A student of mine asked me today, "Why are there so many limitations on traditional portals, when Fel portals can be made twice as large and last ten times as long?" The student was not yet educated in the abstraction of what is practical versus what is achievable, yet the question held within me a certain duality: What future is there for the established practices of magic when so many wild variations threaten to overshadow them?

I do all I can to stifle studies of Fel magics and necromancy here, yet I find myself both disturbed and enthralled by their potential. I refuse to believe that that their efficiency so soundly trumps the common criticisms of being unstable or "evil" that these schools hold the monopoly of avenues for magical progress. Yet when witnessing the massive infernal for one's self, or seeing acres of land blighted at the wave of a hand, I fear my beliefs may soon shift from gospel to dogma in the minds of my peers."

Basically, less effort yields greater effects compared to standard magic used by magi.

[Zenny]

1. Belief should never be stated as fact in an argument.

2. Half Demon/Half Titan is the unbalance I'm talking about.* A Hybrid killed the Titans not a "pureblooded" from the Burning Legion.

3. 2. As for the actual battle between the Titans Aggramar crossed swords with Fel-fueled Sargeras alone and shattered both of their blades clash. "Their two blades met, igniting a furious explosion of Fel and Arcane Power. When the torrent of warring energies finally subsided, Sargeras and Aggramar saw that both of their weapons had been shattered." "Sargeras and the Betrayal". Chronicle Vol.1

"Tis not the size of a young knaves Blade, but by the Lust in his thrust by which Legends are made." ~ Hung

1. I never stated that as fact, not in my original post nor the one following up to it.

2. And?

3. Aggramar was getting his shit wrecked before that point though.

[Chipskunk]

Which is a stronger source?

I prefer not a poll, instead discuss. I personally don't know, I've always head that Arcane is the most powerful.

we do not know of a counter to fel magic. it seems as though it is all-corrupting and all-powerful.

MAYBE arcane is the counter to fel, based on the aggramar/sarg fight, but they were using swords that were blown up after the explosion from the collision of magics. doesn't say they countered each other, just BOOM, swords broken

[Selastan]

Basically, less effort yields greater effects compared to standard magic used by magi.

True, but I do believe there is a cap. A strong flame that burns out very quickly. The most powerful warlock < most powerful mage.