Ion Hazzikostas on leveling and pristine servers

[Vaelorian]

It's long, and it's boring. When your friends are waiting and counting on you to reach endgame to do endgame content and you are chugging away merrily doing a level a day just because there are people like you with rose tinted glasses on complaining to no end about making irrelevant content relevant for the sake of nostalgia.

honestly when does this happen exactly? Do you have friends currently playing in WoW that you would make a new character for and speedlevel to be up there asap? I can imagine this only for FOTM pvp and for "requiring" a specific class for mythic raiding that the guild lacks.
Besides your friends should help you level. But offcourse I do get your point, this would suck a bit for those kinds of people.

Oh okay, so that has nothing to do with leveling quickly. Other than useless and pointless whining about how gear gets replaced quickly. Whoop dee doo, that totally warrants a redesign to satisfy a vocal minority.

No I think you misunderstand my intention about the gear. What happens when you level more slowly and it takes more effort? Provided ofcourse that WoW gives you the way to actually enjoy that content the way you want to right? Well what happens is that everytime you find something that gives you more character power, you feel a slight sensation in your brain. You'll be happy about finding that piece of gear right? Same as such when every other level you gained a talentpoint. While insignificant into itself, it was really nice to be rewarded. You had something to look forward to. "just one more level before I go to bed!"
Gear worked similarly but more random offcourse. And that randomness is also fun. You are riddled with anticipation about what might have dropped. Maybe this time you'll get that piece that will allow you to plow your way a little more safer and quicker for the next 5 levels. Currently if you would do that (pick up that blue piece of dungeon gear that would in vanilla allow for 5 levels of progress before getting a new piece), you'd replace it within a few hours

Please don't misunderstand my point about replacing gear quickly with: I am full mythic gear and the next expansion is going to make it all stupid.

]

[Seefer]

The problem is, zone storylines aren't fun anymore when you're levelling your 10th character. Hell, they're not fun anymore when you're levelling your third. There are so many people who have levelled so many characters, if you make levelling slow and challenging, it's going to be so fucking painful to level more.

And before you say "Just buy a boost then", fuck that. I'm not paying 50 euros for that. I just want to have the option to go through the levelling quickly: AKA heirlooms. People who want to enjoy the storyline can just not use heirlooms and do it the normal way.

You still have heirlooms, and I have 13 100's, I have been an alt whore since TBC.............was never a big deal to me, play the game how it is meant to be or well.......not at all?

[Darsithis]

He actually talked about that. They want it to feel epic, but it can't feel epic if you keep oneshotting mobs before they even engage you (for example).

Absolutely. I mean, don't get me wrong, I've leveled now probably 30 or 40 characters, but I get bored so easy because I never do anything but wade through everything, murdering them. Quests talk about how hard it will be to do this or how much support I need to do that, but I just leave a path of bloody bodies in my wake without breaking a sweat. I want to feel immersed.

[Darsithis]

But really, when has that NOT been the case? I don't remember a time when mobs were "hard" or a challenge in WoW while leveling.

Hell, my first character that hit 60 was a Rogue and I just ran around ambushing the shit out of things. My priest just multi-dotted and feared camps to death, my Pally pulled entire zones onto himself without breaking a sweat...I'm really struggling to remember this time when leveling was "epic" or something.

If you're referring to classic, yes, there were specific specs that could trounce the world easily. There were a lot that couldn't, up to Cata before it all changed. Boomkin, for instance, was incredibly difficult to level initially and I nearly quit the game in frustration.

[SirBeef]

It won't feel epic if that is the same leveling experience as we have now, only slower. A slow leveling was relevant in vanilla because there was a lot of pre cap group content, content which has long been removed from the game or trivialized.

Group questing could be completely ignored. It was slow because there were 60 levels and dragging things out was the way MMOs kept subscribers back then. Group ontent had nothing to do with slow leveling back in vanilla.

[procne]

But really, when has that NOT been the case? I don't remember a time when mobs were "hard" or a challenge in WoW while leveling.

Hell, my first character that hit 60 was a Rogue and I just ran around ambushing the shit out of things. My priest just multi-dotted and feared camps to death, my Pally pulled entire zones onto himself without breaking a sweat...I'm really struggling to remember this time when leveling was "epic" or something.

Maybe it was class imbalance then or maybe you are just that awesome. I remember playing on my mage, shaman, and druid in vanilla / TBC. I had to heal / drink (not saying eating was fun, just that mobs did some damage) every couple of mobs because they actually did damage to me. Pulling 2 mobs could result in death, so had to be aware of surroundings. I had to use crowd control with my mage to minimise incoming damage.

When leveling in WoD I had to pull groups of 3-4 mobs to get anywhere this difficulty.

[Darsithis]

Well, that part is true. I remember Moonkin specifically being a pain in the ass.

That seems a lot more like a, "Some specs sucked" problem (and we know that many of them did back then) than a "questing used to be epic" thing.

Questing has never been epic but it's so far from being even remotely dangerous or useful now that something needs to change.

[SirBeef]

Blizzard are like politics. They promise everything, even stars from the sky, but only before winning elections. Then they usually forget about such a promises. I guess, it's one of those populist statements, that give hope to some players and even sound like "promises" for others, so they continue playing, while waiting for it to happen in nearest future. But it's nothing, but empty words now. As you may know, we can't believe official announces now, not even just waffle during their interviews.

Without heirlooms leveling is completely ok now - no location outleveleving happens. But heirlooms are godsend. I have only about 40 days to play this game till I won't quit it forever most likely. And I need to bring 7 characters to at least 90lvl. 10 levels per hour won't be possible without heirlooms.

Actually Blizzard never promises anything. They merely talk about what they would like to do. Then that is wrongly interpreted by some as promises. You know this as well but have an agenda you want to spread.

[JustRob]

If they're gonna do this, they should bring group quests back too, and remove the LFD tool. You want that epic experience, go fly to your dungeons yourself.

[SirBeef]

I recently leveled a character on a realm with some old friends (it has been a long while) and I did notice out leveling the content in the zone WELL before the zone was complete which did feel clunky as hell. I only used non-xp boosting looms as well for the specific reason of trying to avoid that (because yeah I know, fully loomed toon is going to do that). I also don't think I was touched in the first 4 or 5 zones as a ranged class. Not a single finger on me. Low level leveling does need some work I have to admit. I found myself insanely board even though I was going through zones for the first time as alliance and even reading along and following the storylines. It just had no risk or challenge attached to it. Reward seemed well covered though. I had 50 or 60 gold when I was like level 30, good of my level gear, and just about anything I could want within reason for that level and not being handed a lump of gold from my main or buddies.

Not sure if this pertains to you or not but you can still finish the zone even if the quests are greyed out. If the intention of someone leveling is to enjoy the story then out leveling a zone should not matter since you would finish the story or chain regardless of getting experience or not.

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Blizz is greedy. They're slowing down leveling and playing on our nostalgia just to boost their Cash pig sales!!!

/s

That are totally optional and no one is required to use.

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What's so fun about out leveling a zone before the story is even done?

Why do you have to leave the zone before you complete the story?

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This all day long. Take note Ion.

I think that will happen if it is well received in Legion.

[MasterHamster]

Why do you have to leave the zone before you complete the story?

Perhaps because the quest and mobs are grey. Wild guess.
Understanding player psychology is kinda important to MMO design
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You know things are horrible when people are starting to actively say that leveling, something that can be sort of summarized as something to conquer and get past, needs to be slower.

But it took this long because it's tough to explain to people why they hate leveling even though it's faster than it ever has been. Yeah I understand, you've done it before. You want a new class at max, where sadly 99% of the game currently is. You've collected enough bear asses to fill a Grand Canyon. You've killed every single type of boar imaginable. And yet you find yourself annoyed and impatient even though you can level so many times in a single dungeon you find yourself checking your character panel just to check what level you actually are, because you stopped paying attention.

Because leveling this fast and easy LOSES IT'S ENTIRE SOUL. Where is the satisfaction when you were never challenged or had to think getting to 100? When was the last time you thought "Oh shit I have to interrupt that spell!" or "Better not pull anymore or I'm in trouble..." or perhaps something as insane as "Should send that guy a whisper so we can group up and do this faster together!"

What... 2008? Maybe? At least that was the last time I made an ingame friend while leveling outside a dungeon.

And no, they can't just boost heirlooms to compensate because this is not something that should be completely in the hands of the player's "choice". You shouldn't be able to CHOOSE to make nearly everything a one-shot snorefest because the very ability to choose an easier path makes it the ONLY choice. How many people whined their arses off about the Dragon Soul zone-wide nerf and yet NEVER turned it off? Some, sure, but far from enough. Because it doesn't feel like a choice, and that is very important in MMO design. Technically possible is NOT a good way to assess your design. It's a character progression-based MMO, and 99.99% of players are like electricity choosing the path of least resistance. Only the most awful of developer wouldn't have that in mind. They sure wouldn't be able to make a very compelling game that has any longevity for players anyway.

But fine, keep heirlooms, they are too engrained in our minds to be removed now, but TONE THEM DOWN. You don't need to deal 4x the damage of a non-loom player while at the same time earning 50-60% additional exp. It's ridiculous. Heirlooms are so powerful you can't even tell the difference those few times you get an upgrade because you're twoshotting every-f'ing-thing regardless.

Blizzard needs to make a bold move here.
They need to fundamentally rebalance low-levels to make it feel engaging and a bit challenging at times again. You'll notice the difference once you realize your brain is actually required to hit 100. You stop thinking about leveling as fast as humanely possible and instead focus on tackling each task one at a time. Bit of planning, bit of refraining from being reckless, and just maybe you realize there's now actually a reason to group up with other people nearby, instead of getting pissed off because they are 'stealing your quest mobs'?


However, there's a problem. Slower leveling doesn't work all too well with the current talent system. They'd need to have some sort of smaller, in-between talents that you fill completely on your way to the next "15"-tier. Choose to boost a certain ability perhaps, but once you hit max level these are all filled. Because spending a talent point, even for a very minor bonus, has a very real subconscious effect.

[Illuminance]

If they slow down leveling, they'd better get rid of the paid boosts. Otherwise, I think it's just Blizzard being greedy. They can't have it both ways: if they care about immersion and game experience, then a credit card swipe should not still be in place.

[Erolian]

Leveling was never good or interesting content anyways imo. Obviously not everyone feels that way but I wouldn't have even played WoW if I hadn't had friends telling me to play it and raid with them. I'd have started in TBC and quit the game due to the tedious and boring grind that is apparently questing in this game never knowing that I'd enjoy end game content that has absolutely nothing to do with what I just spent days grinding through. Speeding it up was never a bad change to me.

If they want to make a good change how about a more engaging alternative to collectinng 25 boar's asses 500 times instead of making it harder to collect said items.

[Darkeon]

I've said it all along:

-Have a long, challenging, fun levelling experience for those of us that enjoy that.
-Also have a free max-level boost option available for those of us that don't.

That's the only way they're ever going to satisfy everyone.

And Blizzard would be satisfied in losing 50 euros per boost? As if lol

I got high hopes with the scaling system. Keeping the leveling speed as it is, but being able to level in whatever area, whenever and whatever way you wish. This way you won't be skipping storylines and one is not handicapped by staying in a specific area for too long.

Sure one might not experience -all- areas while leveling from 1-to-cap; But I'd say that only adds to replay-ability when playing with the alts - or even if the person wishes to go full perfectionist, he can do all those areas as level-cap and get increased rewards for it.

[Seefer]

If they slow down leveling, they'd better get rid of the paid boosts. Otherwise, I think it's just Blizzard being greedy. They can't have it both ways: if they care about immersion and game experience, then a credit card swipe should not still be in place.

Yes they can.

[SirBeef]

I'm just happy that they finally realize there's a problem with leveling.

I'm sure they've know for a while now. They just publicly mentioned it now. They know what people talk about. CMs read the forums everyday. Devs read forums pertaining to their role. I'm certain this zone scaling thing is something they plan on bringing to the rest of the game. How excatly would it work is anyone's guess. But I bet it's coming.

Ideally I would like to see an evolving world where there is no time paradox in leveling. Current leaders are in place. Current expansion storylines are referenced while in non max level zones. This might bee too ambitious but I would like to see it.

[Vaelorian]

If they slow down leveling, they'd better get rid of the paid boosts. Otherwise, I think it's just Blizzard being greedy. They can't have it both ways: if they care about immersion and game experience, then a credit card swipe should not still be in place.

Why would they want to get rid of paid boosts? They will only be more popular. So you have people who currently and never will like leveling... they can go boost themselves. And people who want a meaningful leveling experience... they get what they want aswell. And Blizzard makes a lot of cash. Good for everyone.
Oh wait.. the ones that don't want to level aren't happy with paying? They want to skip everything and not pay for it. Mmmm.... why is that in Blizzards interest?

[Mefistophelis]

Am I the only one around here that thinks the leveling is just another hurdle towards your goal? Isn't the game played at max level or what?
They are talking about making the leveling longer, but it's just another artificial prolonging of content, where content is actually non-existent for the first 100 levels.
They want to make leveling longer and harder, then they should also balance low level pvp too. That has been unbalanced for far too long.

[melodramocracy]

If they slow down leveling, they'd better get rid of the paid boosts. Otherwise, I think it's just Blizzard being greedy. They can't have it both ways: if they care about immersion and game experience, then a credit card swipe should not still be in place.

But that's exactly what should happen, and is already in place if you think about it from the angle of realm transfers. Paid boosts should be the alternative for the immediate gratification crowd, and a better leveling experience should be what's left for players who want to pursue it.

I'm not sure why anyone would have faith that they're actually going to correct things though. You'll see a half measure or 2, and that's about it.

[WowIsDead64]

Actually Blizzard never promises anything. They merely talk about what they would like to do. Then that is wrongly interpreted by some as promises. You know this as well but have an agenda you want to spread.

When something is selling point, i.e. they convince players to pay money in advance for their game via this argument - they can't simply forget about it or change their minds. Especially when game is in such terrible conditions, as it now, so they have to beg players to continue playing - not even just promise something. Many players pay, just because Blizzard say "We admit our fault - you need to bear a little bit, cuz we can't change things instantly, but everything will be fixed in future xpack". But if developers would say, that game will be unbearable for another 2 years - I would stop playing immediately, simply because this game has no future. And if game has no future - I'd better invest my time into another game, that has.