Classic World of Warcraft Discussion [Megathread]

[miffy23]

Didn't say you needed full raid gear, of course you could carry people. I could get carried through Mythic HFC right now, that doesn't make it the intended way to do things nor trivialize the content. Try joining a pug AQ40 in nothing but leveling gear and see how many raids take you...

TBC-style gating wasn't horrendous at all, it was perfection. Attunements + The Ashtongue questline saw to it that you experienced the entire game until the nerfbat came with whatever patch it was, 2.4.3 I think. YOU may not like it, and that's perfectly swell as I'm not asking for current-patch servers to be taken down. I'm just asking some TBC/Vanilla servers be put up.

Again, just because you don't like what you hear doesn't make it not true. Vanilla and BC had the most immersive experience I've ever seen in a video game. People like you see it as a chore to do things like attunements or level pre-nerf. To me, it's fun. It's time consuming, in some instances difficult, and extremely rewarding when you finally finish it. You clearly don't share that sentiment, which I have to say again is fine because I'm not asking your game be taken away like mine was. I'm just asking to be able to play mine.

Again, you're proving the point. You're not making any kind of objective argument, simply that you liked it. That is fine, that's cool. There is however no objective argument to be had that it was better.

You're also being facetious - you could get carried through Mythic HFC NOW, it's impossible to do so during progress. However, you did not have to be geared from previous raids in order to be part of a 40man in Vanilla.

TBC style gating was cool for the active raiding crowd - which I'm a part of - it was horrendous for the majority.

The game is as immersive as you want it to be. 99% of all posts I see about Vanilla/TBC being better are simply down to that person having had a better experience, whether because everything feels better when it's new and you'Re not as jaded, whether because they had a better community surrounding them at the time, etc. I've never seen an argument for any of the mechanic design of previous expansions to return that held any water whatsoever. People are conflating their personal experience with the reasons for that experience.

Garrisons having been an appalling misstep does not mean that taking a couple of dozen steps backwards to design concepts that were dropped for very solid reasons is the answer.

[Jericho21]

Just gate the content like Vanilla/TBC with attunement quests. I felt completely awesome finishing the UBRS attunement ring quest. TBC raid attunements where you had to run around and get pieces from heroic 5mans was awesome. Gate the content and fuckers won't be whining about blowing thru latest content like they do their allowance from divorced mommy. Sunwell Isle was great because it was gated due to the server's participation as well as Big Blue's own schedule. AQ was gated (literally) until the AQ Opening event which required the entire server on both factions to work on it PLUS the scepter gathering. Naxx40 was gated, to an extent.

I highly enjoyed the attunement quests because I *knew* I wasn't ready for the content until I finished the attunements. The Netherwing unlocking though? What a PITA.

[Erwarth]

I'm not asking your game be taken away like mine was. I'm just asking to be able to play mine.

Set up Legacy Server WILL hinder Legion development, so you're asking to us to sacrifice what may be a good xpack for the sake of a very vocal minority. FOR NOW, Legacy is an absolute NO. Legion needs to be polished, Legion need all their dev force to focus on it to deliver a good product.

Legacy will be discussed further more after the release of Legion and the first round of polishing. Blizzcon may have an announcement about it if the trends continue past Legion's launch.

Those who ask for Legacy right now is nothing more than entitled babies who want their cookies right now.

[Glaziola]

Why not make a server that similar to vanilla-wotlk, but have aoe looting, have auto looting, a few gamebreaking bugs fixed, pet/mount storage, 1.5 second mount up timer instead of 3 sec, extent buff durations from warrior shout etc. from 2min to atleast 30min, make buffs buff everyone instead of single target. Those are personally the things I hated back in the day, it was just annoying.

Keep everything else the same as it was. Easy money for blizz.

- - - Updated - - -

Set up Legacy Server WILL hinder Legion development, so you're asking to us to sacrifice what may be a good xpack for the sake of a very vocal minority. FOR NOW, Legacy is an absolute NO. Legion needs to be polished, Legion need all their dev force to focus on it to deliver a good product.

Legacy will be discussed further more after the release of Legion and the first round of polishing. Blizzcon may have an announcement about it if the trends continue past Legion's launch.

Those who ask for Legacy right now is nothing more than entitled babies who want their cookies right now.

They have plenty of resources for legion if they wanted to, just shut down overwatch, hots and hearthstone or move them on standby, stop updates on those and focus on the main game which is World of Warcraft.

[Etselion]

All that talking about making leveling a bit harder via hotfixes pretty much kills the idea of legacy servers. Even the Pristine bs that nobody liked.

At the end was Ion the one who crushed Nost fags dreams and not Mike. Who would've thought.

[Glaziola]

It would be funny if blizz makes legacy servers and makes us go and buy vanilla wow again like the original box for 49.99€.

[miffy23]

Why not make a server that similar to vanilla-wotlk, but have aoe looting, have auto looting, a few gamebreaking bugs fixed, pet/mount storage, 1.5 second mount up timer instead of 3 sec, extent buff durations from warrior shout etc. from 2min to atleast 30min, make buffs buff everyone instead of single target. Those are personally the things I hated back in the day, it was just annoying.

Keep everything else the same as it was. Easy money for blizz.

- - - Updated - - -


They have plenty of resources for legion if they wanted to, just shut down overwatch, hots and hearthstone or move them on standby, stop updates on those and focus on the main game which is World of Warcraft.

LOL yes just shut down gigantic cash cows that make far more money than WoW currently does to cater to a tiny, unprofitable demographic.

[zmp]

This is the typical unreflected personal bias answer that is at the core of the entire hysteria. Ergo, there's nothing to it and can be utterly dismissed. This stance has no root in objective fact whatsoever - you could have the same type of community "feel" that Nostalrius people claim to treasure so highly on live, they just choose to feel like special snowflakes in outdated content with inferior mechanics.

TLDR: "I have an opinion and if you dont agree with mine, then you are being subjective, waaaah!"

[Struggle]

Again, you're proving the point. You're not making any kind of objective argument, simply that you liked it. That is fine, that's cool. There is however no objective argument to be had that it was better.

There actually is an argument that it was better that's objective. TBC had about 8-10 million more people playing it than WoD has, Wrath had even more. You could say that all those people simply liked it like I did, but that's the name of the game here since we're talking about ActiBlizz. Subscriptions. Money money money.

You're also being facetious - you could get carried through Mythic HFC NOW, it's impossible to do so during progress. However, you did not have to be geared from previous raids in order to be part of a 40man in Vanilla.

TBC style gating was cool for the active raiding crowd - which I'm a part of - it was horrendous for the majority.

No, I'm not. How many people do you know of that walked into the Frost Wing of Naxx40 in leveling greens? Hell, good luck getting in with full prebis even.

It's not being facetious, it's you saying you didn't have to do a single raid and you could still get into a Naxx40 run and me calling you out on how that's not even remotely true. And gating wasn't horrendous for the majority, it gave regular players something to strive for and work towards. You're getting on my case about objective arguments but are posting nothing but your own personal feelings alone. The game 'evolving' (devolving, if you ask me) to combat/remove these features isn't evidence that they were bad, it's evidence that Blizzard removed those features. That's it.

The game is as immersive as you want it to be. 99% of all posts I see about Vanilla/TBC being better are simply down to that person having had a better experience, whether because everything feels better when it's new and you'Re not as jaded, whether because they had a better community surrounding them at the time, etc. I've never seen an argument for any of the mechanic design of previous expansions to return that held any water whatsoever. People are conflating their personal experience with the reasons for that experience. Garrisons having been an appalling misstep does not mean that taking a couple of dozen steps backwards to design concepts that were dropped for very solid reasons is the answer.

The game is not as immersive as you want it to be, in fact it's hardly immersive at all anymore. Pretty much all grinding is gone thanks to gating a bunch of other things aside from raiding. I leveled 10 characters to 100 (more than 5 from lvl 1) when I came back to WoD and was only subbed for hell...maybe 6 months? That would never happen in TBC or Vanilla, ruining leveling immersion. I can have those 100's geared within a few days on my own thanks to catch up mechanics. I can kill the final boss in the game by sitting in a queue for a few minutes on a Tuesday without dying in terrible gear. Yea, it's not on Mythic, but it's still the last boss. From a lore standpoint (my main interest in this game, even when I was a hardcore raider) I'm done for a year since there's no new content. No more attunements, no more necessary reputations...the closest thing we have to something like that was the Wrathion/Khadgar quest chains which I did enjoy albeit their purpose to keep old content relevant for all intents and purposes didn't work at all.


You're giving just as much objectivity as I am. You like the game more now, I liked it more then. That's the bottom line. There is no right/wrong. It's ALL opinion.

Set up Legacy Server WILL hinder Legion development, so you're asking to us to sacrifice what may be a good xpack for the sake of a very vocal minority. FOR NOW, Legacy is an absolute NO. Legion needs to be polished, Legion need all their dev force to focus on it to deliver a good product.

Legacy will be discussed further more after the release of Legion and the first round of polishing. Blizzcon may have an announcement about it if the trends continue past Legion's launch.

Those who ask for Legacy right now is nothing more than entitled babies who want their cookies right now.

No, it won't. There are more software engineers in the world than the ones that work on the Legion dev team I can vouch for personally. Hire them.

We're not under the impression it won't cost any money and take no time. They don't, however, have to pull from the Legion dev team as there is enough evidence to support the fiscal benefits of hiring those employees and getting these servers up.

[Erwarth]

They have plenty of resources for legion if they wanted to, just shut down overwatch, hots and hearthstone or move them on standby, stop updates on those and focus on the main game which is World of Warcraft.

Real life doesn't work that way. Overwatch developper may not be able to do wow stuff And no, World of Warcraft isn't the main game.

And it's not about having MORE dev force, but to not have LESS dev force by splitting the team to bring up Legacy.

[Glaziola]

LOL yes just shut down gigantic cash cows that make far more money than WoW currently does to cater to a tiny, unprofitable demographic.

5-4mil active paying subscribers doesnt seem that tiny and unprofitable to me but then again I have no idea how much money their other games earn them.
All I know is that they used the money from wow to build all the other games instead of investing back in it. Thats why the expansions had less and less development.

[dd614]

Set up Legacy Server WILL hinder Legion development, so you're asking to us to sacrifice what may be a good xpack for the sake of a very vocal minority. FOR NOW, Legacy is an absolute NO. Legion needs to be polished, Legion need all their dev force to focus on it to deliver a good product.

Legacy will be discussed further more after the release of Legion and the first round of polishing. Blizzcon may have an announcement about it if the trends continue past Legion's launch.

Those who ask for Legacy right now is nothing more than entitled babies who want their cookies right now.

Shameful commentary. You're the one crying and moaning like a baby how others shouldn't even be able to enjoy vanilla anymore. You're the entitled one. They're saying let vanilla fans enjoy vanilla and Legion fans enjoy Legion, hypocrite.

[Erwarth]

Shameful commentary. You're the one crying and moaning like a baby how others shouldn't even be able to enjoy vanilla anymore. You're the entitled one. They're saying let vanilla fans enjoy vanilla and Legion fans enjoy Legion, hypocrite.

I'm not saying that but whatever and i'm not entitled to anything. I take what Blizzard give me, I don't insult them to give them what I want

Wait for Legion to be released and complete before thinking about Vanilla Server. There's more people on retail than there is wanting Vanilla. That's about priorities. After the disappointment WoD was, we don't want a WoD 2 with Legion.

No, it won't. There are more software engineers in the world than the ones that work on the Legion dev team I can vouch for personally. Hire them.

We're not under the impression it won't cost any money and take no time. They don't, however, have to pull from the Legion dev team as there is enough evidence to support the fiscal benefits of hiring those employees and getting these servers up.

I was talking about those who want Legacy right now. Of course they can hire more dev, even the Nost one. But right now, it's better for them to focus on delivering a well polished product with Legion. And lots of pro-Legacy doesn't thing it will cost money or times. Just see the "If people in their basements can do it for free, so can Blizz !" argument

[miffy23]

There actually is an argument that it was better that's objective. TBC had about 8-10 million more people playing it than WoD has, Wrath had even more. You could say that all those people simply liked it like I did, but that's the name of the game here since we're talking about ActiBlizz. Subscriptions. Money money money.

It couldn't POSSIBLY have anything to do with a game getting long in the tooth and novelty, could it.
There is absolutely no argument whatsoever to be had that QoL, mechanics, production, pretty much everything hasn't gotten better in every single iteration of the game.

No, I'm not. How many people do you know of that walked into the Frost Wing of Naxx40 in leveling greens? Hell, good luck getting in with full prebis even.

It's not being facetious, it's you saying you didn't have to do a single raid and you could still get into a Naxx40 run and me calling you out on how that's not even remotely true. And gating wasn't horrendous for the majority, it gave regular players something to strive for and work towards. You're getting on my case about objective arguments but are posting nothing but your own personal feelings alone. The game 'evolving' (devolving, if you ask me) to combat/remove these features isn't evidence that they were bad, it's evidence that Blizzard removed those features. That's it.

Of course, you could stretch the narrative to an extreme to support your weak point. Only that nobody claimed "leveling greens". Dungeon gear, some crafteds? Sure, happened all the time. Gl trying that in Mythic progress today =)

You're wearing rose-tinted goggles about gating - I was part of the raiding crowd that LOVED that. But there was a big reason why there was a shift towards more easily accessible raids. And it wasn't because gating was universally praised, you know.

The game is not as immersive as you want it to be, in fact it's hardly immersive at all anymore. Pretty much all grinding is gone thanks to gating a bunch of other things aside from raiding. I leveled 10 characters to 100 (more than 5 from lvl 1) when I came back to WoD and was only subbed for hell...maybe 6 months? That would never happen in TBC or Vanilla, ruining leveling immersion. I can have those 100's geared within a few days on my own thanks to catch up mechanics. I can kill the final boss in the game by sitting in a queue for a few minutes on a Tuesday without dying in terrible gear. Yea, it's not on Mythic, but it's still the last boss. From a lore standpoint (my main interest in this game, even when I was a hardcore raider) I'm done for a year since there's no new content. No more attunements, no more necessary reputations...the closest thing we have to something like that was the Wrathion/Khadgar quest chains which I did enjoy albeit their purpose to keep old content relevant for all intents and purposes didn't work at all.

"I liked gating and endless grinding, therefore it is objectively better". No, there is no such argument. That's my whole point.

You're giving just as much objectivity as I am. You like the game more now, I liked it more then. That's the bottom line. There is no right/wrong. It's ALL opinion.

I don't like it more, I like it equally. It has changed, evolved, in many ways for the better, in some ways you just get jaded over time and things lose their novelty. That's the way of life. Sometimes they misstep, like with garrisons. They correct it.

[Struggle]

I was talking about those who want Legacy right now. Of course they can hire more dev, even the Nost one. But right now, it's better for them to focus on delivering a well polished product with Legion. And lots of pro-Legacy doesn't thing it will cost money or times. Just see the "If people in their basements can do it for free, so can Blizz !" argument

One has nothing to do with the other save for the corporation behind the project. If you hire new devs, they can focus on Legacy now while the Legion dev team does what they've been doing for 4 years or however long they claim to have been working on the next expansion. Legacy realms could easily be done without so much as consulting the current WoW dev team save for maybe Battle.Net integration or some server-side architecture information that requires an email to be forwarded.

There are pro-Legacy people that believe it won't take resources and can be done quickly, and those people are idiots that aren't considering both sides. Just like the people who are anti-Legacy and think that Legacy servers would ruin the game, take development time away from current-patch WoW, think it isn't financially worth doing, etc.

There are good and bad people on both sides, lumping up troll/moronic opinion with one group and not the other is ridiculous.

It couldn't POSSIBLY have anything to do with a game getting long in the tooth and novelty, could it.
There is absolutely no argument whatsoever to be had that QoL, mechanics, production, pretty much everything hasn't gotten better in every single iteration of the game.

Could be. Could be that the game has turned to shit and no one wants to play it anymore. Could also be neither.

Your subjective opinion not withstanding, more people played the game during BC and Wrath by a VERY large margin. Surely those QoL changes, mechanics, etc would have brought those people back if they were so damn great?

And production hasn't gotten better, or are you forgetting the year long stretches of ICC, DS, SoO, HFC, and inevitably the last Legion raid as well? Production, in spite of their "doubled team size", has gotten worse and worse as is evidenced by WoD and it's half-as-many-content-patches awfulness.

Of course, you could stretch the narrative to an extreme to support your weak point. Only that nobody claimed "leveling greens". Dungeon gear, some crafteds? Sure, happened all the time. Gl trying that in Mythic progress today =)

I wish there were Legacy realms right now so you could go tank Naxx40 in prebis and see how far you get before the raid drops you. I'm guessing after the third wipe on Anub'Rekhan when he two shots you and your prebis geared healers can't keep up. =)

You're wearing rose-tinted goggles about gating - I was part of the raiding crowd that LOVED that. But there was a big reason why there was a shift towards more easily accessible raids. And it wasn't because gating was universally praised, you know.

Yea, a vocal minority of some casuals that didn't want to get better at the game in order to progress through it properly complained at the top of their lungs that they deserve to see all the content too, how hard everyone else worked to see it be damned.

"I liked gating and endless grinding, therefore it is objectively better". No, there is no such argument. That's my whole point.

"I didn't like gating and endless grinding, therefore it is objectively better." There is such an argument as this, though? I never claimed objectivity in my opinions of the previous iterations of the game, I said and always have that I liked it more personally.

It has changed, evolved, in many ways for the better, in some ways you just get jaded over time and things lose their novelty. That's the way of life. Sometimes they misstep, like with garrisons. They correct it.

As far as them being better, that's subjective opinion, so again get off your "muh objectivity" high horse when you're talking just as much opinion as I am. At least I know I'm being subjective...

Further, dozens of video games have evolved. Which Mortal Kombat iteration are we on now? What about Zelda? Mario? The difference is I can go plug in my old nintendo and play those if I want since I purchased them. I purchased Vanilla, TBC, Wrath, Cata, MoP, and WoD as well...yet I can only play one of those.

This isn't a 'rose-colored glasses' or 'jaded' point of view, nor one where I'm trying to stomp out modern WoW or its community. It's a 'I own this game, enjoyed it a lot, and would like to play it again' point of view. That's it. Objective, subjective, biased, nostalgic, call it whatever the hell you want that makes you happy about it. I just simply want to play my favorite game again.

[Molis]

If you actually think that this is somehow "objectively" true. Then you are, frankly, not very bright. The number 1 factor for how good a game is, is how enjoyable it is to play it.

I can only hope that you are trolling. But I honestly suspect that you are not.

Chalk up another toxic Pro-Legacy comment.

That is his opinion, and believe it or not he can have one.

I am not anti-legacy, I just do not see any staying power
I did also play Vanilla at a high level.

Good
Everything was new. Lots of exploration.

Bad
Why the hell would i want to farm Black lotus for 8 hours a week again?

[anon5123]

It´s the same game, just much worse.

Nice opinion you've got there.

If you dont like retail wow, you would HATE vanilla.

Funny, because I don't like retail WoW, but I love vanilla.

Explain that, please.

That is his opinion, and believe it or not he can have one.

Except he's stating his opinion as if it's a fact. He's telling people "no, you're wrong for liking things that I don't like".

Stop defending trolls.

[Eapoe]

One has nothing to do with the other save for the corporation behind the project. If you hire new devs, they can focus on Legacy now while the Legion dev team does what they've been doing for 4 years or however long they claim to have been working on the next expansion. Legacy realms could easily be done without so much as consulting the current WoW dev team save for maybe Battle.Net integration or some server-side architecture information that requires an email to be forwarded.

There are pro-Legacy people that believe it won't take resources and can be done quickly, and those people are idiots that aren't considering both sides. Just like the people who are anti-Legacy and think that Legacy servers would ruin the game, take development time away from current-patch WoW, think it isn't financially worth doing, etc.

There are good and bad people on both sides, lumping up troll/moronic opinion with one group and not the other is ridiculous.



Could be. Could be that the game has turned to shit and no one wants to play it anymore. Could also be neither.

Your subjective opinion not withstanding, more people played the game during BC and Wrath by a VERY large margin. Surely those QoL changes, mechanics, etc would have brought those people back if they were so damn great?

And production hasn't gotten better, or are you forgetting the year long stretches of ICC, DS, SoO, HFC, and inevitably the last Legion raid as well? Production, in spite of their "doubled team size", has gotten worse and worse as is evidenced by WoD and it's half-as-many-content-patches awfulness.



I wish there were Legacy realms right now so you could go tank Naxx40 in prebis and see how far you get before the raid drops you. I'm guessing after the third wipe on Anub'Rekhan when he two shots you and your prebis geared healers can't keep up. =)



Yea, a vocal minority of some casuals that didn't want to get better at the game in order to progress through it properly complained at the top of their lungs that they deserve to see all the content too, how hard everyone else worked to see it be damned.



"I didn't like gating and endless grinding, therefore it is objectively better." There is such an argument as this, though? I never claimed objectivity in my opinions of the previous iterations of the game, I said and always have that I liked it more personally.




As far as them being better, that's subjective opinion, so again get off your "muh objectivity" high horse when you're talking just as much opinion as I am. At least I know I'm being subjective...

Further, dozens of video games have evolved. Which Mortal Kombat iteration are we on now? What about Zelda? Mario? The difference is I can go plug in my old nintendo and play those if I want since I purchased them. I purchased Vanilla, TBC, Wrath, Cata, MoP, and WoD as well...yet I can only play one of those.

This isn't a 'rose-colored glasses' or 'jaded' point of view, nor one where I'm trying to stomp out modern WoW or its community. It's a 'I own this game, enjoyed it a lot, and would like to play it again' point of view. That's it. Objective, subjective, biased, nostalgic, call it whatever the hell you want that makes you happy about it. I just simply want to play my favorite game again.

Why do we always come back to this?
1). Hiring a new team requires budget. A budget that's already applied to WoW and other IP's. To get more of a budget (to not detract from existing IP's, Blizzard needs to ALSO convince Activision it's worth doing as well as the devs who might not be on board at this time.
2). I won't argue against content size. I will give some food for thought though: content is consumed much faster today then it ever was. Whether they put in vanilla styled gating mechanics or not, you run into the same problem of people doing content in one day, then logging out and done with the game until their next round.
3). I wasn't in vanilla, but considering there are multiple people arguing against this mentality, plus the way the game has always been since I started in Wrath, as long as the raid was good and the tank/heal/dps had the right stat weights and knew what they were doing, it's not hard to see 1-2 people getting carried outside of progression.
4). Blizzard wants everyone to see the content, whether casual or hardcore. The game made steps in the right direction for what they are striving for. As far as game health? One can argue that the hardcore from yesteryear miss the niche of being special in a select few of seeing the content. To the contrary though, most of the older hardcore crowd feel that Mythic is not enough in being special anymore and that LFR/Normal somehow takes away from their achievement of clearing the hardest content. Personally, I feel like people just focus on the wrong aspects. With the multiple raid sizes, people tend to focus on "if someone clears LFR, then they did everything I did," and not the personal reward of clearing mythic and being "hardcore."
5). As much as people want to dismiss this idea, or feel like I am trolling, or not being serious, people are still playing WoW. The game is ongoing, and has changed over time. It changed to a point you don't like, but vanilla was not WoW 1, BC was notWoW 2, etc. The game is still WoW, and that's the problem with this arguement. You're don't own WoW as vanilla, you own WoW, and you're free to start it up and play it.

[Thimagryn]

Real life doesn't work that way. Overwatch developper may not be able to do wow stuff And no, World of Warcraft isn't the main game.

Just wanted to point out a bad example. Overwatch Developers came from WoW development originally. Much of Overwatch is the remnants of Titan, which was started by key WoW devs like Kaplan. Even Diablo developers have transitioned into WoW development.

But you are right about it the latter part.

[Molis]

It would be funny if blizz makes legacy servers and makes us go and buy vanilla wow again like the original box for 49.99€.

I had the same thought. Don't forget the $10 sub fee, or you can get the current game and legacy for a $20 premium sub.
What would this do to the private server Pro-Legacy fanatics?
Would they pay and sub?

In my opinion...probably not.