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  1. #861
    Field Marshal tein's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    Why can't it be adjusted in tuning to be competitive on its own?
    Well, may be because the wow mechanics works in 2 variants - burst damage and sustained damage, and we have 3 columns of talents. There is no room for 3rd.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    Using SotF was perfectly fine in HM and BRF, only T18 made ToL stronger since it favored spamming rejuvs (Phylactry mostly).
    In russian resto druid community, which I belong to, it wasn't really popular build in that period of time. For me personally, as I mentioned, Sotf was killed along with smart healing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    but if it was ToL that it favors, you would be equally unhappy.
    I was only unhappy when they took away my mushrooms and WG without cast time. But tiers that made me use ToL didn't make me unhappy, just bored may be, cos it's too much ToL for some period of playing this game.
    Last edited by tein; 2016-05-11 at 03:28 PM.

  2. #862
    Quote Originally Posted by tein View Post
    That is the problem: I don't see it in that way, so why your opinion is better than mine? I believe in fact that this tier bonus is the only chance to play Sotf confidently again since ToT and I don't want this opportunity gone. Tell me honestly: if there was no tier bonus at all - would you take Sotf over ToL and Cultivation? ToL provides burst while Cultivation provides sustained healing, so where is the place here for Sotf?

    Right, right. But your feedbacks did not work while there was alpha, and now it's beta already. And I really don't think that "there is no choice here" is a proper feedback, usually it is called "whine", sorry. This thread is called "Resto Druid Legion Talents" so I'am also sorry if I wrongly decided that it is a proper place to discuss legion builds for future.
    Why my opinion is better than yours? Because the arguements against your opinion is objectively better, not only my arguements, but the ones by everyone else aswell.
    Would I ever take sotf over the other talents?
    As for ToL, definitely I really dont like ToL outside of the situations where it calls for a heavy throughput cd every 1.5 minutes, over cultivation perhaps not so much, but when the damage pattern calls for it, yes I would, see Ursoc pretty much heavy raid damage coming out very often, while I believe cultivation is a bit too strong atm, but it might be because I am heavily invested towards mastery.
    Eitherway I believe this is a tuning issue rather than a gameplay issue. (as for strengths I believe cultivation too strong, ToL okay, sotf a bit weak)

    The feedback on the alpha wasn't very continous because everyone agreed that it was a bad idea, but with no more exposure to the 4p it wasnt discussed as most people decided to discuss other things which we actually can test.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by tein View Post
    In russian resto druid community, which I belong to, it wasn't really popular build in that period of time. For me personally, as I mentioned, Sotf was killed along with smart healing.
    WG is a smart heal though.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by tein View Post
    Well, may be because the wow mechanics works in 2 variants - burst damage and sustained damage, and we have 3 columns of talents. There is no room for 3rd.
    Because you refuse to see the difference between the damage patterns, does not mean they don't exist.

  3. #863
    Quote Originally Posted by theburned View Post
    WG is a smart heal though.
    It isn't in WoD.

    Source: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/131...eplay-3-7-2014
    "Smart heals will now randomly pick any injured target within range instead of always picking the most injured target. Priority will still be given to players over pets, of course."
    Well, I see the point in your words. The argument about 30s cd is not really strong because of Prosperity
    I have no idea what you mean by that. It's still 30 sec cd with Prosperity. You literally gain 1 additional SM over the course of the fight, if you use SM efficiently on cooldown as a SotF buff tool. So for 6 minute fight you'd be able to cast 13 SMs instead of 12, not exactly a very big difference.
    Well, not to wear tier set is a choice too. I believe I can remeber a few raid tiers when some other healing classes didn't have benefit from set and prefer things with nice stats. By the way, in perspective there is still a choice - if we will look at all addon and not only on one tier.
    And that would be fine, if all tiers were roughly tuned to provide reasonable throughput. As it stands now, you have all specs doing roughly balanced healing and then some specs get dogshit setbonuses, while others get godlike setbonuses. Case in point: this tier Holy Priests, Resto Druids, Monks and Shamans. Holy Priests were absolutely fine and did competitive healing with all other throughput specs until you put our insane set bonuses and their useless ones in the picture. Result: no Holy Priests in sight.

    Our problem (well, mine problem, won't talk for everybody) with this current set bonus is that it is very clunky and benefits only one talent in one tier. I don't think it's a good design by any means.
    Using SotF was perfectly fine in HM and BRF, only T18 made ToL stronger since it favored spamming rejuvs (Phylactry mostly).
    I'm pretty sure it was in general a subpar talent even in HM and BRF on majority of the fights. All the logs with ToL showed more throughput. Fights still had burst damage phases and SotF can't really compete with ToL there.
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  4. #864
    Quote Originally Posted by Torty View Post
    It isn't in WoD.

    I have no idea what you mean by that. It's still 30 sec cd with Prosperity. You literally gain 1 additional SM over the course of the fight, if you use SM efficiently on cooldown as a SotF buff tool. So for 6 minute fight you'd be able to cast 13 SMs instead of 12, not exactly a very big difference.

    And that would be fine, if all tiers were roughly tuned to provide reasonable throughput. As it stands now, you have all specs doing roughly balanced healing and then some specs get dogshit setbonuses, while others get godlike setbonuses. Case in point: this tier Holy Priests, Resto Druids, Monks and Shamans. Holy Priests were absolutely fine and did competitive healing with all other throughput specs until you put our insane set bonuses and their useless ones in the picture. Result: no Holy Priests in sight.

    Our problem (well, mine problem, won't talk for everybody) with this current set bonus is that it is very clunky and benefits only one talent in one tier. I don't think it's a good design by any means.

    I'm pretty sure it was in general a subpar talent even in HM and BRF on majority of the fights. All the logs with ToL showed more throughput. Fights still had burst damage phases and SotF can't really compete with ToL there.
    This is a legion discussion thread though so I expect the spell mechanics for legion to be very relevant.

    Agreed on prosperity, or atleast to the extent that it doesnt give reduce the cooldown below 30 seconds, as towards getting more usage out of it, you will spend more time having the spell on cooldown, unless you play "perfectly" and in most cases playing "perfectly" is not the optimal spell usage, which is one of the 2 main arguements towards the talent.

    I expect that you are talking about previous setbonus, considering our current one has yet to have any math towards how good it is.
    The major issue is definitely how it only affects prosperity and SotF, and that its a very bad design for various reasons.

    it was considered slightly subpar, but still playstyle differences could mostly alter this more than mathematical differences, which was okay.
    Last edited by theburned; 2016-05-11 at 04:48 PM.

  5. #865
    Field Marshal tein's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theburned View Post
    Because you refuse to see the difference between the damage patterns, does not mean they don't exist.
    I'll be glad to hear explanation to this (it's always nice to open the mind) if you're willing of course. I mean, what are those types of patterns and the difference - is there some classification?

    Quote Originally Posted by Torty View Post
    I have no idea what you mean by that. It's still 30 sec cd with Prosperity. You literally gain 1 additional SM over the course of the fight, if you use SM efficiently on cooldown as a SotF buff tool.
    Wait, did I misunderstand the meaning of Prosperity?.. I thougt it's 30 sec cd, but 2 charges - so, technically it's less: you use SM, then WG - 10 sec cd on WG, after it you use the second charge of SM and WG again. And here by the time we can use WG in the third time the charge on SM resets. So considering global cd we have nearly 15 sec on SM. Isn't that right?

    P.S. I understand that from mathematical point of view we have not completely synchronizing SM with 2 charges and WG, but players ain't machines, so in terms of everyday life it's not really so problematic.
    Last edited by tein; 2016-05-11 at 05:55 PM.

  6. #866
    Wait, did I misunderstand the meaning of Prosperity?.. I thougt it's 30 sec cd, but 2 charges - so, technically it's less: you use SM, then WG - 10 sec cd on WG, after it you use the second charge of SM and WG again. And here by the time we can use WG in the third time the charge on SM resets. So considering global cd we have nearly 15 sec on SM. Isn't that right?
    What? That makes no sense. You gain 1 charge every 30 seconds, so you gain as many SM casts in the same time frame as without this talent. The only difference is 1 bonus charge you have on the pull compared to not having a talent.
    P.S. I understand that from mathimatical point of view we have not completely synchronizing SM with 2 charges and WG, but players ain't machines, so in terms of everyday life it's not really so problematic.
    Yeah, but if you want to play SotF, you have to play like a machine and SM either straight as the CD is off or within 1-2 seconds. Otherwise why the fuck are you playing this talent? It's like speccing into ToL and using it every 5 mins. If the damage pattern doesn't support these two, spec Cultivation (well, at the moment you should spec Cultivation regardless, but in the ideal world with proper tuning, this would be the thought process).
    Last edited by Torty; 2016-05-11 at 06:06 PM.
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  7. #867
    Quote Originally Posted by tein View Post
    Wait, did I misunderstand the meaning of Prosperity?.. I thougt it's 30 sec cd, but 2 charges - so, technically it's less: you use SM, then WG - 10 sec cd on WG, after it you use the second charge of SM and WG again. And here by the time we can use WG in the third time the charge on SM resets. So considering global cd we have nearly 15 sec on SM. Isn't that right?

    P.S. I understand that from mathimatical point of view we have not completely synchronizing SM with 2 charges and WG, but players ain't machines, so in terms of everyday life it's not really so problematic.
    Prosperity allowing 2 charges does not change the cd from 30 secs. In order to charge up to 2 charges (from zero) you'd have to wait 60 secs with no SM. Prosperity allows flexibility of WHEN you use SM, but it does not increase how many SM you can use, other than 1 extra since you start at a full 2 charges.

    Once you get get to 2 charges you can do: SM, WG, 8.5 secs, SM,WG - but now you still have 19-20 secs until your first charge of SM is back - the 3rd charge of SM will NOT be back up in time for the 3rd WG.

  8. #868
    Field Marshal tein's Avatar
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    You've ruined my perfect world Thanks for explanations. So then it's really not good - everything: Prosperity, 4 pieces and all my life XD. Dreams should stay dreams, I see that now. Although I'll still be interested to hear about damage patterns from theburned.

  9. #869
    Quote Originally Posted by tein View Post
    You've ruined my perfect world Thanks for explanations. So then it's really not good - everything: Prosperity, 4 pieces and all my life XD. Dreams should stay dreams, I see that now. Although I'll still be interested to hear about damage patterns from theburned.
    Currently in a raid, so expect to wait another 2 hours, will come though.

  10. #870
    To be fair, Posperity would allow more than one extra use in a realistic fight. Because you can have one always on cd and not waste "recharge time" becasue you wait a few seconds for dmg to be happening. And of course more flexibility.
    But that wont mean that many extra uses either.
    The set-bonus gets also a lot stronger because you dont waste "recharge time", if you use every charge constantly.

    But at this point i dont expect anything to really chance with Resto Druid. The spec seems to be in a relativly good spot, while a lot of other specs seem to be very clunky and "bad". But just a guess on my part.

  11. #871
    Quote Originally Posted by tein View Post
    I'll be glad to hear explanation to this (it's always nice to open the mind) if you're willing of course. I mean, what are those types of patterns and the difference - is there some classification?
    First you have to take into consideration that time is a very important factor in how to classify the different damage patterns as a result of that frequency, duration and magnitude all play a huge part in differences in damage patterns.
    Now the 2 ones you mentioned are very generalized, burst and sustained, burst would be something that has high damage in a short time frame, while sustained would be medium damage, but over a longer time span. Now you can generalize it to those 2 by splitting up the different factors in half, and call everything on one side of the line for burst and everything else sustained, but it doesnt really paint a decent picture.
    And also does not take into account a 4th factor which is a major part of the talent row, how many people does the damage affect.

    But now as this was mainly a discussion about the 3 different talents. With ToL your preferred damage patterns would be the ones where there is heavy incoming damage over a 20-40 second window, with roughly 3 or 1,5 min frequency (due to tranq pretty much covering one, and ToL the other.), or in particular enrage phases which are a lot more common.
    SotF though is most effective when there is medium-high damage incoming every 30 seconds (prosperity would help you cover those 20 and 40 second intervals a lot better and more efficient, which is essentially what the talent does.) And is especially good in situations where you get a very big aoe hit (say 80% of raid hp) then you get hit by an aftershock like ability (lets say 40-50%) 5-10 seconds afterwards.
    Now Cultivation pretty much covers any situation where the damage pattern doesnt line up particularly well with the 2 others.

    And also when you take the amount of people being hit into play, you see that ToL's effect gets amplified by more people being damaged, 8+ for optimal effect, SotF, 6 people, and cultivation being all around good from 1-20 depending on how many rejvus you are able to keep up. (not saying you should or need 20 rejuvs)

    Also I am sure you expected some kind of damage pattern in the same meaning like the generalizations, but thing is that you can set up 4 scales/lines w/e you want to call it, ranging from low to heavy damage, long to short duration, low to high frequency and few to many targets. Burst and sustained will take damage, and duration into account, and yes if you remove the 2 others you can generalize it down to these 2 damage types, so you can call the other damage patterns subgroups of this. But due to boss abilities having different frequency and amount of targets hit, it becomes very important to take them into account aswell.

    Even our most basic ability toolkit usage comes down to amounts of people hit, aswell as sustain vs burst, not really affected too much by frequency because the cooldowns are all fairly short (wg 3 sec downtime, swiftmend arguably, but its been moved more towards "oh shit single target button.")
    Last edited by theburned; 2016-05-11 at 10:27 PM.

  12. #872
    Field Marshal tein's Avatar
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    Thanks for your answer. It was interesting to read. You made your point about SotF, but back to our discussion: alright, there is some room for this talant, but it still seems to me that not much - it's too situational considering Legion changes for talents, even in your explanation. The honorable place of Force of Nature now belongs to SotF. As I think of it, we are very lucky: they never made tier bonus, busting Treants.

    Thanks all for enlightenment, I'll be keeping abreast of this thread for further information and ideas.

  13. #873
    Quote Originally Posted by tein View Post
    Thanks for your answer. It was interesting to read. You made your point about SotF, but back to our discussion: alright, there is some room for this talant, but it still seems to me that not much - it's too situational considering Legion changes for talents, even in your explanation. The honorable place of Force of Nature now belongs to SotF. As I think of it, we are very lucky: they never made tier bonus, busting Treants.

    Thanks all for enlightenment, I'll be keeping abreast of this thread for further information and ideas.
    I believe sotf suffers a lot from cultivation being a jack of all trades, which is too good at it, 60% isnt really a high threshold, either you will hit this point, or you arent taking significant damage for anything to matter.

    Reducing its threshold would also be a big miss on its talent design, reducing its healing leaves it to be more about adding a mastery stack, and I dont believe Blizzard wants to add mastery coefficients either. Which leads me towards wanting a nerf on its duration, now ofc you could just buff WG aswell to make both the other talents better, which also seems like they tried to do a bit with 20% increase to initial WG heal (artifact trait.), but its not really one thing that is factored into sotf, it helps a tiny tiny bit to ToL.

  14. #874
    I'm not entirely sure that reducing the duration of Cultivation will make a significant amount of difference to it's power. If the target stays at low enough health, it will just continue to be refreshed regardless of the duration. A shorter duration would only impact the throughput significantly in damage patterns which are extremely bursty. On most damage patterns where targets are low enough to trigger Cultivation, there is probably a sustained period where they stay that low. Plus, if it is heavily bursty damage patterns were are looking to counter, wouldn't SoTF and/or Incarnation fit those better than Cultivation anyway?

    I have a feeling that raid testing numbers are inflating the value of Cultivation relative to other talents. HoT based healing and stuff like the Shaman mastery have always looked a lot more amazing in raid tests than they actually end up on live, because you're testing with an ilvl that is probably lower than anything but top 20 world guilds will have when they start progressing on the boss, because boss damage tuning is all over the place, and because the raid is taking a lot more damage due to not having solid strats formulated. When you think of how something like Cultivation would play out in HFC or even BRF, I have to think it would be a pretty weak talent, even during progression ilvls. Yes, Legion's healing should be different and slower, etc, but they've said this 3 or 4 times before, and it has looked different in beta testing vs how it ends up on live multiple times before, so I am skeptical. I don't think Cultivation will be anywhere near as good on live, so I think it's probably a good thing that it looks over tuned in raid testing. If it was on par with Incarnation in raid testing, I would expect it to be mostly unusable by live.

  15. #875
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiberria View Post
    I'm not entirely sure that reducing the duration of Cultivation will make a significant amount of difference to it's power. If the target stays at low enough health, it will just continue to be refreshed regardless of the duration. A shorter duration would only impact the throughput significantly in damage patterns which are extremely bursty.
    I am suggesting this to keep the power of cultivation relevant, while not making it flexible enough to replace SotF in 80-90% of the cases.

    On most damage patterns where targets are low enough to trigger Cultivation, there is probably a sustained period where they stay that low.
    Yes, and this is the trait that cultivation should play on, if you take heavy amounts of damage, and keep staying low and need throughput over time cultivation should be your go to choice, right?

    Plus, if it is heavily bursty damage patterns were are looking to counter, wouldn't SoTF and/or Incarnation fit those better than Cultivation anyway?
    Ideally yes, but I believe we are leaning further towards a point where cultivation has enough flexibility to cover those situations while not exactly to the same extent, but almost as good, but with less drawbacks due to cooldowns, it becomes a safer choice in most cases.

  16. #876
    Is this thread also serving as the Rdruid Legion discussion thread? I see all other specs have a thread named that except Rdruid o.o

  17. #877
    Deleted
    So I have been testing a little bit of resto druid on the beta realm.

    I was thoroughly underwhelmed by the feral affinity talent. I understand that Balance synergizes better with Resto, but I never really liked Moonkins and at the end of the day it's a row of 3 talents and there should be a choice to actually take any of them.
    I wanted to use it mainly for leveling. For end game, dungeons and raids and whatever I'd still take boomkin, obv, but for leveling I felt more comfortable as a cat.

    But the Feral Affinity is just bad right now. You get exactly 3 "rotational" abilities and 1 AoE ability (but you won't really be AoEing as a resto feral affinity cat while leveling). 2 of the rotational abilities are finishers, so you only have 1 combo point builder. And that one is sloooow. Costs tons of energy, so you basically hit it twice and then go for a smoke break, as you literally got nothing else to do in the mean time.

    It takes so long to build 5 combo points, that if you used the dot finisher, by the time you'll have 5 combo points again the dot has run out.

    Now the mob killing speed is not completely horrendous but the gameplay/interactivity could not be more stale, imho.
    Anyone else got any experiences with this? Did I do something horribly wrong? Right now I feel like Feral Affinity should give another combo point builder and have severely reduced energy costs/higher energy regen. Obviously the damage will have to be balanced around the increased frequency, but I don't see anyone ever taking this talent with it's current lack of interactivity.


    Thoughts?

  18. #878
    Quote Originally Posted by throwaway-o View Post
    So I have been testing a little bit of resto druid on the beta realm.

    I was thoroughly underwhelmed by the feral affinity talent. I understand that Balance synergizes better with Resto, but I never really liked Moonkins and at the end of the day it's a row of 3 talents and there should be a choice to actually take any of them.
    I wanted to use it mainly for leveling. For end game, dungeons and raids and whatever I'd still take boomkin, obv, but for leveling I felt more comfortable as a cat.

    But the Feral Affinity is just bad right now. You get exactly 3 "rotational" abilities and 1 AoE ability (but you won't really be AoEing as a resto feral affinity cat while leveling). 2 of the rotational abilities are finishers, so you only have 1 combo point builder. And that one is sloooow. Costs tons of energy, so you basically hit it twice and then go for a smoke break, as you literally got nothing else to do in the mean time.

    It takes so long to build 5 combo points, that if you used the dot finisher, by the time you'll have 5 combo points again the dot has run out.

    Now the mob killing speed is not completely horrendous but the gameplay/interactivity could not be more stale, imho.
    Anyone else got any experiences with this? Did I do something horribly wrong? Right now I feel like Feral Affinity should give another combo point builder and have severely reduced energy costs/higher energy regen. Obviously the damage will have to be balanced around the increased frequency, but I don't see anyone ever taking this talent with it's current lack of interactivity.


    Thoughts?
    Feral has always been like that to be frank. Without the clearcasting procs feral as a main spec has a ridiculous slow rotation, where you quite literally wait for 2-3 seconds without doing anything.
    That issue kinda gets blown up in the feral affinity. Where you don't get the clearcasting that speeds things up (on feral main spec with MoC talent the rotation is quite fast). You don't get the double CP on crit. You don't get the benefit of multiple strong DoTs to tick whilst you wait for energy.

    Ferals rely a lot on their passives (Mastery, OoC, Primal Fury) and talents to make the spec work. Since the affinity lacks most of that; it is practically dead for anything but having the passive, or for maybe doing lower level content.
    I don't think there is anything to change that. Having an extra builder (which could only be Rake really) doesn't add anything as it doesn't address the slow energy generation and high ability cost.
    Last edited by Nythiz; 2016-05-19 at 04:18 PM.

  19. #879
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Nythiz View Post
    I don't think there is anything to change that.
    That's pretty hefty pessimism right here. Between lowering the energy cost of the abilities, adding filler abilities or giving them ways to increase energy regeneration (clear casting, tiger's fury, straight up regen buff,...) there are tons of things Blizzard can do to make the affinity worthwhile. And I really hope they will, because having a useless talent in a row always feels super awful.

  20. #880
    New build changes

    - Cultivation nerfed by 25%
    - The datamining suggests that mastery is capped at 3 stacks. However, I tested it on the beta server, and it is definitely continuing to scale healing to 4, 5 and 6 stacks, so it's either a datamining error, or not yet implemented yet.

    The Cultivation nerf was probably fine, but I still suspect raid testing makes that type of talent look better than it is under live raiding situations. If they really go through with capping mastery at 3, I think it is going to greatly devalue Germination/Cultivation/Spring Blossoms - or at least the value of taking all 3 talents. You will probably want 1-2 of them to have 2+ mastery stacks on most targets, but taking all 3 would likely be overkill in most scenarios due to diminishing returns from the mastery gain. I suspect Cultivation would be the first of those 3 talents that we drop, because it is more limited than Germination/Spring Blossoms, and because the value of getting a strong cooldown like Incarnation likely beats the other options on the Germination/Spring Blossoms talent rows.

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