Preach Ranks Legion Tanks. (Tanking in Legion is Bad?)

[judgementofantonidas]

Why not give more damage to the group for healers to handle (Random spike ST abilities, huge AoE nukes, ect) and let tanks continue having fun? I never understood this desire to return to the dark ages of tanking where the only stat was stamina and the only thing that mattered was your ability to hold threat.

Tanking should be more than being a DPS class that can take damage. The abilities should matter and matter a lot when it comes to smoothing out incoming spike damage as that's what is "fun" about being a tank. Damage for healers to heal can come from other sources than just tank busters and mild raid AoE.

right. they have ret paladins doing things for the raid, holy paladins doing things for the raid. prot paladin is like "hey go stand there so we can heal you". I completely fail to understand why three specs from the same class need to be so dissimilar. why would a prot paladin not have holy power and abilities to use it but the other specs would? am I less holy because I am getting smacked around?

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By your logic you are falling straight into the tanks are OP category because they can sustein themselves to much after healer or dps deaths along with doing damage. in good gear this is how we end up with Blood DK's soloing current raid content.

Its not really feasable

I am ok with DK, the original hero class, being easy. There should be at least one class with training wheels.

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40m video? Come on.
I feel like I traded some of my self-survivability for utility.
Also, ripping on prot pally tanks after it was already stated prot had buffs incoming already makes this video inaccurate.

"don't worry you have buffs coming" riiiiiiight.

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I think the opposite is true, with these changes it sounds like you will have to really understand your AM and cds and time them well, not just keep them up through a fight like now. In legion it sounds like there will be long cds on defense meaning timing will be crucial, it sounds like you wont be able to keep up AM continuously almost like now. When people say tanking is easy its because right now you really dont get trucked except with boss special abilities that you have cds for. In legion it sounds like you will be getting hit a lot harder and AM wont be up all the time to negate those hits, and cds will be long in coming for special abilities plus tanks with self healing made it really easy on the healers. WoD was very easy tanking, legion does in fact sound like a return of the oh shit days. But as I said im fine with that, other people probably wont be so much.

at least right now, simple dungeon trash trucks tanks.

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The problem is, if they they make it so tanks literally take no damage, then A)Fights must have unavoidable aoe damage all the time, otherwise a fight is literally dull for the healers. B) Most of this damage happens to melee dps...

the big problem atm, is that the Active mitigation isn't as good as it should be to go along with this change.

what? maybe design fights so that all players in the raid have to do something intelligent that has absolutely nothing with the normal operation of their toon? no no. lets nerf tanks into the ground.

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They said long before alpha started that this is what they wanted. They don't want tanks to be 100% self reliant.

Tanks are not 100% self reliant. Not even close. Maybe some exemplary players can do things that go beyond the design of the tank classes. Good for them. But the average tank player is still in some part reliant on healers in raids.

5 man content of course is irrelevant. tanks should be able to solo that by the end of an expac.

[Wootmonkey]

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"don't worry you have buffs coming" riiiiiiight.

Palys got tweaked in the last build (which was after this video was made).

Most of the feedbacks sounds like it was an improvement.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...3645399?page=1

[judgementofantonidas]

I dont understand why they think self sufficient tanks and active mitigation being strong is a bad thing. Tanks are already rare enough, turning them back into boring damage sponges isnt going to make more people tank.

As someone who plays 4 tanks, soon to be 5, what am I supposed to look forward to?

yeah. why don't we go back to stupid stam stacking. that would be fun right?

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tanks shouldnt be limp dick though

bring back dmg taken = dmg done and you have tanks doing as much as dps, even being able to top charts, but still unable to solo things because they have not enough mitigation

a tank should be a dps that also has to do another job, tank,imo

I agree with this. But dps would whine that we are stepping into their lane. A large number of the dps population get easily offended when they start to feel that they are only a tool to kill things that it would take us too long to kill ourselves.

[Wootmonkey]

5 man content of course is irrelevant. tanks should be able to solo that by the end of an expac.

Good to know that I don't have to take anything else you say seriously.

[judgementofantonidas]

you dont want tanks to have control of their dmg, you dont want tanks to have control of their health

why have tanks as a class at all if all they are is an afk punching bag?

yep. lets just have melee dps get whacked. ima play my mage.

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He's saying Tanks shouldn't ever outpace a Dpsers damage unless said dpser is really really bad. The idea they deal damage is fine because aggro and stuff.

why not? I am simply a dps. I hit back. I get pissed off when I get hit, and that makes me hit harder. What exactly is the issue that some dps players have with tanks being able to contribute equally? in addition to doing damage I offer control, stability, and survive ability to the group. These are extra responsibilities not benefits to me. a tank should be MORE not less just because it offends people who do not want to take on the extra responsibilities.

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You still have control.

And the idea that tanks should do more damage when they take damage was terrible. While main tanking you do amazing damage, but if you're OT, you do shit damage. That isn't fun for the OT.

then he should grow up, put his big boy pants on and be the MT.

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Because, as a tank, your role has nothing to do with dealing damage. You are there to keep mobs focused on you and not the healers, while generating enough threat to outpace the healers and DPS while using your cooldowns properly to reduce or mitigate large damage spikes.

If tanks can dps as well as DPSers, then what is the purpose of DPS?

DPS are damage dealers that don't for whatever reason, be it fear, laziness, or whatever step up to the challenge and extra responsibilities of tanking. If I am not hurting the mobs do you think me calling them bad names should be enough to convince them they should not go eat the soft targets?

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Yeah you're pretty much clueless when it comes to designing classes/roles properly.

Tanks should not be self sufficient, it's not their job to be able to heal themselves or deal lots of damage.

Everyone role needs to be dependent on the other roles in order to do group content effectively, otherwise there's no point in using the holy trinity system. Tanks always been a pretty basic and boring role. Their job is to stay alive as long as possible and keep the fight under control so their DPS can kill the mobs. They don't deal damage, and they can't heal themselves, but they're goddamn good at taking hits and keeping things under control.

DPS deal a lot of damage, but cannot take many hits, and cannot heal themselves.

Healers provide healing, but cannot deal a lot of damage, and cannot take hits.

As soon as you start "crossing the streams", you get design abominations that end up angering the playerbase because they're too good, or completely awful.

I doubt that many are suggesting that tanks should become totally self sufficient. What I have seen in Alpha is that they have gone way beyond creating a mutual dependency.

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Doing damage and continuing to do damage.

no. doing damage and whining if tanks have fun.

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So you would be in favor of making threat a meaningful part of tanking again?

sorry to burst your bubble but there are still dps that can find ways to get themselves killed by pulling in extra mobs or doing too much spike damage.

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Make threat matter again, and you'll have plenty to keep you busy.

boring. or if you cannot understand that. fucking boring.

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dafk

my point is that CURRENTLY

dps are dps/utility

while tanks are just tanks and healers are just healers

theres no reason that tanks couldnt be tank/dps or tank/heal or tank/utility

because as long as its balanced for such, everyone could have two roles and it would be much more fair and fun for everyone than just giving tanks and healers only 1 role while DPS have 2

or you could just make everyones 2nd role utility, but thats not what is currently happening or is planned to happen

yeah. because you know that it is completely unreasonable to think that I might throw a heal or a bubble on a raid member from time to time when I find that I am not nearly dead all the time because I am completely reliant on healers. good healers are hard to find. making them the spot light will only make that worse.

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Threat never was that interesting to me. AM is the superior system for tanking.

And it will never be a thing again is my guess. Because it was the most annoying for DPS, not really the tank.

the problem is there are many more dps than tanks. so they, and un rightfully so, can bitch and push changes on us based on their discontent.

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When threat comes back as a means to tanking I will start main tanking again.

As a tank my job was to keep the mobs off of everybody else, which was what made the role enjoyable. Then it just became a "I CAN KEEP MYSELF ALIVE! LOOK!" and "Taunt pls."

Having threat and having to keep that threat is what made the role fun.

no. it became "hey get better dps I am beating you" which is reasonable, because any dps class should not be beaten by the tank single target.

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I think most of the tanks like the mop/wod model and I don't see why it should change because non-tanks don't think it fits tbh.
Since threat isn't coming back for several reasons they stated, they are effectively removing part of our self sustain without adding anything else to fill the gap just to accomodate the less skilled so they can tank and blame someone else (the healer) when they die.

this statemens sums up a lot of truth in the situation.

tanks are being nerfed because

a) dps don't like to look bad around good tanks.
b) dps don't like to look bad around good tanks.

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I agree--I mean it may be a culture-shock for the rofl-aoe-pull the room crowd, but what you salvage is better then what you leave behind in this case. I just hope that despite the new refocus on roles, that they can make it so the specs are still fun to play rotation-wise.

they removes nearly half the things I maintain or use during a fight. not my idea of fun to play rotation wise.

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No.
No role should be able to bring a heroic boss from 5% to kill.

exemplary tanks and dps have done it before for years.

[Tinykong]

I have enjoyed the dichotomy between dealing exceptional damage, or taking exceptionally low damage as a tank.

The game play that is most interesting (to me, anyway) is being able to gear your character to be very tanky, or more squishy while dealing more damage. I also like that good play is rewarded with high damage output and low damage intake.

Looks like that is largely gone in Legion. Tanks just have to worry about smoothing their damage intake, and popping a 5 minute CD when a boss does a particular thing. Boring.

[judgementofantonidas]

Well threat is returning in mythic plus dungeons and no a terrible tank will not be saved by a good healer in raids...

Tanks seem to be reverting back to being tanks rather then hybrids. You goal is to make you hp bar go down as slowly as possible just like it was in the past.

You are not longer healing yourself from massive amount of dmg nor rivaling a dpers output.

Now I can see this making ques longer since low end content is going to be even more dull for tanks but well it wasn't a roller coaster to start with.

the best raid guilds are literally carried by exemplary healers.

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Why? Who cares? Still an alpha, and the beta tunings not even out yet. Irrelevant video.

beta says hello tomorrow.

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And literally no one believes that.

I know right? "I got alpha because I so gooood".

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I said "But making them completely dependent on healers is just a bad idea." So to counter your horrible point.

Most DPS have self-heals/Defensive CD's to protect themselves if The Tank or Healer momentarily stuffs up.
Most Healers Have Defensive CD's and can keep themselves alive through Self healing if The Tank stuffs up.
Making it that Tanks who are MEANT to be the best at mitigation/avoiding damage should not be able to maintain themselves for a period without the constant application of heals is just bad design.

right. i have one heal that only heals me for a percentage of my life lost on a cooldown that is much too long. meanwhile I am getting beat on and can do absolutely zero in between cooldowns.

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This is stupid, Tanks never in the history of WoW ever came near to outdmging DPS in the late game, the closest they came to hitting really hard and almost as hard as DPS was with Vegence, that suffered severe diminishing returns once you were seriously geared.

Let's look at WoD Tanking for Archimonde Mythic, the average DPS on him is around 120k, with the top damage being 170k from a Sub Rogue. A Protection Paladin sporting everything he could possibly equip to increase his damage and by gimmicking the fight as much as he possibly could, where only 64% of his damage was on Archimonde, the rest on AoE Enemies, where 30% of his damage was Savior's Boon, did only 90k DPS, with the average DPS of Tanks revolving around 40k. That means DPS hit 3x more than the Tanks. That has always been the case, even in Pandaria.

Tanks have really bad scalling, always had, they may have similar damage at the start, but after that it's bye bye damage. The whole gimmick of 4 tanks 1 healer for Mythic+ will be outdone fairly soon once the real gear starts pouring in.

bad dps get offended when tanks are higher than them on the dps chart.

[Xisa]

Tanks being largely self-sufficient was stupid to begin with.

I'm glad they're killing this moronic change.

[judgementofantonidas]

Tanks job shouldn't be to DPS so taking those toys away is a good thing imo and self healing should really be removed as much as possible. Tanks should focus on mitigating damage for themselves and the raid and healers do the healing.

just like dps should not pull things the tank will no longer be able to handle right? because you know you are never going to get into an LFG group where the dps refuses to play their chosen role.

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Mostly due to a trinket.

besides, tanks have always been able to do good aoe dps.

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Soloing 5% of bosses as tanks is just bad design (or whatever 2 classes). I don't really need to explain anything more.

sure. because it does not effect you, but surely offends you. what boss? 5% of what? did that 5% merely consist of being able to barely stay alive long enough for dots to kill the boss? or were these tanks just that good at their class?

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Palys got tweaked in the last build (which was after this video was made).

Most of the feedbacks sounds like it was an improvement.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...3645399?page=1

I have played alpha up until monday. Did they roll out a mega buff right before shutting down alpha? if so I missed it.

[oplawlz]

Tanks being largely self-sufficient was stupid to begin with.

I'm glad they're killing this moronic change.

Yup. Unfortunately in the case of pallies and wars they overdid it to the point that they were nearly unplayable with how little you had to do. Hopefully the build they roll out with beta tomorrow will see some improvements there. On the bright side my bear is the most fun he's ever been ^.^

[Snakeseye0]

Same people in this thread saying that tanks are good atm are the same people that are going to be saying, "Why is Dungeon queue so long".

[Mazeari]

I remember my friend back in Icc. Warrior tank, he just went full aggro and then halfway through went afk, at council I think. As a healer I'm absoulety fine not having to heal tanks in raids.

[Marrilaife]

He's correct. Paladins in TBC and even LK were played this way. In LK you changed back to a regular tanking weapon. Defense cap, block cap, consecration and AFK.

You forgot press holy shield on cooldown to have 100% uptime. If someone calls that "active mitigation" though...

[SoulSoBreezy]

"don't worry you have buffs coming" riiiiiiight.

Well from the last two builds, my overall damage did in fact triple. Maybe I'm exaggerating that bit, but the buff was enough that the legendary legs removed the additional damage from avenger shield.
I also feel a lot more in control of my health and am with the shift from avenger shield to consecrate to buff myself.

[Adramelch]

sure. because it does not effect you, but surely offends you. what boss? 5% of what? did that 5% merely consist of being able to barely stay alive long enough for dots to kill the boss? or were these tanks just that good at their class?

I don't remember dude, you quoted a post of mine from like 2 weeks ago. I was quoting some other guy who said about some boss in SoO that they finished off the last 5% between them (the 2 tanks). My point is that unless it's a velhari type boss (where you do a fuckton of damage by default), 2 people (regardless of role) shouldn't be able to kill off a boss at 5% (unless they overgear it by a fuckton).

Also you should stop your "offends you" bullshit. What does that even mean? It's just bad design, that is all.

[Deleted]

I don't remember dude, you quoted a post of mine from like 2 weeks ago. I was quoting some other guy who said about some boss in SoO that they finished off the last 5% between them (the 2 tanks). My point is that unless it's a velhari type boss (where you do a fuckton of damage by default), 2 people (regardless of role) shouldn't be able to kill off a boss at 5% (unless they overgear it by a fuckton).

Also you should stop your "offends you" bullshit. What does that even mean? It's just bad design, that is all.

I think killing a boss from 5% to 0% is not bad design of classes but more to do with boss mechanics. You said yourself "unless it's a velhari type boss". Some bosses do very little in there last 5% and some either mini-enrage or become so much off a clusterfuck that you can't do any damage.
I remember a rogue we had killing Nerfarion (cata) on what was then called normal mode from about 4% but the boss did very little so it was doable.
To be honest if 2 people did Velhari from 5%-0% in appropriate gear then I would be impressed and so would most people. They would have to use their tools to counteract the bosses which is the whole point of raiding. I probably wouldn't call for taking away those abilities.
You could say that tanks shouldn't have abilities to counteract mechanics in the last 5% solo (bearing in mind that most bosses have mechanics that would kill you easily) but then I feel as if you would have to do this to every class, remove abilities until no one can solo it. That's just dull, rogues like their moment in the light.
So you have most bosses that can't be killed but every now and then and rarely, someone gets to be the hero who wipes off the last couple of % of a boss who can be killed. While the raid team cheers and shouts encouragement, they are always great moments that you remember for a long time after. Which is great design in my opinion.

[Adramelch]

.
So you have most bosses that can't be killed but every now and then and rarely, someone gets to be the hero who wipes off the last couple of % of a boss who can be killed. While the raid team cheers and shouts encouragement, they are always great moments that you remember for a long time after. Which is great design in my opinion.

5% is a lot though. 5% on say Zakuun mythic is around 13 million, so, no I don't think someone should be able to solo (or duo) that. What you're talking there is that rogue who evades, preps and evades again and solos the boss, but then we're talking about that last 0.5% of the bosses. Those times are exciting and should exist, but there's a difference between 0.5 and 5. Still the whole discussion is based on someone mentioning "killing 5% off a boss solo" which might not even be true. My original point was that if this was true, it's bad design because 5% is A LOT, on proper gear levels.

[Ultramad]

I don't remember dude, you quoted a post of mine from like 2 weeks ago. I was quoting some other guy who said about some boss in SoO that they finished off the last 5% between them (the 2 tanks). My point is that unless it's a velhari type boss (where you do a fuckton of damage by default), 2 people (regardless of role) shouldn't be able to kill off a boss at 5% (unless they overgear it by a fuckton).

Also you should stop your "offends you" bullshit. What does that even mean? It's just bad design, that is all.

Hey that was me! My blood DK co-tank and myself(guardian druid at the time) were the last remaining in a Sha of Fear Heroic(now called mythic) kill. We were often some of the top ranked tanks in SoO at the time and we did just barely live, with myself dying at ~1% and him barely finishing the boss off. It was quite glorious and luckily we had almost all our personal cooldowns up at the time in order to survive some.

It was also not our first kill, someone decided to fuck up the maze, then others couldn't do the prisons and it snowballed. Luckily we didn't get a prison in the 5%-0%, and luckily I was running some serious bear deeps back then. Oh well. There were many occasions during our farm on that fight where we would wipe at 1%, this was just an aberration.

I'm glad it's still apparently some people's arguments on bad tank design though. If anything Legion tank design is the backwards step.

And just to clarify the scenario, yes there were dots up obviously before the raid got wrecked. Yes we had all our personals up after the raid died(we barely had to use them back then on farm).

[8bithamster]

He's correct. Paladins in TBC and even LK were played this way. In LK you changed back to a regular tanking weapon. Defense cap, block cap, consecration and AFK.

Oh, I know that. But the illusion it has about not needing to time stuff with healers is just adorable. To be fair, I miss the spellpower weapon days, it gave us an unique edge instead of "look just use warrior weapons ok?"

Gotta love these people though "ehmagerd TBC and vanilla were best evar!" and then in this topic "ehmagerd! TBC and vanilla were worst for tanking"

Makes me want to sell popcorn oO

[Toore]

Hey that was me! My blood DK co-tank and myself(guardian druid at the time) were the last remaining in a Sha of Fear Heroic(now called mythic) kill. We were often some of the top ranked tanks in SoO at the time and we did just barely live, with myself dying at ~1% and him barely finishing the boss off. It was quite glorious and luckily we had almost all our personal cooldowns up at the time in order to survive some.

It was also not our first kill, someone decided to fuck up the maze, then others couldn't do the prisons and it snowballed. Luckily we didn't get a prison in the 5%-0%, and luckily I was running some serious bear deeps back then. Oh well. There were many occasions during our farm on that fight where we would wipe at 1%, this was just an aberration.

I'm glad it's still apparently some people's arguments on bad tank design though. If anything Legion tank design is the backwards step.

And just to clarify the scenario, yes there were dots up obviously before the raid got wrecked. Yes we had all our personals up after the raid died(we barely had to use them back then on farm).

Sha of Pride if SoO, cant believe you killed last 5% of Sha of Fear (Terrace of Endless Spring) heroic with 2 tanks when it was current - debuff that strips you from all your gear and the adds that kill (or was it just fear dont remember) when they get to you would be too much