[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Deleted]

As for Jon, he had already decided to break his oaths before he died, so leaving the Night's Watch has nothing to do with his death or with him becoming "colder".

Quite the contrary.
He had sex with Ygritt, but that didn't stop him from defending the NW's from the wildling attack.

And for leaving the NW's, he did want to go help Robb in the first place, but he followed the oath and stayed at Castle Black.
He was conlicted but still followed the Oath. He wanted to break it yes, but he didn't and nothing indicates that he would have without his death.

Now that he saved the wildlings and died for it, he has no more Oath to follow. He can freely end his internal conflict and try to get his family back together.

[Gaman]

As for Jon, he had already decided to break his oaths before he died, so leaving the Night's Watch has nothing to do with his death or with him becoming "colder".

No he had not. Stop taking book shit that have not happend in the show, and tell it as a show fact just because you wish it should be so.

[Deleted]

Looks like Spanish Spoiler is calling it quits, so no more leaks for now. Big mistake to identify himself imo.

[Deleted]

Looks like Spanish Spoiler is calling it quits, so no more leaks for now. Big mistake to identify himself imo.

It's the biggest mistake he made for him and his "source". If his source got found out through him he probs got someone fired.

[Deleted]

Quite the contrary.
He had sex with Ygritt, but that didn't stop him from defending the NW's from the wildling attack.

And for leaving the NW's, he did want to go help Robb in the first place, but he followed the oath and stayed at Castle Black.
He was conlicted but still followed the Oath. He wanted to break it yes, but he didn't and nothing indicates that he would have without his death.

Now that he saved the wildlings and died for it, he has no more Oath to follow. He can freely end his internal conflict and try to get his family back together.

You're mixing up two very different situations: Helping Rob and going back to Winterfell. He was talked out of fighting alongside Rob, but he had already made up his mind about taking back Winterfell. He had even asked anyone willing, to join him in his fight. That was how he initially broke his oath and why he was stabbed by his brothers. He never broke an oath in his time beyond the wall.

No he had not. Stop taking book shit that have not happend in the show, and tell it as a show fact just because you wish it should be so.

Yes, he had. This thread is about the TV show and the book. If you don't like that we, literate people, discuss the pages, don't participate in the conversation.

Thread name: [TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

Hah. I've been terrible with directing my posts at the wrong people. Apologies on that.

No harm done

He had purpose. He was there for the audience to see the horrors of what some wildlings can unleash upon a plain civilian population

That was pretty clear without Olly's tragic story, imo.

[Wilian]

That was pretty clear without Olly's tragic story, imo.

We had only seen it in words. TV show is a visual media and it was the first (and so far the only time) we actually had seen wildlings go rampant on actual civilian population that they had no other motive to kill than to just kill because that's what they do, confirming why they are the menace they are believed to be and Olly was the mediator of that narrative to the audience.

[Sooba]

You're mixing up two very different situations: Helping Rob and going back to Winterfell. He was talked out of fighting alongside Rob, but he had already made up his mind about taking back Winterfell. He had even asked anyone willing, to join him in his fight. That was how he initially broke his oath and why he was stabbed by his brothers. He never broke an oath in his time beyond the wall.

It seems to me that you as well are mixing something up. He was not stabbed for his anger / intentions about Winterfell. He was stabbed due to the prejudice of the brothers who hated the wildlings. While you may make some argument (and you have) as to Jon's behavior regarding Winterfell, you can't really attribute his death to it.

He died because he knew the true spirit of his oath and who he was truly protecting the realm from. The mutineers were incapable of seeing beyond their own hatred to view the big picture as to why Jon's actions regarding letting the wildlings through was necessary.

[Wyattbw09]

we actually had seen wildlings go rampant on actual civilian population that they had no other motive to kill than to just kill because that's what they do, confirming why they are the menace they are believed to be

Take out the word Wildlings and put in the words Iron Born, and the sentence retains the exact same meaning, yet the Iron Born are part of normal and polite society within the Seven Kingdoms.

I think it is fairly clear the Wildlings are as diverse politically and socially as the Seven Kingdoms. As was pointed out many times. The ONLY thing that makes the Wildlings different from Seven Kingdoms is that the Wildlings were born on the wrong side of a wall.

[Wilian]

It seems to me that you as well are mixing something up. He was not stabbed for his anger / intentions about Winterfell. He was stabbed due to the prejudice of the brothers who hated the wildlings. While you may make some argument (and you have) as to Jon's behavior regarding Winterfell, you can't really attribute his death to it.

He died because he knew the true spirit of his oath and who he was truly protecting the realm from. The mutineers were incapable of seeing beyond their own hatred to view the big picture as to why Jon's actions regarding letting the wildlings through was necessary.

In the books it was quite clearly painted that the stabbings happen because Jon wanted some Bolton blood extracted from Winterfell. There was lot of disgruntling but that was the straw.

[Sooba]

But there is no way to explain not only leaving the post, but trying to use the NW to fight in a civil war, even if it was a just war. He was going to break the oath, and that's what the NW couldn't forgive.

you're going to have to post full quotes and context to convince me that this was their actual intent (and not just some pretext). It's very clear, even in the books, as to why they wanted Jon dead.

[Wilian]

Take out the word Wildlings and put in the words Iron Born, and the sentence retains the exact same meaning, yet the Iron Born are part of normal and polite society within the Seven Kingdoms.

I think it is fairly clear the Wildlings are as diverse politically and socially as the Seven Kingdoms. As was pointed out many times. The ONLY thing that makes the Wildlings different from Seven Kingdoms is that the Wildlings were born on the wrong side of a wall.

...I am not sure what you are trying to get at here. Because that has zero relevance to the point I was making.

[Sooba]

In the books it was quite clearly painted that the stabbings happen because Jon wanted some Bolton blood extracted from Winterfell. There was lot of disgruntling but that was the straw.

Once again, pretext. They wanted Jon dead long before that particular event. You are all confusing a proximal event with the actual causative factor.

[Deleted]

In the books Jon was stabbed because he was breaking his oath to get involved in the wars of the realm.

In the show Jon was stabbed because his brothers believed that the Wildlings weren't covered under the "Realms of Men" comment in the Nights Watch oath.

Really not sure what the argument is about.

[Wilian]

Once again, pretext. They wanted Jon dead long before that particular event. You are all confusing a proximal event with the actual causative factor.

Or you are mis-emphasising. Of course they were disgruntled and hateful over what had happened but there was no indication of actual betrayal until Jon started going against the vows and seriously considering using NW to mess with the politics of Seven Kingdoms. Henche the straw and camel and things.

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In the books Jon was stabbed because he was breaking his oath to get involved in the wars of the realm.

In the show Jon was stabbed because his brothers believed that the Wildlings weren't covered under the "Realms of Men" comment in the Nights Watch oath.

Really not sure what the argument is about.

Sooba thinks it's the wildlings in the books too and tries to make it into argument. Naturally they were additive to the overall matter, but not the catalyst nor the reason.

[Sooba]

I agree. That scene and that whole situation were handled very well. Each of them had pretty good reasons to hate Jon Snow. And Jon Snow had pretty good reasons to help the Wildlings. I already respected Thorne since the Battle of Castle Black (even though I did not like him). Despite his dickish behaviour with Snow, he was an honorable man who took his oath seriously. It's hard, when you are in a millenary organisation, to admit that change his necessary. Also, he saw several of his brothers killed by the Wildlings. Thorne's death is a loss for the Night Watch who needs leaders of his caliber.

As for Olly, he was also perfectly justified to feel betrayed by Jon, who not only let Wildlings south of the Wall, but also gave them the Gift, the very land where he was living with his parents before they were brutally murdered by the Wildlings. That's why I never embarked on the Hate Olly Train.

After the execution, I felt no satisfaction like I did when Jon cut Janos Slynt's head. It was just, but sad and tragic.

I agree with all of this.

I just find it odd that some folks feel the need to try and make Jon out to be unworthy in order to feel the same level of empathy with Thorne.

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Or you are mis-emphasising. Of course they were disgruntled and hateful over what had happened but there was no indication of actual betrayal until Jon started going against the vows and seriously considering using NW to mess with the politics of Seven Kingdoms. Henche the straw and camel and things.

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Sooba thinks it's the wildlings in the books too and tries to make it into argument. Naturally they were additive to the overall matter, but not the catalyst nor the reason.

You're crazy if you think there wasn't going to be a backstabbing even without that event. This was very obviously planned for some time, not some spur of the moment thing. Which then indicates it was previous actions that had them so upset. Particularly so for Olly.

[Deleted]

It seems to me that you as well are mixing something up. He was not stabbed for his anger / intentions about Winterfell. He was stabbed due to the prejudice of the brothers who hated the wildlings. While you may make some argument (and you have) as to Jon's behavior regarding Winterfell, you can't really attribute his death to it.

He died because he knew the true spirit of his oath and who he was truly protecting the realm from. The mutineers were incapable of seeing beyond their own hatred to view the big picture as to why Jon's actions regarding letting the wildlings through was necessary.

No. He was stabbed because he wanted to march to Winterfell after having read the "pink letter". This becomes very clear from the pages in A Dance with Dragons.

This (very important) scene, is left out of the show, which suggests he was stabbed for other reasons there. That's probably the only reason they invented the character Olly, who stabbed him in the heart.

[Wilian]

You're crazy if you think there wasn't going to be a backstabbing even without that event. This was very obviously planned for some time, not some spur of the moment thing. Which then indicates it was previous actions that had them so upset. Particularly so for Olly.

I'm not sure what you're on about since there was no Olly in the books and afaik even the characater he's loosely based on didn't partake in stabbing. I think you're mixing the two in your head.

[Jotaux]

In the books Jon was stabbed because he was breaking his oath to get involved in the wars of the realm.

In the show Jon was stabbed because his brothers believed that the Wildlings weren't covered under the "Realms of Men" comment in the Nights Watch oath.

Really not sure what the argument is about.

I guess for some people its hard to separate the books from the show in their mind.

[Wilian]

No. He was stabbed because he wanted to march to Winterfell and that's very clear from the pages in Dance of Dragons.

This (very important) scene, is left out of the show, which suggests he was stabbed for other reasons.

Because he was stabbed for other reasons in the TV show, they diverted on that one.

[Sooba]

Oh look, it's Shaggydog's head. Guess that rules out the GNC.

Yeaaa, i bet Rickon/Osha are the bodies we see flayed/burning on the battlefield in the season 6 trailer.

Standard caveats apply. Might be different in books. Might be a fakeout by the Umbers (wrong wolf head etc.)

But yes, if it's similar progression and not subterfuge, not looking good.