Legion classes seem to be in an unfinished state and this is concerning.

[RedGamer030]

Taking in general is going to be a catastrophe, but what else is new:

WoD: We're going to fix tank damage scaling, vengeance, and force those tanks to rely on healers again.

That is less of my concern then the actually rotation and spells available. Protection Paladin has no variance, press filler damage button and press one of your three defensives that all act pretty much the same (flat damage reduction), whereas Guardian Druid has a rotation that you interweave different abilities to keep up damage over time effects and buff active mitigation.

[Deleted]

The game changes. Evolves. Having 9001 buttons does not make a spec interesting, it makes it unnecessarily complicated and difficult to play

I don't think there ever was a build which used any more than a mere fifty, so perhaps ease up on the exaggeration as it in no way validates your argument. And as far as that argument goes; neither does a lack of quantity make for an interesting build per say.

You've obviously not played alpha, or watched a single class video. None of those classes have been "pruned to death", they have removed / relocated like 4-5 abilities (most being passives anyway, yawn) but they also added to each class with new talents and artifact traits.

Or that poster has a different opinion than you based on their alpha experience.

[Eleccybubb]

Hmmm something unfinished in Alpha/Beta. This is certainly news to me. How dare they make something not finished during their testing phase of a game :O. /s

[Deleted]

Hmmm something unfinished in Alpha/Beta. This is certainly news to me. How dare they make something not finished during their testing phase of a game :O. /s

I do not have the ability to play Legion alpha/beta, so my only reference comes from stream/youtube/what I have read, and some of it seems quite alarming. It's concerning because we are getting quite close to release and there is no longer time for a major overhaul of any of the specializations. Some abilities might be removed or added back in, along with some tuning, but the overall layout is 'complete'.

[Mafic]

Hmmm something unfinished in Alpha/Beta. This is certainly news to me. How dare they make something not finished during their testing phase of a game :O. /s

Release is Aug 30th...unless they can pull of a miracle...if they release this to the masses of casual players it will be tsunami of tears everywhere. The flying tears will blot out the sun.

[Deleted]

Hmmm something unfinished in Alpha/Beta. This is certainly news to me. How dare they make something not finished during their testing phase of a game :O. /s

The main problem with this is that we already have a release date and that it's rather unlikely that we'll see any gameplay changes in the last 2 months or so since they'll want to fine-tune numbers before they release the pre-patch. This means that although it's still called Alpha right now, we're actually already in a very late stage in the development cycle. Combine that with Blizzard devs saying that the gameplay feels fine and they want to start tuning now and it's not exaggerated at all to fear for classes feeling just as unfinished on release as they feel right now.

[Tharkkun]

That is less of my concern then the actually rotation and spells available. Protection Paladin has no variance, press filler damage button and press one of your three defensives that all act pretty much the same (flat damage reduction), whereas Guardian Druid has a rotation that you interweave different abilities to keep up damage over time effects and buff active mitigation.

Well then Paladin tanks will return to their former glory as the easiest class to play again.

[RedGamer030]

Well then Paladin tanks will return to their former glory as the easiest class to play again.

And possibly the strongest tank, too, since all the cooldowns are X, Y, or Z% damage reduction.

[Mafic]

You've obviously not played alpha, or watched a single class video. None of those classes have been "pruned to death", they have removed / relocated like 4-5 abilities (most being passives anyway, yawn) but they also added to each class with new talents and artifact traits.

Also, using Shaman's as an example they've added so much meat, just compare WoD Elemental to Legion Elemental there's just no contest.

I disagree. I think the vast majority have been pruned to death and the lack of utility is very telling.

[wing5wong]

It is not impossible to test. I don't give a shit about DPS, I care about how it feels to play, exactly as was intended for the alpha testing phase up until recently.

Yes, I am in the alpha - for several months now. Are you?

When did I say it was because of lack of buttons? Many classes have had the interesting complexity they had stripped (Fire) or had the gameplay changed and effectively ALL complexity stripped (BM). While most feel alright or even good, some are definitely lacking. Beyond the obvious (MM lacking a lot of animations, Feral having a very spammy flesh-tearing sound effect (same goes for Guardian), to name a few), there are some in really dire need of attention, and they're not getting it.

you misread my post, perhaps i should add some oxford commas.
It is impossible to test balanced gameplay
It is impossible to expect balanced gameplay

It is impossible to test or expect balanced gameplay...

I stream alpha lot, yes.

As you have said, most classes feel alright or good. That is a good position to be in going into a beta when a larger subset of players will be able to provide more feedback

Warriors
Rogue
Paladins
Warlocks
Monks
Priests
Druids
Hunters
Shamans
Death Knights

List the spells that were useful and added complexity to gameplay. Soothe? Hibernate?

Rogue is one of the least changed classes. Go read build notes. Do not spread misinformation.

The class doesnt have to be significantly changed, especially if gameplay is mostly as they feel it should be

I don't think there ever was a build which used any more than a mere fifty, so perhaps ease up on the exaggeration as it in no way validates your argument. And as far as that argument goes; neither does a lack of quantity make for an interesting build per say.

Im mostly talking to those that spout classes have been pruned to death here. I agree there is a happy medium between 3 buttons, and 50.
50 buttons is actually a lot required to play a game to a basic standard

[Kuntantee]

The class doesnt have to be significantly changed, especially if gameplay is mostly as they feel it should be

Assassination rogue doesn't feel like a master poisoner. An identification made by Blizzard. Can we please acknowledge the fact that this whole class fantasy and modernization/de-hybridization of specs attempt is highly underwhelming and reeks of incompetence?

[Fkiolaris]

List the spells that were useful and added complexity to gameplay. Soothe? Hibernate?

How can you main a druid (as I imagine you do from the avatar) and make such a question? I mean for real. What next, ask dps warriors if D-stance, intervene and spell reflect added anything to their gameplay? Perhaps I am thinking about these more from a pvp POV, but even in my casual level these (and many more) are massive changes to the gameplay of the classes/specs that were not needed at all (the changes), not least because the abilities were completely optional for playing your spec at an acceptable level as a new/less skilled player.

[wing5wong]

Assassination rogue doesn't feel like a master poisoner. An identification made by Blizzard. Can we please acknowledge the fact that this whole class fantasy and modernization/de-hybridization of specs attempt is highly underwhelming and reeks of incompetence?

I can accept that, but sometimes gameplay needs to trump fantasy.
Im not saying i play a rogue and dont disagree if people say its bad, but most classes should have reasonable gameplay at this point

How can you main a druid (as I imagine you do from the avatar) and make such a question? I mean for real. What next, ask dps warriors if D-stance, intervene and spell reflect added anything to their gameplay? Perhaps I am thinking about these more from a pvp POV, but even in my casual level these (and many more) are massive changes to the gameplay of the classes/specs that were not needed at all (the changes), not least because the abilities were completely optional for playing your spec at an acceptable level as a new/less skilled player.

Soothe doesnt add interesting gameplay at all (enrage on timer->soothe on timer), nor does hibernate.
Soothing a spell reflect works, but it doesnt make sense
Intervene was a sweet spell when used well. SR->intervene on a clone, SR on traps... (i hate spell reflect, but appreciate its beauty =P). mass reflect on the other hand...
Optional abilities are prime candidates for removal (or shifting to pvp tree), obviously depending on just how often they were used.

Im not agreeing with every spell that got removed. But the argument that classes were dumbed down to 3 buttons is a joke.

[Renley]

I'll always be a Hunter, but we were pretty heavily pruned/butchered.

Removed
Aspect of the Pack
Freezing Trap(SV Only)
Explosive Trap(SV Only)
Ice Trap(SV Only)
Masters Call
Tranq Shot
Kill Shot
Focus Fire

Moved to Talent
Camouflage

Butchered
Aspect of the Cheetah
Deterrence(Aspect of the Turtle)

I still love hunters, but oof. They got it hard, and are still in a reaaaaaaally rough spot.

[Fkiolaris]

Soothe doesnt add interesting gameplay at all FOR ME(enrage on timer->soothe on timer), nor does hibernate.
Soothing a spell reflect works, but it doesnt make sense
Intervene was a sweet spell when used well. SR->intervene on a clone, SR on traps... (i hate spell reflect, but appreciate its beauty =P). mass reflect on the other hand...
Optional abilities are prime candidates for removal (or shifting to pvp tree), obviously depending on just how often they were used.

Im not agreeing with every spell that got removed. But the argument that classes were dumbed down to 3 buttons is a joke.

Fixed that for you. All the abilities mentioned offer interesting and rewarding gameplay opportunities to a number of people, but because you don't use/like them then they are automatically "not interesting". I still can't believe that as a druid you are calling hibernate not interesting, a spell that exists as an internal counter within the class against the immunity to polymorph is not interesting apparently. So, a serious question then: what is interesting to you?

Also, optional abilities should never be the prime candidates for removal purely because they are just that, optional. If it's there and you don't have to use it in order to perform your role, but it has its situational uses if one wishes to include it in their bars, why does it bother you? Leave it for those players and be on your merry way.

[wing5wong]

I'll always be a Hunter, but we were pretty heavily pruned/butchered.

Removed
Aspect of the Pack
Freezing Trap(SV Only)
Explosive Trap(SV Only)
Ice Trap(SV Only)
Masters Call
Tranq Shot
Kill Shot
Focus Fire

Moved to Talent
Camouflage

Butchered
Aspect of the Cheetah
Deterrence(Aspect of the Turtle)

I still love hunters, but oof. They got it hard, and are still in a reaaaaaaally rough spot.

And no additions? i dont play hunter, but i think the idea is to get away from passive aspects to more active based. im sure some people wont agree with it. personally i like that idea more

[FelPlague]

Rogue is one of the least changed classes. Go read build notes. Do not spread misinformation.

and destruction changed from embers to soul shards.... so differant

aflicction dident change at all other then losing haunt baseline... so...

[wing5wong]

Fixed that for you. All the abilities mentioned offer interesting and rewarding gameplay opportunities to a number of people, but because you don't use/like them then they are automatically "not interesting". I still can't believe that as a druid you are calling hibernate not interesting, a spell that exists as an internal counter within the class against the immunity to polymorph is not interesting apparently. So, a serious question then: what is interesting to you?

Also, optional abilities should never be the prime candidates for removal purely because they are just that, optional. If it's there and you don't have to use it in order to perform your role, but it has its situational uses if one wishes to include it in their bars, why does it bother you? Leave it for those players and be on your merry way.

What interesting ability are you soothing? What reward are you getting from it?
What are you hibernating? the feral shifting out of every one? 1random mob in the world, then running away chuckling (HAHAH OMG LOL I MADE U SLEEP!?)?
Hibernate is used so rarely, its basically not worth having. CC Not needed in dungeons, CC not needed in world content (and only on beast). I cant remember the last time hibernate i used hibernate, when i have root and clone instead. Extra SS procs from root breaks, and it can take at least some damage. There is no situation i have been in where i even consider rooting, hibernating and cloning 3 targets. (Root and clone yes, adding the hibernate - no)

Interesting gameplay should comes from spell interactions, not a 1% use case.

I said optional abilities, depending on frequency of use, are optimal candidates for removal, not all optional abilities should be removed.
Optional abilities that make players confused because they never use them, but seem to need it on their bars, for some situation that might happen in some specific location are not good abilities.

- - - Updated - - -

and destruction changed from embers to soul shards.... so differant

aflicction dident change at all other then losing haunt baseline... so...

classes not getting mjaor overhauls is not a problem

[Renley]

And no additions? i dont play hunter, but i think the idea is to get away from passive aspects to more active based. im sure some people wont agree with it. personally i like that idea more

Not particularly. We got no CC to replace traps, and no CC clear to replace Master's Call. MM artifact does have a passive incremental speed boost for hunter and party, out of combat only, builds up over time. Cheetah is a 3 minute cooldown for 90% for 3 seconds, 30% for 6 seconds. Deterrence went from 2 charges, 2 min recharges, to 1 charge 3 min CD. We did get a baseline heal CD, which helps. MM and BMs rotation/rotation heavily reduced.

For BM, Arcane Shot(spender) removed, Cobra Shot now the spender, Dire Beast now builder. Nothing to replace Kill Shot or Focus Fire.
MM is basically just Arcane Shot/Multi to build focus, Marked Shot to mark, Aimed to dump. Nothing else(baseline). Nothing to replace Kill Shot or Chim Shot(which MM lost, went to BM as talent, but I guess Marked kind of replaces this).

I'm all for active aspects if they're good and worthwhile, but Cheetah got a horrible treatment, and Turtle is meh.

[FelPlague]

Warriors
Rogue
Paladins
Warlocks
Monks
Priests
Druids
Hunters
Shamans
Death Knights

maining warlock/dk i can 100% tell you, they ar both very fun and its good to get rid of some of those annoying spells adding in awesome ones like frostscythe, remorseless winter being mixed with death and decay is super cool