[Beta] Havoc Discussion

[Orloth]

Havoc is the DPS Specialization of the new class: Demon Hunter. "A brooding master of warglaives and the destructive power of Fel magic."

The Alpha Thread can be found here.

Legion Havoc Demon Hunter Overview

Talent Calculator

PvP Talents

The Twinblades of the Deciever





Item Sets

Battlegear of the Shattered Abyss
Vestment of Second Sight

Legendaries

Achor, the Eternal Hunger
Anger of the Half-Giants
Cinidaria, the Symbiote
Loramus Thalipedes' Sacrifice
Mo'arg Bionic Stabilizers
Prydaz, Xavaric's Magnum Opus
Raddon's Cascading Eyes
Sephuz's Secret

[Soulfròst]

Woot! One step closer!

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

So it begins....

[Orloth]

Oy!!! I see y'all toeing the line there. Memes and 'First' posts aren't allowed. Don't make me get a bigger, meaner moderator (I know we have a few of those somewhere).

[Vanyali]

*scuffs at orloth's line*

maybe also the class set bonus? it'll be relevant first tier, anyway.

[Orloth]

*scuffs at orloth's line*

maybe also the class set bonus? it'll be relevant first tier, anyway.

I already have a link to Tier 19 there. Do you mean spelling out the bonuses? Or adding in the Class hall set: Battlegear of the Shattered Abyss

[Vanyali]

I already have a link to Tier 19 there. Do you mean spelling out the bonuses? Or adding in the Class hall set: Battlegear of the Shattered Abyss

yes, that set. I appear to have forgotten to type out a word.. >.>

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

WTB Beta key so I can stop asking Vanyali to test certain things out for my lowly self.

On a separate note, I look forward to continuing what was mostly constructive dialogue between testers and non testers alike from the previous thread. Many shenanigans will be had until the Demon Hunter becomes available to pre-orders and such <3

[Soulfròst]

WTB Beta key so I can stop asking Vanyali to test certain things out for my lowly self.

On a separate note, I look forward to continuing what was mostly constructive dialogue between testers and non testers alike from the previous thread. Many shenanigans will be had until the Demon Hunter becomes available to pre-orders and such <3

IDK about you but I'm looking forward to the Una off-spec.

[Factor]

After checking out wordups Havoc worksheet and seeing how large of a piece Chaos Strike/Annihilation make up of the overall dps (~64%) as well as looking at a lot of the logs Van and others have posted I'm a little concerned.

I know things still have to be completely tuned, but I don't know how the damage can really be redistributed. The current Tier 19 will only end up skewing the damage even more onto Chaos Strike. If that ends up being the theme going forward, Havoc will be the new Master Simple Frost DK. Havoc needs more rotational depth so that the damage sources end up a bit more even.

I also know that the current iteration is no longer the literal 1 - 2 spam that the first unfinished concepts were. However, the logs still show that usually around 70-75% of the buttons pressed are Demon's Bite and Chaos Strike/Annihilation. Can you currently choose talents than increase the complexity? Sure. Do I wish there was a place for Blade Dance and Felblade to be used together in the single target rotation? Ideally yes. I would love if Felblade was baseline with two charges with the same proc chance is currently has. The talent would then modify it in some other way. I would also love for First blood to alter some other aspect of Blade Dance and bake part of the current iteration into the baseline talent. Are these realistically going to happen? No. It seems that the devs pretty much consider the "rotation" complete.

I don't have Beta, I didn't have Alpha, but I am a Mythic raider and have done for years. I can see a bit of a lack of depth when its staring me in the face. I'm wanting so badly for this spec to be enjoyable. Visually it looks stunning, I'm just praying for the game play (from a raiding perspective) to catch up. IMO, and perhaps my lack of hands on means i'm way off base, but Havoc is missing something.

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

IDK about you but I'm looking forward to the Una off-spec.

But what would you do if Una became the main spec? :O


@Factor Before I get home and can contribute to the discussion you're drawing up here (a very appropriate one too going into the new thread), you're talking about adding *baseline* complexity, not complexity through talent choices, correct?

I seem to recall you and I discussing the simplicity of the baseline spec and being able to significantly alter the playstyle through talents as something that almost seems intended as a means to add depth to a class with no alternative DPS spec to switch to; so that people could add (or subtract even) their desired style of how they envision playing a Demon Hunter.

That aside, you're coming from a mythic raiding standpoint, where you're virtually forced to play what is considered the mathematically superior way to play. Which would mean my advice to make it as complex as you want kind of a moot point to make

[Mefistophelis]

WTB Beta key so I can stop asking Vanyali to test certain things out for my lowly self.

On a separate note, I look forward to continuing what was mostly constructive dialogue between testers and non testers alike from the previous thread. Many shenanigans will be had until the Demon Hunter becomes available to pre-orders and such <3

Agree with you on this. I would love to be in the Beta, test stuff, provide feedback. Also I'm happy that the Demon Hunter community on the previous thread was so nice and helpful. I know I've not been posting alot, but I see no point just posting for the sake of posting, especially since we got people like Wordup and Vanyali providing us with lots of info and videos.

[Raiju]

I know things still have to be completely tuned, but I don't know how the damage can really be redistributed. The current Tier 19 will only end up skewing the damage even more onto Chaos Strike. If that ends up being the theme going forward, Havoc will be the new Master Simple Frost DK. Havoc needs more rotational depth so that the damage sources end up a bit more even.

That's because DH is a 2 button class. It's only natural one of them takes over 50%!

/s

That being said, it seems more a case of lack of other options. Chaos strike isn't our top priority, but it is our top 'spammable'

[The Archmage]

That's because DH is a 2 button class. It's only natural one of them takes over 50%!

/s

That being said, it seems more a case of lack of other options. Chaos strike isn't our top priority, but it is our top 'spammable'

That will only increase with gear aswell, since it's our only spammable Chaos damaging ability. It doesn't bother me though, i like CS's "double tap" and its animation.

Now i just need Beta T_T

[Warstar]

That's because DH is a 2 button class. It's only natural one of them takes over 50%!

/s

That being said, it seems more a case of lack of other options. Chaos strike isn't our top priority, but it is our top 'spammable'

Just go away... it's easily a 6-8 rotational button class not counting longer CDs like FotI/Meta/Chaos Blades/Nemesis. Add in momentum and it's hands down the most active spec I've ever seen. Even if you go Demon Blades (which is the main reason people cry about this being an easy boring class) you have Chaos Strike, Fel Rush, Vengeful Retreat, Felblade, Throw Glaive and Eye Beam which if you count that's 6 rotational abilities...

Just because something is spamable doesn't mean it's bad. Look at a DHs logs sometime and their damaging attacks list is longer than anything else. It really is obscene. DHs have an odd mix of spamable abilities mixed with short CD abilities and because of the fury refund of CS with crits you'll never have the same rotation ever. On my rogue I can basically play the same buttons almost verbatim for the first minute of a fight every single encounter.

As it stands now especially with considering the Momentum game play DHs are a pretty highly engaging dynamic class that you can't just relax and go brain dead on the way other classes can.

[Raiju]

@Warstar

https://www.reddit.com/r/NoStupidQue..._meaning_of_s/
http://www.internetslang.com/_2FS-me...definition.asp

There is something to be said for outright lack of alternative to chaos strike spam throughout the talent tree, though. This is on top of chaos strike being part of our engine so to say. It's synergy is hard to beat and it certainly doesn't *NEED* that much synergy to continue being our spammable spender. If anything, alternate spenders like fel eruption should gain similar benefits

There's also a very real mathematical issue when it comes to demon blades. For those raiding and going for performance specs - it will either be best or not best. If it's not best, it won't be on guides. If it is, it will. This talent could define the spec based on tuning and you may be giving up more than a few % to play 'the fun way'

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

I think @Warstar missed the /s and hulked out at the sight of "2 button spec". I would've too if I hadn't seen that.

Poor Warstar, fellow veteran of the "2 buttons kek" war. I salute you sir.

- - - Updated - - -

Question: Would the Legendary ring giving Demon's Bite additional fury generation make Felblade sort of pointless to take or would it have a place with it's straight up damage increase?

[Sangomah]

I managed to test the ring for a grand total of 3 hours and its insane. If there is any legendary I want, its that one.

It is, by far, our best dps increase in terms of items. The Eye Beam Head Piece will win out on heavy aoe fights, assuming there is no icd on it, like, it can only proc once every 1 second, meaning we wont benefit from crits on several targets.

Regarding the Chaos Strike, its currently a bi effect of how slow we get our talents.

We need to get to level 102 before we get any form of impactful rotational talent (First blood or Felblade) as Fel Erutpion has such a long as cooldown.
AFter that we have to wait 4 levels to get Momentu, which is the only impactful "rotational" talent that we have.

I have said this multiple times, both here and on the Alpha forums during the testing. The problem is that the class is findamentally "broken" on the basic level, very similar to rogues in Vanilla the first year or so.

Chaos Strike is so insanly strong, you want to use every other ability to enhance it as much as you can. With Demonic, your goal is to get as many globals within the Demonic Window on CHaos strike. Add momentum into the mix and it is even stronger.

I like the playstyle, as it forces you to use other abilities to get strong Chaos Strikes, but looking at it from the outside, it really does look like its all about Fury generation to spam CHaos Strike, and as said, that is fundamentally "broken" because of earlier builds WAS a DB to use CS.

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@Warstar

I agree with the rotational thing, but it is not as "hard" as sub is on live imo

[chooi]

Reporting in, bois! Got lucky

That crash course is really great, wordup!

[Raiju]

Reporting in, bois! Got lucky

Were you up all night?