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  1. #621
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masark View Post
    1. No, the problem is that there aren't 6 million people willing to do those jobs at the pay they're offering. "Looking for someone with 20 years experience with a product that came out last year. Offering 20k/year. BTW, we'll want 30+ hours of unpaid overtime each week.

    2. You mean they want wages and work conditions comparable to what the previous generation or two got?

    3. So you whine about people not taking white collar jobs, then jump to them not being interested in jobs where the conditions, pay, and benefits are worse?

    4. No, they want the wages to go up in general. That's what a minimum wage hike does, provided that corporations get told to put on their big boy pants, pay what "the market" then demands, and aren't allowed to offshore/import H1-Bs, etc.
    Good luck with all that whole wages and work conditions comparable to what the previous generation or two got. That is not going to happen because those generations were not competing in a global environment that we now have today. Once these free trade packs came into existence the jobs and wages started to go with them. The days where the American worker could get massively paid are over. When you have to compete with a country that pays cent or a few dollars and hour or day and can make product far cheaper and faster with more low waged workers. The US is then forced into doing the same, this is what it is to be in a global economy.

    Maybe you ought to go read up about the turn of the 20th century when we were in another global trade environment before WWI. It is seem that we are again repeating history that we seem to never really learn from, especially from the previous experience that did not end all that well. This one will most like end in war, because this country is not going to be able to sustain itself. The multi-international companies are literally squeezing the smaller companies out of existence with all this low wage, low skilled workforce.

  2. #622
    Quote Originally Posted by Apexis View Post
    Good luck with all that whole wages and work conditions comparable to what the previous generation or two got. That is not going to happen because those generations were not competing in a global environment that we now have today. Once these free trade packs came into existence the jobs and wages started to go with them. The days where the American worker could get massively paid are over. When you have to compete with a country that pays cent or a few dollars and hour or day and can make product far cheaper and faster with more low waged workers. The US is then forced into doing the same, this is what it is to be in a global economy.

    Maybe you ought to go read up about the turn of the 20th century when we were in another global trade environment before WWI. It is seem that we are again repeating history that we seem to never really learn from, especially from the previous experience that did not end all that well. This one will most like end in war, because this country is not going to be able to sustain itself. The multi-international companies are literally squeezing the smaller companies out of existence with all this low wage, low skilled workforce.
    So if it just isn't feasible for improved work conditions and wages because of the global economy, how is it that most of the rest of the developed world is doing EXACTLY that: providing all workers living wages and good benefits? Why is it that American workers have to settle for worse jobs due to globalism, whereas workers in Western Europe, Canada, Australia, etc. don't have to?

  3. #623
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...vernment-help/



    Conservatives will no doubt rewrite history and say these people don't deserve to be paid a living wage. This is what happens when the wealthy go unchecked.
    http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/gl...ending-supply/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gestopft View Post
    So if it just isn't feasible for improved work conditions and wages because of the global economy, how is it that most of the rest of the developed world is doing EXACTLY that: providing all workers living wages and good benefits? Why is it that American workers have to settle for worse jobs due to globalism, whereas workers in Western Europe, Canada, Australia, etc. don't have to?
    The cost of everything is cheaper so they are able to live on their wage. Poor people exist everywhere.

  4. #624
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    I'm asking for consumers and employees to be informed, and put their money where their mouths are. If that's too difficult for them, then I'm not apt to feel much sympathy.
    Informed about what? Company intern things that you get to know only by chance? People tend to make life more easy and comfortable, you´re not one of those, you´re the exact opposite it seems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by supertony51 View Post
    Get some roommates and live frugal?
    That is not helping with anything. Seriously, that´s making everything worse. Less consum, less demand, less output, less pay,... you see where this is going?
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  5. #625
    i dont know what to say other than this generation is very entitled. thinking a job at mcdonalds should support you as a grown adult is laughable.

  6. #626
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    The government is making you work? Or is that your stomach? If you expect me to feel sorry for you, because you are expected to provide for yourself, then you will be waiting a long time. How fucking lazy are you?
    Me? I'm on a middle-class income of just over £45,000 (around $65,000) at the moment, with a laughably small property portfolio. I provide for myself, my wife and my two girls.

    We're not talking about me, but I do note that you're getting desperate.

    There are two aspects here, neither of which I think you're capable of grasping:

    1) The government makes you work because you can't live without doing so. That means you take whatever job you're qualified to take given your education, and you try to make ends meet. In the United Kingdom, things like tax credits make up the difference when work doesn't pay quite enough due to low wages; but they, and other benefits, are being cut (or will in the very near future).

    2) People on benefit (typically Jobseeker's Allowance) have been made to work - in some cases, for companies that laid them off. "Workfare" isn't a new concept, but the British government had to retroactively attempt to change legislation because what the DWP were doing was illegal. Workers also have to put up with zero-hour contracts in the UK, where you don't know if you'll earn at all in some weeks.

    Now, clearly, this type of consideration is beyond those who rote-learn their economic opinions from the right-wing press. On the one hand they'll argue that if you're not being paid enough you should just find another job, but will then switch stance if a person isn't qualified for another job and say "that's all they're worth". When you try and pin them down into whether or not they think low wages and high-state spending is the solution to plugging the gap, they revert to suggesting everyone should just get a better job.

    I wonder where you'll go next?

    Quote Originally Posted by oxymoronic View Post
    i dont know what to say other than this generation is very entitled. thinking a job at mcdonalds should support you as a grown adult is laughable.
    Why shouldn't it?

    I'm serious.

    Why shouldn't it?

  7. #627
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    Good luck with all that whole wages and work conditions comparable to what the previous generation or two got. That is not going to happen because those generations were not competing in a global environment that we now have today.
    You just can't compete with low wages country though. Because wages are low in those country due to their very high demographic, a developed country can't compete against on that standpoint.

    China has a population of 1.3 billion people, USA has 320 millions or so (and I'm not even talking about india). How can you expect to be able to compete with those country on a sheer work cost basis ? Answer : it is not possible.

    i dont know what to say other than this generation is very entitled. thinking a job at mcdonalds should support you as a grown adult is laughable.
    Neoliberalism at its finest. Now people shouldn't even get paid for their work.
    Last edited by mmoc18e6a734ba; 2016-05-12 at 08:16 AM.

  8. #628
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    No matter how special you think you are, no employer owes you a living wage. We have a welfare system for a reason. If your labor isn't desirable enough, we give you a aid, such as food stamps.

  9. #629
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrimaryColor View Post
    No matter how special you think you are, no employer owes you a living wage. We have a welfare system for a reason. If your labor isn't desirable enough, we give you a aid, such as food stamps.
    Do you always support to subsidize companies with taxpayer money?
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  10. #630
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    Do you always support to subsidize companies with taxpayer money?
    Absolutely I support people getting basic welfare such as food stamps.

  11. #631
    Quote Originally Posted by Gestopft View Post
    So if it just isn't feasible for improved work conditions and wages because of the global economy, how is it that most of the rest of the developed world is doing EXACTLY that: providing all workers living wages and good benefits? Why is it that American workers have to settle for worse jobs due to globalism, whereas workers in Western Europe, Canada, Australia, etc. don't have to?
    but they aint doing that... all those countries are broke and dont even provide their own defense. they need america or they would be part of china or russia right now. finally people are seeing that (obama) and speaking out. i've been saying it for years.

    also conditions for work are WAY BETTER than they were 30 years ago. is this a joke?

  12. #632
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrimaryColor View Post
    Absolutely I support people getting basic welfare such as food stamps.
    So you think it´s a good thing that companies make a profit off of the welfare system? Do you always like to pay more than needed for things?

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    Quote Originally Posted by oxymoronic View Post
    but they aint doing that... all those countries are broke and dont even provide their own defense. they need america or they would be part of china or russia right now. finally people are seeing that (obama) and speaking out. i've been saying it for years.
    They are just as broke as the US is. Those countries provide their own defense, don´t think the US bases around the globe are to protect foreign nations first and US interests second, unless of course there´s a contract that states otherwise, but then the US probably is getting payed to do so.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  13. #633
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    Informed about what? Company intern things that you get to know only by chance? People tend to make life more easy and comfortable, you´re not one of those, you´re the exact opposite it seems.

    - - - Updated - - -



    That is not helping with anything. Seriously, that´s making everything worse. Less consum, less demand, less output, less pay,... you see where this is going?
    I'm fine with life being more comfortable and easy. However, I'm not going to legislate away someone else's freedoms to do it. That's an act of pure selfishness, which is what the major complaint is about corporatism. I'm not going to turn into the types of people I despise, are you willing to do that? If I want to legislate mmore comfort into my life, then I justify the actions of the corporatists when they do the same.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviemore View Post
    Me? I'm on a middle-class income of just over £45,000 (around $65,000) at the moment, with a laughably small property portfolio. I provide for myself, my wife and my two girls.

    We're not talking about me, but I do note that you're getting desperate.

    There are two aspects here, neither of which I think you're capable of grasping:

    1) The government makes you work because you can't live without doing so. That means you take whatever job you're qualified to take given your education, and you try to make ends meet. In the United Kingdom, things like tax credits make up the difference when work doesn't pay quite enough due to low wages; but they, and other benefits, are being cut (or will in the very near future).

    2) People on benefit (typically Jobseeker's Allowance) have been made to work - in some cases, for companies that laid them off. "Workfare" isn't a new concept, but the British government had to retroactively attempt to change legislation because what the DWP were doing was illegal. Workers also have to put up with zero-hour contracts in the UK, where you don't know if you'll earn at all in some weeks.

    Now, clearly, this type of consideration is beyond those who rote-learn their economic opinions from the right-wing press. On the one hand they'll argue that if you're not being paid enough you should just find another job, but will then switch stance if a person isn't qualified for another job and say "that's all they're worth". When you try and pin them down into whether or not they think low wages and high-state spending is the solution to plugging the gap, they revert to suggesting everyone should just get a better job.

    I wonder where you'll go next?



    Why shouldn't it?

    I'm serious.

    Why shouldn't it?
    You said the government forces people to work. You made the claim, and I wanted to see how you would back it up... you never did. You equate a personal choice to being forced. What you are complaining about, is that the government does not give you everything, and why the fuck should they? The government is not making you work, they are merely refusing to give you free money. That's like saying your parents are forcing you to get a job when they decide to stop paying for everything of yours when your 27 years old. At some point, people have to be responsible for their own behavior.

    You don't like the argument that people are worth what they decide to work for, but that's how economics works. Nobody is forcing them into that job, nobody. The people with less skills are worth less, once again, that is a basic fundamental of economics. They are less scarce, so their value is low based on the demand for their skills. Once again, this is not the fault of the government, and it's not the job of the government to fix it.

    How many people continue to look for jobs once they find one? This is an important question, because it goes to the heart of the problem, complacency. Their value can never increase, if they do not continue to try and "sell" themselves as a product. If they do not try to oimprove their own value, then a company has no incentive to pay them more.
    Last edited by Machismo; 2016-05-12 at 10:50 AM.

  14. #634
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    I'm fine with life being more comfortable and easy. However, I'm not going to legislate away someone else's freedoms to do it. That's an act of pure selfishness, which is what the major complaint is about corporatism. I'm not going to turn into the types of people I despise, are you willing to do that? If I want to legislate mmore comfort into my life, then I justify the actions of the corporatists when they do the same.
    I´m not legaslating away someone else´s freedom, what the fuck are you talking about?!

    Your post makes no sense at all. Actually tackling the selfishness that is corporatism is viewed as bad and like corporatism, so better not do it because we don´t want to be viewed to act like them even though when we don´t.

    Also with keeping in mind that this was your response to "Informed about what? Company intern things that you get to know only by chance?" leaves me wondering if you read everything from a post or just 2-3 words and imagine a probably suitable answer.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  15. #635
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    I´m not legaslating away someone else´s freedom, what the fuck are you talking about?!

    Your post makes no sense at all. Actually tackling the selfishness that is corporatism is viewed as bad and like corporatism, so better not do it because we don´t want to be viewed to act like them even though when we don´t.

    Also with keeping in mind that this was your response to "Informed about what? Company intern things that you get to know only by chance?" leaves me wondering if you read everything from a post or just 2-3 words and imagine a probably suitable answer.
    If you don't know what a company pays its employees, then don't shop there. Once again, the consumers hold all the power.

    Increasing minimum wages does restrict freedoms. It tells a business (and yes, a business owner is a person) how much they must be forced to pay an employee. In the case of California, it's going to push a lot of businesses into bankrupty or restructuring. Small businesses in poor parts of California will not be able to pay what the government wants them to pay. In some places, the minimum wage will be higher than the average wage is currently. That sounds nice on the face of things... until you get into the math of how it will actually be paid for.

    If you want to stop corporatism, then get rid of the corporatist laws that were put into place. Adding your own legislation on top of theirs makes you no different than them. In both cases, you are lobbying the government to get a favorable outcome by restricting the freedoms of the opposing side, or those whom you think are "guilty" of something, even if they are not.
    Last edited by Machismo; 2016-05-12 at 11:07 AM.

  16. #636
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Now you are trying to put words into my mouth. If you give people everything they need, then they have no incentive to excel. Besides, that stuff has to come from somewhere, are you going to provide it all? Nope, you want to take it from others.

    I think people should be responsible for their own actions. And yes, almost everyone who is poor is in that state because of their actions, or in the case of children, their parents' actions.
    Ahem...Cosplayers amvs game mods...Philosophy monks and ALOT more....

    Creativity will be cut loose people will work to better themselves and likely a new Era would come if we removed our current concept of money

  17. #637
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    If you don't know what a company pays its employees, then don't shop there. Once again, the consumers hold all the power.
    That´s private information, not public, you´re aware of that, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Increasing minimum wages does restrict freedoms. It tells a business (and yes, a business owner is a person) how much they must be forced to pay an employee. In the case of California, it's going to push a lot of businesses into bankrupty or restructuring. Small businesses in poor parts of California will not be able to pay what the government wants them to pay. In some places, the minimum wage will be higher than the average wage is currently. That sounds nice on the face of things... until you get into the math of how it will actually be paid for.
    No it´s not restricting freedoms, it´s evening out because the businesses are restricting freedoms of their employees by refusing to keep up with inflation and the other factors that define a livable wage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    If you want to stop corporatism, then get rid of the corporatist laws that were put into place. Adding your own legislation on top of theirs makes you no different than them. In both cases, you are lobbying the government to get a favorable outcome by restricting the freedoms of the opposing side, or those whom you think are "guilty" of something, even if they are not.
    What corporatist laws are empowering corporations to pay less than a livable wage?
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  18. #638
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrior View Post
    Ahem...Cosplayers amvs game mods...Philosophy monks and ALOT more....

    Creativity will be cut loose people will work to better themselves and likely a new Era would come if we removed our current concept of money
    You're joking, right?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    That´s private information, not public, you´re aware of that, right?



    No it´s not restricting freedoms, it´s evening out because the businesses are restricting freedoms of their employees by refusing to keep up with inflation and the other factors that define a livable wage.



    What corporatist laws are empowering corporations to pay less than a livable wage?
    Once again, if they don't release that information, don't shop there. COnsumers have the power, they just don't use it.

    Businesses are not restricting freedoms, because both aprties are agreeing on a price. Are you restricting a business' freedom if they sell you a car on sale? Of course not.

    Is a business obligated to pay a "living wage?" Nope, nor should they be. To force them to do so would be a restriction of their freedom. If the business does nto pay enough, refuse to buy from them, and refuse to work there.

  19. #639
    Quote Originally Posted by Apexis View Post
    Welcome to the global economy where small to medium businesses have to compete with countries that pay anywhere fro a few cent per hour to a couple dollars a day. Manufacturing in the last 30 years or so has been moving to countries that pay crap and allow larger companies to pump out mass quantities of shit product and force the small to medium size companies that make better quality of product to compete for much of the same market.

    21st century is about automation and using low skilled workers to max out as much profits as possible. Union put massive amounts of drag on companies and try to squeeze them as much as possible for less and less actual work in return. More and more states are going right to work in order to be able to compete on a global scale market place and we have low skilled people wanting to get $15 dollars per hour to flip a burger that the price would most certain have to go up to compete with other companies.

    Running a business with all the regulations and other BS to day in a global market place takes far to long these day to start really getting to where they start to show a ROI.

    As for the wealthy, those people have gotten much fatter under the current president in the last 8 years, than they did under the two previous combined, so the wealthy go unchecked no matter who is controlling the white house of the congress. Maybe you ought to actually wake up and look around more, because both political parties have been controlled by the money and power people forever. While the rest of us, including small to medium business try to figure out if we get to eat or who get to keep their job, or who should be promoted into another position, or can we hang on long enough, or do we finally have to close out doors and let everyone go.

    You are a typical Liberal OP, always blaming others, but its the very people that you help to support that do the same as the other people on the other side of isle. Today's republican and democrat parties are not all that dissimilar, they bothy enjoy blaming one another for the other not doing something and they both enjoy spend massive amounts of money that future generation will not be able to make enough money to pay it all back.

    These parties are so damn broken they both need to blown to hell and never allowed to resurface again. That won't happen as long as there are people like yourself the keep drinking their Kool Aid and carry their water of either side of the political divide.

    Oh, by the way it was just reported yesterday that there is some 6 million white collared jobs that are currently not filled in the US. The problem these business are running into is there are not enough skilled people to actually fill them. We got jobs, but people need to be actually need to want to work from the bottom up, like many used to do in this country. Today though, some think they should walk out of school and instantly make 60 to 100k for not knowing squat.

    People don't even want to get dirty today, there are boatloads of those jobs that pay well and don't require much level of skill, though they do require one to actually get dirty. Something that the current generations don't seem to want to do manual labor task, but they want to get paid $15 dollars an hour to flip a burger.
    People in depressed countries will work for way less, so we're perfectly ok for businesses to go there and exploit that. We don't even bat an eyelash. Its perfectly acceptable that a business add to the destruction of the US middle class and exploit desperate people in foreign lands to increase their margins by paying less for the same results. In fact, that's smart business. They'll take incentives and breaks from the government while using as many of the governments services as possible.

    However, if an individual wants to increase their personal margins by getting more for the same work, they are considered pieces of shit who are lazy and lack ethics, or if they cross the border then they're all of those things and criminals. If an individual takes breaks and incentives from the government while using their services as much as they can, they are blight on society.

    I got an idea.....if people just put ', Inc." after their name then maybe the conservatives would champion their cause.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  20. #640
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    You're joking, right?

    - - - Updated - - -



    Once again, if they don't release that information, don't shop there. COnsumers have the power, they just don't use it.

    Businesses are not restricting freedoms, because both aprties are agreeing on a price. Are you restricting a business' freedom if they sell you a car on sale? Of course not.

    Is a business obligated to pay a "living wage?" Nope, nor should they be. To force them to do so would be a restriction of their freedom. If the business does nto pay enough, refuse to buy from them, and refuse to work there.
    No many of them will put months of work into fun activities often creating new things. Also see kickstarters if money wasn't an issue imagine all the games or books that would be made

    Hardship does create innovation in some ways it also denies it in others.

    I believe living to grow abd play is the best route for humanity not living to work and be s borderline slave

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