Founder of startup hears sexual harrassment complaint, what would you do?

[Steve French]

You think it's okay to refer to someone you hardly know as a "mom i'd like to fuck"? In a professional environment, that doesn't fly. I don't care if it's pop culture shit or what. Even the people I know who I would classify as MILFs I would never actually say it to them (besides my wife). Talk about making someone uncomfortable.

Maybe if you pulled your head out of your ass you would see the about 6-7 times i said "ITS NOT APPROPRIATE TO CALL HER A MILF". Want to keep beating this dead horse bud?

[Underverse]

You're pretty dense if you hear "I would be okay with getting together outside of work for just friends" and think "so you're saying there's a chance".

Unless the woman explicitly asks him to stop, there is no harassment here. She could just want to be friends, and still enjoy his attention. Dropping hints is not sufficient; if she wanted him to stop, all she had to do was tell him to stop.

It's really not that difficult or complicated.

[watatsuya]

And I'm arguing that the boss shouldn't be making that accusation. Even better - the woman should be clear about her intentions, instead of dropping hints.



Yeah, it's not professional. But again, it's not sexual harassment either. And it's not a 'no'. In fact it's a conditional yes.

Not up to you to decide that. It's up to the bossman.

[Karnak]

And I'm arguing that the boss shouldn't be making that accusation. Even better - the woman should be clear about her intentions, instead of dropping hints.



Yeah, it's not professional. But again, it's not sexual harassment either. And it's not a 'no'. In fact it's a conditional yes.

In no way is it a conditional yes that leads immediately to date comments, much less MILF comments.

It was a conditional yes, and he blatantly ignored the condition. She didn't drop a hint, she outright told him.

[Underverse]

Not up to you to decide that. It's up to the bossman.

Terrible argument. Bosses should decide what is or isn't sexual harassment? Yeah, rethink that one.

[Steve French]

You're pretty dense if you hear "I would be okay with getting together outside of work for just friends" and think "so you're saying there's a chance".

You're clearly the dense one, what else would a woman think if a guy asks her out? You think he just wants to be super best buds with her and talk about their exciting work day and then after they can paint each others nails!?

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In no way is it a conditional yes that leads immediately to date comments, much less MILF comments.

It was a conditional yes, and he blatantly ignored the condition. She didn't drop a hint, she outright told him.

Oh karnak, making shit up again I see? Carry on then champ.

[Felya]

She did. When she said she was only interested in hanging out as a friend, in a work context.

You can't say "but maybe she'll change her mind, so I can ignore whatever she actually said". That's not how anything works.

I think it's worse than that, because her not knowing him well enouph, does not actually question her interest... It explains why she is not interested...

My gf actually does similar. She knows I hate celery, but still gets a kick out of putting celery in food that I don't notice. Kind of like a gotcha... But, me liking celery that doesn't taste like celery, actually is in line with me not liking celery. It's the logical conclusion, instead of just blind bias against celery... No joke by the way... Happens every few months for over a decade...

[Endus]

Unless the woman explicitly asks him to stop, there is no harassment here.

That's not how sexual harassment laws work, no. You might wish they worked that way, but that's not how they're implemented in the real world.

[Arganis]

I don't understand why so many men think it's good idea to make sexual advances to woman after they've already been clearly rejected. This person was given a 'not interested' reply and he proceeded to act like she said 'oh yes please, can I have a dick pic!!', what an idiot. If somebody is that stupid they can't be doing a good job, fire them for that alone.

[Underverse]

In no way is it a conditional yes that leads immediately to date comments, much less MILF comments.

It was a conditional yes, and he blatantly ignored the condition.

He didn't ignore that condition, because it doesn't appear that they actually hung out together. Texting 'milf' has nothing to do with the condition layed out.

I'm not saying this guy was right to do what he did, but the women certainly didn't make it clear to him that she wanted him to stop. At absolute most, she just kept rejecting his individual requests. This is not the same thing as telling someone to cease pursuit.

[watatsuya]

Unless the woman explicitly asks him to stop, there is no harassment here. She could just want to be friends, and still enjoy his attention. Dropping hints is not sufficient; if she wanted him to stop, all she had to do was tell him to stop.

It's really not that difficult or complicated.

Because the dude is dense. That in itself might be cause to fire him. It's at least a very large red flag.

It's also a very convenient excuse. In the end, companies should not make it more difficult for the harassed to deal with and report sexual harassment. That just allows it to go on. They don't write guidebooks for people on how to approach being harassed. They write guidebooks on what behavior is acceptable for the harassers to know what they shouldn't be doing. Because the onus is on the harassers, not the harassed.

[Underverse]

That's not how sexual harassment laws work, no. You might wish they worked that way, but that's not how they're implemented in the real world.

Someone can be sued for sexual harassment without knowing the intent of the other individual? That's pretty damn subjective. If that is the case, then you're right. I would disagree with the law here.

[Endus]

I don't understand why so many men think it's good idea to make sexual advances to woman after they've already been rejected. This person was given a 'not interested' reply and he proceeded to be act like she said 'can I have a dick pick', what an idiot. If somebody is that stupid they can't be doing a good job, fire them for that alone.

There's two kinds of guys that do this, IME. One is the guys that just don't give a shit what the woman wants; these guys are assholes. The guy in this case appears to be one. The other is guys who get "friendzoned" and let their crush stew, and confuse their internal obsession with a degree of investment; giving up would mean giving up that investment, which they aren't willing to do, because it might "pay off" any day now. It won't, because they're manipulative dickheads, but they don't see it that way.

[Underverse]

Because the dude is dense. That in itself might be cause to fire him. It's at least a very large red flag.

It's also a very convenient excuse. In the end, companies should not make it more difficult for the harassed to deal with and report sexual harassment. That just allows it to go on. They don't write guidebooks for people on how to approach being harassed. They write guidebooks on what behavior is acceptable for the harassers to know what they shouldn't be doing. Because the onus is on the harassers, not the harassed.

Again, I'm not saying that he can't be fired for other reasons. I just don't think this should be called sexual harassment if the woman did not ask the man to stop.

[Endus]

Someone can be sued for sexual harassment without knowing the intent of the other individual? That's pretty damn subjective. If that is the case, then you're right. I would disagree with the law here.

Their intent is expressed by their action. Sexual harassment is not a crime where the intent is "I want to make that person uncomfortable". The intent is to pursue a romantic/physical relationship with that person, or at least a sexual act with that person.

Unwanted actions that pursue that intent are sexual harassment. That's literally what the offense is. Saying "but I just thought she was hot and wanted to get with her, not make her uncomfortable" isn't a defense, it's a confirmation of motive and intent.

[Underverse]

Their intent is expressed by their action. Sexual harassment is not a crime where the intent is "I want to make that person uncomfortable". The intent is to pursue a romantic/physical relationship with that person, or at least a sexual act with that person.

Unwanted actions that pursue that intent are sexual harassment. That's literally what the offense is. Saying "but I just thought she was hot and wanted to get with her, not make her uncomfortable" isn't a defense, it's a confirmation of motive and intent.

By intent, I was referring to the 'unwanted actions' part. Not intent on the part of the accused.

And along that vein, I'm arguing that a simple 'let's hang out as friends' is not sufficient to make it clear that the man's actions were unwanted.

Again, this would all be very simple if she simply said to him, 'please stop pursuing me'. Problem solved. Or, if it continues, employee gone.

[Steve French]

I don't understand why so many men think it's good idea to make sexual advances to woman after they've already been clearly rejected. This person was given a 'not interested' reply and he proceeded to act like she said 'oh yes please, can I have a dick pic!!', what an idiot. If somebody is that stupid they can't be doing a good job, fire them for that alone.

What was the part he got rejected at? The part where she told him she would be interested in hanging out with him as work friends? Or the part where he invited her to a private non-work conversation and she accepted? At the very least shes sending mixed signals.

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Because the dude is dense. That in itself might be cause to fire him. It's at least a very large red flag.

It's also a very convenient excuse. In the end, companies should not make it more difficult for the harassed to deal with and report sexual harassment. That just allows it to go on. They don't write guidebooks for people on how to approach being harassed. They write guidebooks on what behavior is acceptable for the harassers to know what they shouldn't be doing. Because the onus is on the harassers, not the harassed.

He's dense because he dared to ask a woman who he works with out on a date? Or was it because he said the terrible terrible word *GASP* milf?

[Underverse]

To use an analogy, this sounds a lot like a kid whining to his parents about something that another kid does.

Kid: "Jeremy keeps throwing a ball at me!"
Parent: "Well, did you ask him to stop?"
Kid: "...no. But he keeps throwing it!"
Parent: "Why don't you ask Jeremy stop throwing the ball at you."

And in this case, Jeremy got expelled.

[Steve French]

There's two kinds of guys that do this, IME. One is the guys that just don't give a shit what the woman wants; these guys are assholes. The guy in this case appears to be one. The other is guys who get "friendzoned" and let their crush stew, and confuse their internal obsession with a degree of investment; giving up would mean giving up that investment, which they aren't willing to do, because it might "pay off" any day now. It won't, because they're manipulative dickheads, but they don't see it that way.

Yes yes how very astute of you, you've quite clearly nailed the only "Kinds of guys that do this"(ask out a woman) with your very open minded assessment. I like how you took all the facts from the OP then just threw them all out the window and made up your own story about a terrible monster that ruthlessly harassed this poor innocent helpless female. It's just too bad you weren't there to save her from this terrible fate.

But really lets blow this situation more out of proportion, the guy asked a woman out on a date. The absolute worst thing he did was refer to her a milf, not the smartest thing to do but not illegal or harassment. She should have acted like an adult, and moved on after it was clear the situation was ended.

[Unionoob]

To use an analogy, this sounds a lot like a kid whining to his parents about something that another kid does.

Kid: "Jeremy keeps throwing a ball at me!"
Parent: "Well, did you ask him to stop?"
Kid: "...no. But he keeps throwing it!"
Parent: "Why don't you ask Jeremy stop throwing the ball at you."

And in this case, Jeremy got expelled.

If Jeremy just arrived and starts throwing balls at people just for his own enjoyment then expel. If fully grown man can't understand that's not right then it's his own problem.